Troy

Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
NAMASTE
Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Graham Truesdale

2018-03-05 22:51:08 UTC

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

Graham Truesdale

2018-03-05 22:52:59 UTC

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

IOW, if it does, presumably its portrayal of them has never ceased to be influential?

Alex Milman

2018-03-06 17:31:45 UTC

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

IOW, if it does, presumably its portrayal of them has never ceased to be influential?

Wrong presumption: the Latin tradition prevailed all the way to Shakespeare's times.

Pete Barrett

2018-03-06 18:27:44 UTC

Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published
“Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
NAMASTE
Please GOTO
http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman
Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus
and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

IOW, if it does, presumably its portrayal of them has never ceased to be influential?

Wrong presumption: the Latin tradition prevailed all the way to Shakespeare's times.

Not surprising - knowledge of Greek was pretty rare in western Europe
during the Middle Ages, while knowledge of Latin was much more common.
The attitude to Troy ultimately derives from Latin traditions, which saw
the Trojans as their own progenitors, and therefore (obviously) much
nobler than their opponents. Geoffrey of Monmouth and Snorri Sturluson
both derived the origins of their own peoples from the Trojans, not the
Greeks.

So if knowledge of Greek - and particularly of Homer - hadn't been lost
in western Europe, would the attitude to Troy which, as you say,
prevailed until the 16th century (would the first modern western European
literary work deriving from the Greek, rather than the Latin, tradition
of the Trojan War be Monteverdi's _Ritorno d'Ulisse in Patria_?), would
Greeks like Achilles be a bit more respected in medieval European
literature? (I note that Hector, but not any of the Greeks involved, was
one of the None Worthies.)

--
Pete BARRETT

pyotr filipivich

2018-03-06 23:01:22 UTC

Post by Alex Milman
Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

IOW, if it does, presumably its portrayal of them has never ceased to be influential?

Wrong presumption: the Latin tradition prevailed all the way to Shakespeare's times.

It is interesting the number of peoples who claim some lineage
from Troy. The Romans, the pre-Roman Britons, and some of the
pre-Norman residents that I know of.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

The Horny Goat

2018-03-07 01:33:20 UTC

On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 15:01:22 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by pyotr filipivich
It is interesting the number of peoples who claim some lineage
from Troy. The Romans, the pre-Roman Britons, and some of the
pre-Norman residents that I know of.

In fairness the Brits claimed to be descended from EVERYBODY - Blake's
Jerusalem being a classic example. Great poetry but historical bovine
kaka.

pyotr filipivich

2018-03-07 17:25:50 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 15:01:22 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by pyotr filipivich
It is interesting the number of peoples who claim some lineage
from Troy. The Romans, the pre-Roman Britons, and some of the
pre-Norman residents that I know of.

In fairness the Brits claimed to be descended from EVERYBODY - Blake's
Jerusalem being a classic example. Great poetry but historical bovine
kaka.

Ah, but it is their founding story.

Which means that the British expansion and empire can be seen as a
"restoration" of their former Trojan, et alia, lands and such.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

The Horny Goat

2018-03-08 05:18:49 UTC

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 09:25:50 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by The Horny Goat
In fairness the Brits claimed to be descended from EVERYBODY - Blake's
Jerusalem being a classic example. Great poetry but historical bovine
kaka.

Ah, but it is their founding story.
Which means that the British expansion and empire can be seen as a
"restoration" of their former Trojan, et alia, lands and such.

I am pretty sure Blake's poem / story had to do with Jesus Christ. I'm
pretty sure none of that concerns any personage associated with Troy
other than the fact that Troy's heyday pretty much lines up with the
days of the early Kings of Israel.

pyotr filipivich

2018-03-08 16:53:01 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 09:25:50 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by The Horny Goat
In fairness the Brits claimed to be descended from EVERYBODY - Blake's
Jerusalem being a classic example. Great poetry but historical bovine
kaka.

Ah, but it is their founding story.
Which means that the British expansion and empire can be seen as a
"restoration" of their former Trojan, et alia, lands and such.

I'm pretty sure that what the English did starting in the 1700's
has as much to do with Troy as oh what the United States did 1791 et
sequelia.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

The Horny Goat

2018-03-09 00:09:59 UTC

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:53:01 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by pyotr filipivich
Which means that the British expansion and empire can be seen as a
"restoration" of their former Trojan, et alia, lands and such.

I'm pretty sure that what the English did starting in the 1700's
has as much to do with Troy as oh what the United States did 1791 et
sequelia.

Glad you understood that was my key point.

