Discussion:
ISOT: France of November 9, 1799 moves to 1522.
(too old to reply)
Alex Milman
2018-02-18 19:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Next day after the coup of the 18th Brumaire (or after 7 February 1800, when the Consulate is established) population of the French Republic finds out some interesting facts:

(a) Everybody outside the borders thinks that the year is 1522 and dresses and behaves accordingly.

(b) The borders of the French Republic suddenly shrunk to those of the 1792 (pre-revolutionary: no Netherlands, no border on the Rhine).

(c) The French troops which had been fighting outside these borders are somehow transported back to France with the exception of those stuck in Egypt.

(d) There is a recently elected Hapsburg Emperor, Charles V, who is also a King of Spain and does not have any intention to honor the peace between Spain and the French Republic. Most of Italy is occupied (as was expected) by the imperial troops but the spies are reporting that these troops look more than a little bit "backward" even for the Austrians.

(e) Somehow, there are no British ships annoying hanging outside the French ports (or at any other point to be seen).

(f) The Netherlands (including Austrian Netherlands) belong to the Hapsburg Emperor/King.

(g) Name of the Ottoman Sultan is Suleiman (just started couple years earlier so probably not, yet, "Magnificient").

How much fun everybody is going to have and in which order? :-)
Rob
2018-02-20 04:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Everybody outside the borders thinks that the year is 1522 and dresses and behaves accordingly.
(b) The borders of the French Republic suddenly shrunk to those of the 1792 (pre-revolutionary: no Netherlands, no border on the Rhine).
(c) The French troops which had been fighting outside these borders are somehow transported back to France with the exception of those stuck in Egypt.
(d) There is a recently elected Hapsburg Emperor, Charles V, who is also a King of Spain and does not have any intention to honor the peace between Spain and the French Republic. Most of Italy is occupied (as was expected) by the imperial troops but the spies are reporting that these troops look more than a little bit "backward" even for the Austrians.
(e) Somehow, there are no British ships annoying hanging outside the French ports (or at any other point to be seen).
(f) The Netherlands (including Austrian Netherlands) belong to the Hapsburg Emperor/King.
(g) Name of the Ottoman Sultan is Suleiman (just started couple years earlier so probably not, yet, "Magnificient").
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which order? :-)
The only people having fun in this scenario are the French. The ensemble of Charles I and other states of the HRE and Italy, will be France's first chew toys. Then the French will rebuild their navy so they can "play" with England and Portugal, and take over all the action in the Americas and eastern trade routes. To ratfuck England, the first French move will be to send a shipment of 1800-era weapons and a military training mission to Scotland.
Alex Milman
2018-02-20 19:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Everybody outside the borders thinks that the year is 1522 and dresses and behaves accordingly.
(b) The borders of the French Republic suddenly shrunk to those of the 1792 (pre-revolutionary: no Netherlands, no border on the Rhine).
(c) The French troops which had been fighting outside these borders are somehow transported back to France with the exception of those stuck in Egypt.
(d) There is a recently elected Hapsburg Emperor, Charles V, who is also a King of Spain and does not have any intention to honor the peace between Spain and the French Republic. Most of Italy is occupied (as was expected) by the imperial troops but the spies are reporting that these troops look more than a little bit "backward" even for the Austrians.
(e) Somehow, there are no British ships annoying hanging outside the French ports (or at any other point to be seen).
(f) The Netherlands (including Austrian Netherlands) belong to the Hapsburg Emperor/King.
(g) Name of the Ottoman Sultan is Suleiman (just started couple years earlier so probably not, yet, "Magnificient").
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which order? :-)
The only people having fun in this scenario are the French.
Well, in this context "fun" is a variation of Pratchett's "highly enjoyable". :-)
Post by Rob
The ensemble of Charles I
He was Carlos I of Spain but other than that he was Charles V. :-)
Post by Rob
and other states of the HRE and Italy, will be France's first chew toys.
Indeed. We'll have something like campaign of 1800 but one a wider front: besides Germany, the Netherlands would be taken care of.

So, in OTL French had:

Army of the Rhine - 137K under command of Moreau (in ATL located on the French border; part of it would go to the Netherlands)
Army of Italy - 40K under the 1st Consul (not sure if that number includes 18K under Massena; probably yes - siege of Genoa started in April of 1800 and we are in February).

