Discussion:
Interesting Quora - Why did Aztecs in the 1500's still not have metal---?
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a425couple
2021-08-02 15:59:16 UTC
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Susanna Viljanen
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Works at Aalto University Thu

Why did Aztecs in the 1500's still not have metal when they had metal
weapons in BC Bible times?

Because they did not have metallurgy.

The only metals the Aztecs had were gold, silver and copper. All those
are Ib group transition elements which are chemically very inert and can
appear in the nature as bare metals, and smelting copper ore is easy.

Metals are not something you just have. You have to first discover
metallurgy (the art of extracting metals from ores) and discover the
properties of the metals. Mind you the Ancients knew only seven metals
(Au, Ag, Cu, Fe, Pb, Hg, Sn) and one (Zn) as an alloy (but did not know
which metal it was).

Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and
mechanical utility.

So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.

Ferrometallurgy - the art of producing iron and steel - was brought in
Mesoamerica by the Spanish.

--------------------------

Chaso Kunmaka
Fri
Didn't Mexica also know how to melt lead (and tin, since how come the
bronze axes then)?


Jonathan Graifer
Fri
Tin on it's own isn't particularly useful without certain technologies,
so it's primary value for most of history was for use in bronze. Lead is
only useful on it's own for casting, all applications of which the
Mexica and other mesoamerican cultures had other, generally superior,
alternatives to; why bother mining and casting lead for sling bullets
when you have perfectly good stone and clay? Why make arrowheads out of
it when the only armor anybody uses is padded cotton soaked in saltwater
or cured hide, and obsidian is more than enough to deal with that?

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Gareth Adamson
Sat
Presumably, once metals start to be available there is an arms race as
they are used for both weapons and armour. But this was happening slowly
in the Americas because of the relatively low level of competition, i.e.
there weren’t many different powers wanting to fight each other. It
looks as though they were just about entering their bronze age, which
puts them about 4,500 years behind the main Eurasian powers.

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Jonathan Graifer
Sun
Eh, not exactly. They just didn't see any *need* to change how they did
things. As already noted, bronze axes were already a thing, and while
characterizing then as “novelties" isn't exactly correct, they just
didn't see any purpose in adapting bronze for warfare. After all, the
real benefit of bronze over stone is that you can make longer, more
durable blades…. But mesoamericans had already found a workaround for
that over a millenium before: short obsidian blades set in pitch-filled
grooves around the edge of wooden paddles. The macuahuital was all they
needed.

It's like asking why they never developed the wheel; they DID have it.
They used it for making pottery and on children's toys. It was never
needed for transportation because wheeled carts are only truly efficient
when paired with draft animals substantially stronger than a human.

The only domesticated draft animals native to the Americas were isolated
in the Andes, Llamas and Alpacas, both of which are as strong or barely
stronger than a human, and in places where narrow, winding roads are
prevalent. So in Peru you got runners or pack trains, while everyone
else made do with A-frame sledges, boats, or what they could carry.


Gareth Adamson
Sun
I think what this misses is the element of feedback when considering the
environment in which developments take place, especially in military
matters. The mountains aren’t changing, so you’re never going to have
much use for wheels. (At least not until you have motors to power them.)
But when it comes to arms, the environment is not static in the same
way, because the main consideration is: what does your opponent have? If
the opponent adopts a technological improvement, you must match or
better it, or face conquest.

This might happen quite slowly at first, but the more intense the
military competition, the greater the pressure towards technological
innovation.

Jonathan Graifer
Sun
But nobody adopted bronze for armor or weapons in the Americas. They
felt it wasn't needed, obsidian was better; took a better edge, was
readily available, and less work to maintain, so they didn't bother.

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Gareth Adamson
Sun
Yes, they were only at the very beginning of their bronze age. They
hadn’t yet found the optimum formula for bronze either.

Jonathan Graifer
4h ago
Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper
working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own
traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
this iron, but no means of producing their own.
Peter Jason
2021-08-02 21:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper
working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own
traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
this iron, but no means of producing their own.
The iron implements from Egyptian tombs may have come from meteorites.
a425couple
2021-08-03 15:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
Post by a425couple
Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper
working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own
traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
this iron, but no means of producing their own.
The iron implements from Egyptian tombs may have come from meteorites.
IF (!!) I recall correctly,
Someone did a study and found a number of the
best Viking swords had come from a big meteorite.