I suppose you could do a 1200BC -> 1916 ISOT and put Troy (relatively
close to Gallipoli) there and give both the Aussies and Turks the
surprise of their lives but that's silly and not worth the effort!.

pyotr filipivich

2018-03-09 00:42:51 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:53:01 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by pyotr filipivich
Which means that the British expansion and empire can be seen as a
"restoration" of their former Trojan, et alia, lands and such.

I'm pretty sure that what the English did starting in the 1700's
has as much to do with Troy as oh what the United States did 1791 et
sequelia.

Glad you understood that was my key point.
I suppose you could do a 1200BC -> 1916 ISOT and put Troy (relatively
close to Gallipoli) there and give both the Aussies and Turks the
surprise of their lives but that's silly and not worth the effort!.

Hmmm - that could be interesting - a third force, and "infidels"
to both of the modern powers.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

Alex Milman

2018-03-09 17:59:52 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:53:01 -0800, pyotr filipivich

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by pyotr filipivich
Which means that the British expansion and empire can be seen as a
"restoration" of their former Trojan, et alia, lands and such.

I'm pretty sure that what the English did starting in the 1700's
has as much to do with Troy as oh what the United States did 1791 et
sequelia.

Glad you understood that was my key point.
I suppose you could do a 1200BC -> 1916 ISOT and put Troy (relatively
close to Gallipoli) there and give both the Aussies and Turks the
surprise of their lives but that's silly and not worth the effort!.

A tiny city of a bronze age in the midst of WWI... "The Troy stars and ... winning because both the Aussies and Turks are too busy laughing..."

SolomonW

2018-03-06 11:54:36 UTC

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

Homer has heroes on both sides; the Greeks are certainly not portrayed as
the good guys.

Alex Milman

2018-03-06 17:42:15 UTC

Post by SolomonW

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

Homer has heroes on both sides; the Greeks are certainly not portrayed as
the good guys.

Definition of a "good guy" changed over time so this is pretty much pointless.

In "Iliad" the Greeks have their heroes and so are the Trojans (the "hero" is a person with the above average skills in killing others). In many cases (take Odysseus) they are a little bit more complicated than Batman, Captain America or Wonder Woman. But if you bother to read "Troilus and Cressida" as an illustration of the early modern (or whatever) European tradition the Greeks in the play are caricatures while the Trojans are noble: Homer's complicated personages are replaced by black and white cartoon figures.

pyotr filipivich

2018-03-07 16:55:32 UTC

Post by SolomonW

Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published Trojan Truth by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

Homer has heroes on both sides; the Greeks are certainly not portrayed as
the good guys.

Definition of a "good guy" changed over time so this is pretty much pointless.

Nahh.

Good guys = Us.
Bad guys = Them.

Or vice versa.

(See sig.)

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them, Selecting the new Them

Alex Milman

2018-03-06 17:30:23 UTC

Oh, please, the Trojans as the heroes were in place since the Roman Republic and all the way to the early modern times. Read "Troilus and Cressida" by Shakespeare.

Does Homer's Iliad cast the Greeks as heroes?

Of course, he did.

a425couple

2018-03-06 19:07:31 UTC

Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee. --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.

Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?

They lost.
And what did they do to improve the world?
What good ideals did they represent?

What did they ever do for USC football?

How come we have no teams named for the Carthaginians?
How about the Visgoths?
Athenieans? Persians? Goths?
Huns? Franks? Slavs? Saxons?
Hittites?

(Yes, yes, I do realize Vikings and Vandals are
properly remembered.)

Alex Milman

2018-03-06 19:34:00 UTC

Post by a425couple

Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee. --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.

Are you sure that a majority of those giving/using these names are aware of this fact? Or know that "Trojan horse" is not something invented by the Trojans?

Post by a425couple
And what did they do to improve the world?
What good ideals did they represent?
What did they ever do for USC football?

Why would anybody has to do anything for something THAT ugly? :-)

Post by a425couple
How come we have no teams named for the Carthaginians?
How about the Visgoths?
Athenieans? Persians? Goths?

Why the only way to commemorate someone is by a name of a sport team?

As soon as you see the weird-looking youngsters in black with a lot of piercing and dark make-up, you have your Goths. :-)

Post by a425couple
Huns? Franks? Slavs? Saxons?
Hittites?
(Yes, yes, I do realize Vikings and Vandals are
properly remembered.)

Based upon your own list of the used names you can come to a conclusion that doing something good is NOT a prerequisite for being remembered. :-)

e***@gmail.com

2018-03-17 12:54:10 UTC