Plus, there is (magically transferred to the French territory) Army of Orient - 45K

To say that opposition's numbers and quality are negligible would be a gross understatement.

So it is probably reasonable to assume that the borders are the same as those of the French Empire at its biggest extent.

Would the 1st Consul care about changing his own title and dismantling the HRE? Probably he will.

Would he care about reshuffling the borders in Germany and Italy along the lines similar to OTL?

Situation with the Hapsburgs is interesting: Hungary is still an independent state in a personal union with the Kingdom of Bohemia (which at that time was not a part of the HRE), both ruled by King Louis II Jagiellon. So, acting similarly to OTL Nappy leaves Hapsburgs with MUCH smaller territory outside Spain.

Now, the interesting part starts. In OTL Battle of Mohács (1526) resulted in occupation of a big part of Hungary by the Ottomans but also triggered Hapsburg claim to these kingdoms (Louis did not have legitimate children so Archduke Ferdinand was elected as his successor in the Kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary). Now, _this_ would hardly sit well with Nappy so there are couple plausible scenarios:

(a) After ..er.. "settling the German affairs", aka leaving Hapsburgs in Germany only with their hereditary lands (or less) Nappy makes a mutual defense treaty with Louis of Bohemia and Hungary making him a de facto vassal of France. The Ottomans (Suleiman) are warned but are not paying attention and while in 1526 they still manage to defeat Louis II at Mohacs (the French are still on the march and in OTL Louis was fool enough not to wait even for the Transylvanian contingents), the triumph is short-lived: the French troops are arriving at the theater of war. Probably 40 - 50K would be more than enough not only to defeat the Ottoman army circa 1526 (50 - 70K with 200 guns) but also to march successfully all the way to Istanbul. Hungary is liberated (with Serbia, etc.) and one of Nappy's brothers is made a king. Bohemian throne is also vacant (except for the pathetic Hapsburg claim to which nobody pays attention) and, fortunately, Nappy has more than one brother.

(b) Nappy does not mind Suleiman's attack on Hungary and uses the opportunity to make Joseph King of Bohemia (and to squash any Hapsburg claim to Hungary).

Then it is Spain's turn: Carlos I is an enemy (unless Charles V completely capitulates) so it is up to Nappy to either play OTL scenario by making one of his brothers King of Spain or just to make a peace humiliating Spain (for example, taking away the territories which are going to be profitable (with a benefit of a hindsight). Peru is not yet conquered by Spain so we are talking about Mexico, Panama and the Caribbean islands.
Post by Rob
Then the French will rebuild their navy so they can "play" with England and Portugal, and take over all the action in the Americas and eastern trade routes.
To ratfuck
Do you care to supply details? :-)
Post by Rob
England, the > French move will be to send a shipment of 1800-era weapons and a military training mission to Scotland.
I suspect that even without serious rebuilding they may still have enough to just land in England and to do as many nasty things as they want. Training Scots would be excessive, just as they are, they would be an useful addition to the French expeditionary force. How many French troops would be needed to force Henry VIII to capitulate?


Now, how about the Eastern policies? Specifically:

(a) Relations with the Ottomans and possible new conquest of Egypt.

(b) Greater plans for getting to India (and then what? applying OTL French model or the British one)