Hmmm, I can not find, but below is similar idea:

Ryuseito, the Meteor Swords, are the Japanese swords made from iron
meteorite in 1898. They were manufactured by Japanese notable swordsmith
Okayoshi Kunimune by the order of Viscount Enomoto Takeaki in Meiji period.

THE JAPANESE SWORDS MADE FROM SHIRAHAGI IRON ...
https://www.hou.usra.edu › metsoc2019 › pdfPDF

Splitting the Heavens: 4 Real Swords Made of Meteorites
https://www.ripleys.com › Weird News
Tentetsuou: The Sword of Heaven ... Forged from fragments of the
prehistoric Gibeon meteorite, Tentetsuou is a katana forged by
swordsmith ...
May 20, 2015 · Uploaded by AWE me

'Sword of Heaven' katana blade forged from meteorite - CNET
https://www.cnet.com › news › sword-of-heaven-katana...
May 18, 2015 — The "Sword of Heaven" is a blade fit for a space samurai.
The elegant katana blade is made with metal from an ancient meteorite.

Swords Forged From Meteorites - Ronin Katana
https://roninkatana.com › meteorite-swords
Ronin uses the crucible method of metal extraction from the meteorites.
The meteorites are smashed up, placed in stainless steel crucibles, and
heated until the ...

Here we go:

Meteoric Swords - Sword Buyers Guide
https://www.sword-buyers-guide.com › meteoric-swords
From the Mughal Emperor Jahangir, who 400 years ago actually saw the
meteorite fall from the sky and found it to have his blade made, to Tsar
Alexander ...
Aug 28, 2017 · Uploaded by AWE me

How useful is a sword made of meteoric steel? -
Quorahttps://www.quora.com › How-useful-is-a-sword-made-...
The composition would be highly variable between different meteors. This
focuses on how to find the rarest and valuable metal: iron, in the
bronze age! There ...
5 answers

·

Top answer:
Well, compared to modern steel, it would function significantly worse, and
SolomonW
2021-08-03 06:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and
mechanical utility.
Interesting that they knew of bronze.
Post by a425couple
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-03 14:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and
mechanical utility.
Interesting that they knew of bronze.
Did they "know" of bronze, or just have some?

That is, did they know that this metal, and that kind of
'dirt'/stone, when heated together made 'bronze'? Or did they just
know that this batch was different, and still usable for some values
of useable?
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
SolomonW
2021-08-04 06:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and
mechanical utility.
Interesting that they knew of bronze.
Did they "know" of bronze, or just have some?
That is, did they know that this metal, and that kind of
'dirt'/stone, when heated together made 'bronze'? Or did they just
know that this batch was different, and still usable for some values
of useable?
It appears that they did know about bronze.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/mesoamerican-copper-industry-of-connections

but there is always a but, precisely what they knew about it and what they
thought of it is disputed.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-07 15:04:53 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by SolomonW
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
Luke 14:31ff)
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
SolomonW
2021-08-08 00:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
[snip]
Post by SolomonW
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
Luke 14:31ff)
In practice one hears far too often,

“If one Rebel can whip 10 Yankees, how many Yankees can two Rebels whip?"

'We have only to kick in the front door and the whole rotten edifice will
come tumbling down'
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-08 20:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Post by pyotr filipivich
[snip]
Post by SolomonW
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by SolomonW
Post by a425couple
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
Luke 14:31ff)
In practice one hears far too often,
´If one Rebel can whip 10 Yankees, how many Yankees can two Rebels whip?"
'We have only to kick in the front door and the whole rotten edifice will
come tumbling down'
Ayup.

Another given is that wars are most often "stumbled into" when
there is an apparent equality of forces and one side assumes that
their superior morale / elan / ideology / brand of sausage will
overcome any other lack.
Or, the invaders are unaware of a "small minor detail" which is
not so small, minor or a detail. E.G. the effectiveness of the T-34,
the ability of the Chinese to field a large army in Korea without
UNKOR forces (I.e., MacArthur) knowing about it. Etc.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
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