Discussion:
Hitler dies in April 1939 and WWII never occurs; how does Bohemia look after decades of Nazi rule?
(too old to reply)
WolfBear
2018-03-11 02:15:22 UTC
Permalink
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words, Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after decades of Nazi rule?

After all, in a no-World War II TL, Bohemia is one of the few non-German-majority territories that are under Nazi rule. Thus, are the Nazis going to try flooding Bohemia with ethnic Germans and forcibly Germanizing Bohemia's ethnic Czech population, or what?
Rich Rostrom
2018-03-12 04:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and
World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear
to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler
was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words,
Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after
decades of Nazi rule?
This assumes that the Nazi regime survives for
decades. Without Hitler, its emotional hold on the
German people is weaker; and as of 1939, Germany
was approaching grave economic difficulties.
Post by WolfBear
After all, in a no-World War II TL, Bohemia is one
of the few non-German-majority territories that are
under Nazi rule. Thus, are the Nazis going to try
flooding Bohemia with ethnic Germans and forcibly
Germanizing Bohemia's ethnic Czech population, or
what?
Possibly... Germanization is more likely than colonization.

This will seriously annoy the Czechs, but there will be
little they can do, and the rest of the world will be
largely indifferent. (Who has ever spoken out for the
Sud-Tirol Germans, who are in the same fix?)

One possible change: the restoration of the original
administrative boundaries of Bohemia-Moravia, to avoid
the headaches of border revision and a non-contiguous
Sudeten territory.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
WolfBear
2018-03-12 07:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and
World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear
to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler
was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words,
Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after
decades of Nazi rule?
This assumes that the Nazi regime survives for
decades. Without Hitler, its emotional hold on the
German people is weaker; and as of 1939, Germany
was approaching grave economic difficulties.
Can't Goering try blaming the economic difficulties on Hitler, though?

Also, what should Nazi Germany do to get out of these economic difficulties other than to reduce the amount of money that it spends on armaments?

Finally, even if the Nazi regime is eventually replaced by a traditional right-wing authoritarian regime, don't you think that the idea of Germanizing Czechia would still appeal to Germany? After all, the Imperial German government unsuccessfully tried to Germanize Posen Province as well as possibly Alsace-Lorraine.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
After all, in a no-World War II TL, Bohemia is one
of the few non-German-majority territories that are
under Nazi rule. Thus, are the Nazis going to try
flooding Bohemia with ethnic Germans and forcibly
Germanizing Bohemia's ethnic Czech population, or
what?
Possibly... Germanization is more likely than colonization.
Why not both, though?
Post by Rich Rostrom
This will seriously annoy the Czechs, but there will be
little they can do, and the rest of the world will be
largely indifferent.
Completely agreed.
Post by Rich Rostrom
(Who has ever spoken out for the
Sud-Tirol Germans, who are in the same fix?)
Agreed; after all, even Hitler threw the South Tyrol Germans under the bus in our TL.

Indeed, in this TL, I could see Nazi Germany trying to resettle South Tyrol's ethnic German population in Czechia.
Post by Rich Rostrom
One possible change: the restoration of the original
administrative boundaries of Bohemia-Moravia, to avoid
the headaches of border revision and a non-contiguous
Sudeten territory.
Completely agreed. Of course, such a move would probably strengthen the desire to flood Czechia with ethnic German settlers. After all, if ethnic Germans are already 30% of Czechia's total population (due to the overwhelmingly ethnically German Sudetenland), why not try increasing the ethnic German percentage in Czechia to 50.00+%?
Post by Rich Rostrom
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
The Horny Goat
2018-03-12 20:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Finally, even if the Nazi regime is eventually replaced by a traditional right-wing authoritarian regime, don't you think that the idea of Germanizing Czechia would still appeal to Germany? After all, the Imperial German government unsuccessfully tried to Germanize Posen Province as well as possibly Alsace-Lorraine.
Even without political efforts there was plenty of ethnic mixing in
Alsace-Lorraine. My great-grandmother was an Alsatian and to her dying
day always considered herself French through and through despite being
born in 1875 (and thus legally a German national) who emigrated to the
United States around 1890 and one of the great family stories is my
grandfather recalling her tears when they got the news of Nov 11 1918
as she knew exactly what that meant for France and specifically her
beloved Alsace.

Two points:
- being born in Alsace between 1871 and 1918 she was never legally a
French citizen despite considering herself French until her American
naturalization when she married.
- her family name was Schmidtz - which as we all know is a classic
Gallic name! (About as French as MacMahon or Sarcozy I suppose)

Her situation was hardly a-typical of Alsace at that time.
Alex Milman
2018-03-13 02:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and
World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear
to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler
was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words,
Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after
decades of Nazi rule?
This assumes that the Nazi regime survives for
decades. Without Hitler, its emotional hold on the
German people is weaker; and as of 1939, Germany
was approaching grave economic difficulties.
Can't Goering try blaming the economic difficulties on Hitler, though?
Not a very good idea if the main and only legal foundation of his power is him being an official Hitler's successor.
Post by WolfBear
Also, what should Nazi Germany do to get out of these economic difficulties other than to reduce the amount of money that it spends on armaments?
The money were not spent exclusively upon the armaments. There were also big and expensive constriction projects and probably some other programs. The downside of what you proposed would be a growing unemployment with all resulting negative consequences that will endanger the "successor regime".
Post by WolfBear
Finally, even if the Nazi regime is eventually replaced by a traditional right-wing authoritarian regime,
How that regime would look like politically and economically?