Americas: Sending French squadron and 10 - 30K to the Caribbean to capture the islands, Panama and reconquer the former Aztec empire from the Spaniards. Then extend conquests to include Peru. Would Nappy care about the byproducts of importing the big amounts of the precious metals to Europe?
Rob
2018-02-24 03:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Everybody outside the borders thinks that the year is 1522 and dresses and behaves accordingly.
(b) The borders of the French Republic suddenly shrunk to those of the 1792 (pre-revolutionary: no Netherlands, no border on the Rhine).
(c) The French troops which had been fighting outside these borders are somehow transported back to France with the exception of those stuck in Egypt.
(d) There is a recently elected Hapsburg Emperor, Charles V, who is also a King of Spain and does not have any intention to honor the peace between Spain and the French Republic. Most of Italy is occupied (as was expected) by the imperial troops but the spies are reporting that these troops look more than a little bit "backward" even for the Austrians.
(e) Somehow, there are no British ships annoying hanging outside the French ports (or at any other point to be seen).
(f) The Netherlands (including Austrian Netherlands) belong to the Hapsburg Emperor/King.
(g) Name of the Ottoman Sultan is Suleiman (just started couple years earlier so probably not, yet, "Magnificient").
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which order? :-)
The only people having fun in this scenario are the French.
Well, in this context "fun" is a variation of Pratchett's "highly enjoyable". :-)
Post by Rob
The ensemble of Charles I
He was Carlos I of Spain but other than that he was Charles V. :-)
Post by Rob
and other states of the HRE and Italy, will be France's first chew toys.
Indeed. We'll have something like campaign of 1800 but one a wider front: besides Germany, the Netherlands would be taken care of.
Army of the Rhine - 137K under command of Moreau (in ATL located on the French border; part of it would go to the Netherlands)
Army of Italy - 40K under the 1st Consul (not sure if that number includes 18K under Massena; probably yes - siege of Genoa started in April of 1800 and we are in February).
Plus, there is (magically transferred to the French territory) Army of Orient - 45K
To say that opposition's numbers and quality are negligible would be a gross understatement.
So it is probably reasonable to assume that the borders are the same as those of the French Empire at its biggest extent.
Would the 1st Consul care about changing his own title and dismantling the HRE? Probably he will.
Would he care about reshuffling the borders in Germany and Italy along the lines similar to OTL?
Situation with the Hapsburgs is interesting: Hungary is still an independent state in a personal union with the Kingdom of Bohemia (which at that time was not a part of the HRE), both ruled by King Louis II Jagiellon. So, acting similarly to OTL Nappy leaves Hapsburgs with MUCH smaller territory outside Spain.
(a) After ..er.. "settling the German affairs", aka leaving Hapsburgs in Germany only with their hereditary lands (or less) Nappy makes a mutual defense treaty with Louis of Bohemia and Hungary making him a de facto vassal of France. The Ottomans (Suleiman) are warned but are not paying attention and while in 1526 they still manage to defeat Louis II at Mohacs (the French are still on the march and in OTL Louis was fool enough not to wait even for the Transylvanian contingents), the triumph is short-lived: the French troops are arriving at the theater of war. Probably 40 - 50K would be more than enough not only to defeat the Ottoman army circa 1526 (50 - 70K with 200 guns) but also to march successfully all the way to Istanbul. Hungary is liberated (with Serbia, etc.) and one of Nappy's brothers is made a king. Bohemian throne is also vacant (except for the pathetic Hapsburg claim to which nobody pays attention) and, fortunately, Nappy has more than one brother.
(b) Nappy does not mind Suleiman's attack on Hungary and uses the opportunity to make Joseph King of Bohemia (and to squash any Hapsburg claim to Hungary).
Then it is Spain's turn: Carlos I is an enemy (unless Charles V completely capitulates) so it is up to Nappy to either play OTL scenario by making one of his brothers King of Spain or just to make a peace humiliating Spain (for example, taking away the territories which are going to be profitable (with a benefit of a hindsight). Peru is not yet conquered by Spain so we are talking about Mexico, Panama and the Caribbean islands.
Post by Rob
Then the French will rebuild their navy so they can "play" with England and Portugal, and take over all the action in the Americas and eastern trade routes.
To ratfuck
Do you care to supply details? :-)
Post by Rob
England, the > French move will be to send a shipment of 1800-era weapons and a military training mission to Scotland.
I suspect that even without serious rebuilding they may still have enough to just land in England and to do as many nasty things as they want. Training Scots would be excessive, just as they are, they would be an useful addition to the French expeditionary force. How many French troops would be needed to force Henry VIII to capitulate?
(a) Relations with the Ottomans and possible new conquest of Egypt.
(b) Greater plans for getting to India (and then what? applying OTL French model or the British one)
Americas: Sending French squadron and 10 - 30K to the Caribbean to capture the islands, Panama and reconquer the former Aztec empire from the Spaniards. Then extend conquests to include Peru. Would Nappy care about the byproducts of importing the big amounts of the precious metals to Europe?
A neat set of ideas here.

