Franco, Austrian, Prussian War

[Alex Milman]

France manages to get into the OTL Austro-Prussian War on Austrian side and to do this fast enough to make this participation meaningful.

[Insane Ranter]

Post by Alex Milman
France manages to get into the OTL Austro-Prussian War on Austrian side and to do this fast enough to make this participation meaningful.

With Napoleon III on the throne still? Is he still inept and only has the ~200k troops in Europe? France gets crushed still..

[Alex Milman]

Post by Insane Ranter

Post by Alex Milman
France manages to get into the OTL Austro-Prussian War on Austrian side and to do this fast enough to make this participation meaningful.

With Napoleon III on the throne still? Is he still inept and only has the ~200k troops in Europe? France gets crushed still..

After the OTL Austro-Prussian War it was computed that France can field 288K for war against Prussia. However, in this scenario these troops are add to the existing Austrian numbers, which could make a substantial difference. In OTL Prussia had 437K and Italy (its ally) 200K against 517K (407K Austria and the rest its German allies). Adding 280K of the French soldiers would shift the numbers into Austrian favor and I was under the impression that weapons-wise the French at that time were not behind the Prussians and probably better trained because NIII had a professional army.

Prussians still may win due to a better generalship but if Napoleon III is not trying to lead the troops, then Austro-French coalition may have a chance.

In OTL the Austrians defeated Italians at Custoza (75K Austrians vs. 120K Italians) but Archduke Albrecht did not pursue Italians decisively partially out of fear of the French intervention. With the "French factor" gone, Italy is in a much worse situation or it may not even ally with Prussia if France is on Austrian side.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Alex Milman
Italy is in a much worse situation or it may not
even ally with Prussia if France is on Austrian
side.

Very good point.

[Rich Rostrom]

Italy ... may not even ally with Prussia if France
is on Austrian side.

This also raises the question of whether the minor
German states line up as OTL. Will more take the
side of Austria, given the additional support of
France? Or will resentment of French intervention
cause more to adhere to Prussia?

Speaking of lesser German states - Hanover fought
on the Austrian side, and even won a battle against
some Prussian troops.

_If_ France acted quickly, could France support
Hanover, and perhaps enable Hanover to hold out?
This would be a huge problem for Prussia.

[Alex Milman]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Italy ... may not even ally with Prussia if France
is on Austrian side.

This also raises the question of whether the minor
German states line up as OTL. Will more take the
side of Austria, given the additional support of
France? Or will resentment of French intervention
cause more to adhere to Prussia?

In any case would it make a critical difference?

Post by Rich Rostrom
Speaking of lesser German states - Hanover fought
on the Austrian side, and even won a battle against
some Prussian troops.
_If_ France acted quickly, could France support
Hanover, and perhaps enable Hanover to hold out?

The same goes for Bavaria.

Post by Rich Rostrom
This would be a huge problem for Prussia.

Anyway, having 250 - 300K of the high quality professional troops _rapidly_ advancing toward the Prussian flank (and, if Italy is neutral extra 70K Austrians available against Prussia) should make a serious difference: Moltke's OTL plan would probably look too risky to the German high command.

[Rob]

Post by Alex Milman

Post by Rich Rostrom

Italy ... may not even ally with Prussia if France
is on Austrian side.

This also raises the question of whether the minor
German states line up as OTL. Will more take the
side of Austria, given the additional support of
France? Or will resentment of French intervention
cause more to adhere to Prussia?

In any case would it make a critical difference?

Post by Rich Rostrom
Speaking of lesser German states - Hanover fought
on the Austrian side, and even won a battle against
some Prussian troops.
_If_ France acted quickly, could France support
Hanover, and perhaps enable Hanover to hold out?

The same goes for Bavaria.

Post by Rich Rostrom
This would be a huge problem for Prussia.

Anyway, having 250 - 300K of the high quality professional troops _rapidly_ advancing toward the Prussian flank (and, if Italy is neutral extra 70K Austrians available against Prussia) should make a serious difference: Moltke's OTL plan would probably look too risky to the German high command.

A timely intervention could make a negative difference for Prussia.

How likely is Russia to intervene militarily or diplomatically to reduce Prussian losses and Austrian gains? It's often said they had some sort of agreement to help Prussia.

[Alex Milman]

Post by Rob

Post by Alex Milman

Post by Rich Rostrom

Italy ... may not even ally with Prussia if France
is on Austrian side.

This also raises the question of whether the minor
German states line up as OTL. Will more take the
side of Austria, given the additional support of
France? Or will resentment of French intervention
cause more to adhere to Prussia?

In any case would it make a critical difference?

Post by Rich Rostrom
Speaking of lesser German states - Hanover fought
on the Austrian side, and even won a battle against
some Prussian troops.
_If_ France acted quickly, could France support
Hanover, and perhaps enable Hanover to hold out?

The same goes for Bavaria.

Post by Rich Rostrom
This would be a huge problem for Prussia.

Anyway, having 250 - 300K of the high quality professional troops _rapidly_ advancing toward the Prussian flank (and, if Italy is neutral extra 70K Austrians available against Prussia) should make a serious difference: Moltke's OTL plan would probably look too risky to the German high command.

A timely intervention could make a negative difference for Prussia.
How likely is Russia to intervene militarily or diplomatically to reduce Prussian losses and Austrian gains? It's often said they had some sort of agreement to help Prussia.

At this specific time Russia had enough of its own problems including a need to rebuild its army.

[Rob]

Post by Alex Milman
France manages to get into the OTL Austro-Prussian War on Austrian side and to do this fast enough to make this participation meaningful.

Even if Napoleon III intervenes and loses badly, it would still be quite "meaningful" for Europe :)

But so would him stalemating or defeating Prussia.

I wonder if it could bog down, last long and get "trenchy" like the eastern theater ACW or WWI.