The term "right-wing" had been extensively used both for the reactionary and conservative regimes and for those like Nazism and Fascism, both of which involved a strong populist component, government control of economy and other features which are not typically "conservative". To a great degree this was a byproduct of a need to distinct the "true left-wing" (er... "truly socialist") from their political opponents who automatically ended up as the "right-wing" because from the Soviet perspective (for example) they were just the lackeys of imperialism (except for a short period when they were a brotherly workers party). Of course, Hitler was openly denouncing the American and British imperialists for their hate of the state of the German workers (wouldn't this imply that he considered himself a left-winger?). :-)

So, would it be safe to assume that you are talking about something like Spain under Franco?
WolfBear
2018-03-19 00:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
Post by WolfBear
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and
World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear
to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler
was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words,
Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after
decades of Nazi rule?
This assumes that the Nazi regime survives for
decades. Without Hitler, its emotional hold on the
German people is weaker; and as of 1939, Germany
was approaching grave economic difficulties.
Can't Goering try blaming the economic difficulties on Hitler, though?
Not a very good idea if the main and only legal foundation of his power is him being an official Hitler's successor.
Goering can claim that Hitler was a great leader who simply made some mistakes, though.
Post by Alex Milman
Post by WolfBear
Also, what should Nazi Germany do to get out of these economic difficulties other than to reduce the amount of money that it spends on armaments?
The money were not spent exclusively upon the armaments. There were also big and expensive constriction projects and probably some other programs. The downside of what you proposed would be a growing unemployment with all resulting negative consequences that will endanger the "successor regime".
So, what better solution do you propose?
Post by Alex Milman
Post by WolfBear
Finally, even if the Nazi regime is eventually replaced by a traditional right-wing authoritarian regime,
How that regime would look like politically and economically?
The term "right-wing" had been extensively used both for the reactionary and conservative regimes and for those like Nazism and Fascism, both of which involved a strong populist component, government control of economy and other features which are not typically "conservative". To a great degree this was a byproduct of a need to distinct the "true left-wing" (er... "truly socialist") from their political opponents who automatically ended up as the "right-wing" because from the Soviet perspective (for example) they were just the lackeys of imperialism (except for a short period when they were a brotherly workers party). Of course, Hitler was openly denouncing the American and British imperialists for their hate of the state of the German workers (wouldn't this imply that he considered himself a left-winger?). :-)
So, would it be safe to assume that you are talking about something like Spain under Franco?
Yeah, I am thinking of a regime in Germany similar to that of Franco's regime in Spain or Salazar's regime in Portugal.

Also, as a side note, here is a good way for Germany to get more ethnic Germans to move to Bohemia in this TL--move the German capital somewhere there!
The Horny Goat
2018-03-19 14:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Post by Alex Milman
Post by WolfBear
Can't Goering try blaming the economic difficulties on Hitler, though?
Not a very good idea if the main and only legal foundation of his power is him being an official Hitler's successor.
Goering can claim that Hitler was a great leader who simply made some mistakes, though.
Given that Goering himself was in charge of the Nazi 4-year plan this
idea seems like a non-starter to me.
pyotr filipivich
2018-03-20 01:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by WolfBear
Post by Alex Milman
Post by WolfBear
Can't Goering try blaming the economic difficulties on Hitler, though?
Not a very good idea if the main and only legal foundation of his power is him being an official Hitler's successor.
Goering can claim that Hitler was a great leader who simply made some mistakes, though.
Given that Goering himself was in charge of the Nazi 4-year plan this
idea seems like a non-starter to me.
OTOH, who are you going to believe, your own faulty memory or Herr
Gobbels at the Reichsministerium der Wahrheit?
--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.
pyotr filipivich
2018-03-13 15:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and
World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear
to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler
was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words,
Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after
decades of Nazi rule?
This assumes that the Nazi regime survives for
decades. Without Hitler, its emotional hold on the
German people is weaker; and as of 1939, Germany
was approaching grave economic difficulties.
Can't Goering try blaming the economic difficulties on Hitler, though?
Not a good idea.

But there still remains the Jews and the International Bankers and
the Communists.
--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.
WolfBear
2018-03-12 07:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Also, as a side note, Czechia is going to be a case of urban Lebensraum in this TL--as opposed to the rural Lebensraum that Hitler envisioned for large parts of Eastern Europe in our TL.

Interestingly enough, an urban Lebensraum project might very well have more odds for success since Germany itself appears to have been largely urban by the late 1930s and thus urban areas in Czechia might attract more ethnic German settlers than rural areas of Eastern Europe would.
e***@gmail.com
2018-03-17 12:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
In a scenario where Hitler died in April 1939 and World War II never occurred (Goering doesn't appear to have been a messianic adventurer like Hitler was), how would Bohemia and Moravia (in other words, Czechia, but without the Sudetenland) look after decades of Nazi rule?
After all, in a no-World War II TL, Bohemia is one of the few non-German-majority territories that are under Nazi rule. Thus, are the Nazis going to try flooding Bohemia with ethnic Germans and forcibly Germanizing Bohemia's ethnic Czech population, or what?
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