Although it would not be at all the reason for French action in the Americas, a "side benefit" of 1799 France doing the conquest of the Americas would probably much, much greater study and conservation of the conquered Amerindian cultures, especially the more complex ones like Aztec, Maya and Inca.
Alex Milman
2018-02-20 19:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Everybody outside the borders thinks that the year is 1522 and dresses and behaves accordingly.
(b) The borders of the French Republic suddenly shrunk to those of the 1792 (pre-revolutionary: no Netherlands, no border on the Rhine).
(c) The French troops which had been fighting outside these borders are somehow transported back to France with the exception of those stuck in Egypt.
(d) There is a recently elected Hapsburg Emperor, Charles V, who is also a King of Spain and does not have any intention to honor the peace between Spain and the French Republic. Most of Italy is occupied (as was expected) by the imperial troops but the spies are reporting that these troops look more than a little bit "backward" even for the Austrians.
(e) Somehow, there are no British ships annoying hanging outside the French ports (or at any other point to be seen).
(f) The Netherlands (including Austrian Netherlands) belong to the Hapsburg Emperor/King.
(g) Name of the Ottoman Sultan is Suleiman (just started couple years earlier so probably not, yet, "Magnificient").
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which order? :-)
Rich Rostrom
2018-02-28 21:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which
order? :-)
Once the dust settles, there will be overwhelming sentiment
in France for overthrowing every king in Europe, and
dismantling the Catholic Church. In short, _messianic_
republicanism.

UT French ideas will spread through Europe like wildfire.
The idea of _no king at all_ will be first shocking, then
exhilarating to many.

The Church is ripe for reformation, too.

However, there will be many who are horrified by the UT
ideas, and regard UT France as agents of the Devil.

French armies will be greatly superior to DT troops -
but not as much as one might think, especially over
long campaigns. There will be lots of fanatical
guerrilla resistance and resulting attrition; also,
attrition due to camp diseases and such.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Alex Milman
2018-03-01 00:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Alex Milman
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which
order? :-)
Once the dust settles, there will be overwhelming sentiment
in France for overthrowing every king in Europe, and
dismantling the Catholic Church. In short, _messianic_
republicanism.
Well, by that time (end of 1799) the French public and government got slightly tired of the excessively revolutionary ideas (made peace with more than one monarchy and executed practically all dedicated revolutionaries) so it is probably realistic to expect a slightly more moderate approach to the situation. I'd say more emphasis of taking an advantage in the terms of extensive looting ("I'll lead you into the richest areas of Europe!" type of thing). :-)

Of course, your idea is also interesting.
Post by Rich Rostrom
UT French ideas will spread through Europe like wildfire.
Aren't they a little bit premature for the early XVI?
Post by Rich Rostrom
The idea of _no king at all_ will be first shocking, then
exhilarating to many.
Yeah (there were already few republics here and there) but the ideas about equality of ALL animals could be a little bit too much.
Post by Rich Rostrom
The Church is ripe for reformation, too.
But not for being completely abolished: we are talking about 1799.
Post by Rich Rostrom
However, there will be many who are horrified by the UT
ideas, and regard UT France as agents of the Devil.
That's quite likely. In OTL a reasonably progressive constitution introduced by Nappy had been hated in Spain.
Post by Rich Rostrom
French armies will be greatly superior to DT troops -
but not as much as one might think, especially over
long campaigns.
IF there are long campaigns. In OTL Nappy made a mistake of getting to Spain but all his other campaigns prior to 1812 had been quite short.
Post by Rich Rostrom
There will be lots of fanatical
guerrilla resistance and resulting attrition; also,
attrition due to camp diseases and such.
This is important only in the scenario of a world revolution but if Nappy limits himself to the OTL expansions leaving many of the local rulers in their places then situation is not too desperate.
Rob
2018-03-01 01:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Alex Milman
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which
order? :-)
Once the dust settles, there will be overwhelming sentiment
in France for overthrowing every king in Europe, and
dismantling the Catholic Church. In short, _messianic_
republicanism.
An overwhelming sentiment in Paris and among the Directory probably - not necessarily the French populace, which had more Catholic and Royalist sentiments---------

But, Paris will direct what the country does.
Post by Rich Rostrom
UT French ideas will spread through Europe like wildfire.
The idea of _no king at all_ will be first shocking, then
exhilarating to many.
The Church is ripe for reformation, too.
However, there will be many who are horrified by the UT
ideas, and regard UT France as agents of the Devil.
French armies will be greatly superior to DT troops -
but not as much as one might think, especially over
long campaigns. There will be lots of fanatical
guerrilla resistance and resulting attrition; also,
attrition due to camp diseases and such.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Alex Milman
2018-03-01 19:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Alex Milman
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which
order? :-)
Once the dust settles, there will be overwhelming sentiment
in France for overthrowing every king in Europe, and
dismantling the Catholic Church. In short, _messianic_
republicanism.
An overwhelming sentiment in Paris and among the Directory probably - not necessarily the French populace, which had more Catholic and Royalist sentiments---------
But, Paris will direct what the country does.
By the end of 1799 the _messianic_ republicanism was pretty much dead in France in general and in Paris specifically (where it was "dead" literally).

And, as far as I can tell, by that time it was completely dead in the army. You would not find too much, if anything, related to the "revolutionary spirit" in the memoirs written by such people coming from the opposite poles of a social spectrum as Baron de Marbot (social top) and Marie-Thérèse Figueur (social bottom, the only _officially recognized_ woman who served in the armies of the Republic and Empire, personally knew many of the marshals and was probably the only person who kept addressing Napoleon as "my general").
Rich Rostrom
2018-03-02 16:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
By the end of 1799 the _messianic_ republicanism was
pretty much dead in France in general and in Paris
specifically (where it was "dead" literally).
And, as far as I can tell, by that time it was
completely dead in the army.
But Republican France has just been _miraculously_
given the power to spread republicanism everywhere.
Miracles have a way of affecting peoples' thinking;
especially great big miracles.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Alex Milman
2018-03-02 17:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Alex Milman
By the end of 1799 the _messianic_ republicanism was
pretty much dead in France in general and in Paris
specifically (where it was "dead" literally).
And, as far as I can tell, by that time it was
completely dead in the army.
But Republican France has just been _miraculously_
given the power to spread republicanism everywhere.
It is your interpretation which has little to do with the initial premise. As far as the people circa 1799 were involved, France was given a miraculous power to loot the rest of Europe (and of the known world) with impunity.

As usually, you are not paying attention to the dates: the "miracle" happened AFTER the coup of "the 18th Brumaire". The true ideologists are dead and "messianic" thingy is closely associated with the Terror, which nobody wants back. Directorate already had diplomatic relations with the monarchies. There is a short political struggle between Bonaparte and Sieyès, none of whom was excessively dedicated to the "messianic" republican ideals and the rest of those who mattered were not noticeably better.

Even Paul I almost immediately grasped the situation and, after the Consulate was established, wrote that France got a itself a king in anything but name and got out of the anti-French coalition.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Miracles have a way of affecting peoples' thinking;
especially great big miracles.
Yes, especially when they allow to get rich with a minimal effort.
a***@gmail.com
2018-03-17 13:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Everybody outside the borders thinks that the year is 1522 and dresses and behaves accordingly.
(b) The borders of the French Republic suddenly shrunk to those of the 1792 (pre-revolutionary: no Netherlands, no border on the Rhine).
(c) The French troops which had been fighting outside these borders are somehow transported back to France with the exception of those stuck in Egypt.
(d) There is a recently elected Hapsburg Emperor, Charles V, who is also a King of Spain and does not have any intention to honor the peace between Spain and the French Republic. Most of Italy is occupied (as was expected) by the imperial troops but the spies are reporting that these troops look more than a little bit "backward" even for the Austrians.
(e) Somehow, there are no British ships annoying hanging outside the French ports (or at any other point to be seen).
(f) The Netherlands (including Austrian Netherlands) belong to the Hapsburg Emperor/King.
(g) Name of the Ottoman Sultan is Suleiman (just started couple years earlier so probably not, yet, "Magnificient").
How much fun everybody is going to have and in which order? :-)
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