WI: Mesoamerica and Andes conquered by 2 different European powers

[Rob]

As in the title, how would things be if those 2 areas were conquered by 2 different powers? Would the borders of the 2 Colonial Empires be at Panama or around it? What countries could be the participants? How would the respective colonies develop internally?

A couple ideas -

Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a surviving Burgundy gets the Andes

Or, a country other than Spain is the first to say yes to Columbus, the Caribbean and ultimately gets Mesoamerica, while Spain plays catch up hard, unable to get Mesoamerica, but able to make first claim to the Andes (and Colombia or Panama)

Any other combination you wish.

[The Horny Goat]

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:12:52 -0800 (PST), Rob

Post by Rob
As in the title, how would things be if those 2 areas were conquered by 2 different powers? Would the borders of the 2 Colonial Empires be at Panama or around it? What countries could be the participants? How would the respective colonies develop internally?
A couple ideas -
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a surviving Burgundy gets the Andes
Or, a country other than Spain is the first to say yes to Columbus, the Caribbean and ultimately gets Mesoamerica, while Spain plays catch up hard, unable to get Mesoamerica, but able to make first claim to the Andes (and Colombia or Panama)
Any other combination you wish.

That's a tough one since in the late 15th early 16th century nobody
but nobody would have considered taking on a native force far
outnumbering them the way Spaniard would. In my opinion both France
and England would have gone in with overwhelming force which would
have taken considerably longer to assemble.

Further, I don't see England (either Henry VII or early Henry VIII)
taking on large scale warfare in the New World. Sure an Italian in
English pay discovered Newfoundland but I don't see English armies of
3000+ operating in North America until OTL's Elizabethan times
particularly as for most of the 16th century England spent more time
worried about France (who had strong links to Scotland) than Spain
(who didn't - and who WOULDN'T be a threat in TTL since they wouldn't
have had large amounts of silver from Mexico)

About the only way France is a factor here is if the French land
somewhere other than the St Lawrence since it was the fur trade that
spurred early French New World efforts. The wealth of Mexico and Peru
it goes without saying were NOT based on fur!

One thing that might have greatly changed things would have been if
the French settled Florida instead of Quebec then gone on to exploit
the Mississippi basin long before OTL. THAT could have been
interesting! With a strong basis in OTL's Louisiana they certainly
could have sustained a drive into Mexico in much larger strength than
Cortez managed 1519-21.

[Alex Milman]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:12:52 -0800 (PST), Rob

Post by Rob
As in the title, how would things be if those 2 areas were conquered by 2 different powers? Would the borders of the 2 Colonial Empires be at Panama or around it? What countries could be the participants? How would the respective colonies develop internally?
A couple ideas -
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a surviving Burgundy gets the Andes
Or, a country other than Spain is the first to say yes to Columbus, the Caribbean and ultimately gets Mesoamerica, while Spain plays catch up hard, unable to get Mesoamerica, but able to make first claim to the Andes (and Colombia or Panama)
Any other combination you wish.

That's a tough one since in the late 15th early 16th century nobody
but nobody would have considered taking on a native force far
outnumbering them the way Spaniard would.

This observation is being based on what exactly?

The numeric odds were not as bad as you are trying to present them: most of Cortes' force had been Tlaskala Indians and it seems that eventually this army outnumbered the Aztecs.

OTOH, look at the Time of Troubles when the tiny Polish private armies managed to go all the way to Moscow (most of the Russian troops being armed NOT with the stone weapons).

Post by The Horny Goat
In my opinion both France
and England would have gone in with overwhelming force which would
have taken considerably longer to assemble.

You are forgetting that Balboa, Cortes and Pizarro had been running essentially the private enterprises and so would be the "alternatives"

[Pete Barrett]

Post by Rob
As in the title, how would things be if those 2 areas were conquered by
2 different powers? Would the borders of the 2 Colonial Empires be at
Panama or around it? What countries could be the participants? How would
the respective colonies develop internally?
A couple ideas -
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a
surviving Burgundy gets the Andes
Or, a country other than Spain is the first to say yes to Columbus, the
Caribbean and ultimately gets Mesoamerica, while Spain plays catch up
hard, unable to get Mesoamerica, but able to make first claim to the
Andes (and Colombia or Panama)
Any other combination you wish.

If the English had conquered the Inca empire, Atahuallpa's general
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quizquiz) would come down in history under
the name of Kiss-Kiss!

[Rob]

Post by Pete Barrett

Post by Rob
As in the title, how would things be if those 2 areas were conquered by
2 different powers? Would the borders of the 2 Colonial Empires be at
Panama or around it? What countries could be the participants? How would
the respective colonies develop internally?
A couple ideas -
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a
surviving Burgundy gets the Andes
Or, a country other than Spain is the first to say yes to Columbus, the
Caribbean and ultimately gets Mesoamerica, while Spain plays catch up
hard, unable to get Mesoamerica, but able to make first claim to the
Andes (and Colombia or Panama)
Any other combination you wish.

If the English had conquered the Inca empire, Atahuallpa's general
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quizquiz) would come down in history under
the name of Kiss-Kiss!
--
Pete BARRETT

Cute, General Kiss-Kiss-

Actually, I think it would be an interesting speculation about what the various cultures and geographic regions of the Spanish Empire would have become with conquerors and discoverers from different European languages.

How would the French, English, Portuguese, Flemish, Dutch spell and pronounce Mexico, Aztec, Maya, Cuba, Inca, Peru for instance?

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Rob
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power
like France or a surviving Burgundy gets the Andes

Geographically very improbable. The power that controls
Panama and Central America controls direct access to
western South America.

Any competing power in western South America would have
to operate via the South Atlantic, Drake Passage, and
eastern South Pacific - a very long and difficult voyage
in that era.

(It _might_ be possible to reach Peru via the River Plate.
Parana, and Bolivia. Also, the great silver mine in South
America was at Potosi in southern Bolivia. probably
accessible from the Plate.)

[Robert Woodward]

In article

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Rob
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power
like France or a surviving Burgundy gets the Andes

Geographically very improbable. The power that controls
Panama and Central America controls direct access to
western South America.
Any competing power in western South America would have
to operate via the South Atlantic, Drake Passage, and
eastern South Pacific - a very long and difficult voyage
in that era.
(It _might_ be possible to reach Peru via the River Plate.
Parana, and Bolivia. Also, the great silver mine in South
America was at Potosi in southern Bolivia. probably
accessible from the Plate.)

It does appear to be in the Rio de Plate drainage basin, even though
most of the silver was transported to the Pacific coast (not only
because it was closer, but much of it was then shipped to China).

[Pete Barrett]

Post by Rob
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a
surviving Burgundy gets the Andes

Geographically very improbable. The power that controls Panama and
Central America controls direct access to western South America.
Any competing power in western South America would have to operate via
the South Atlantic, Drake Passage, and eastern South Pacific - a very
long and difficult voyage in that era.
(It _might_ be possible to reach Peru via the River Plate.
Parana, and Bolivia. Also, the great silver mine in South America was at
Potosi in southern Bolivia. probably accessible from the Plate.)

It seems to me that it would be possible for one power to control the
Aztec-Maya area (modern Mexico and Belize), while another controls the
isthmus and points south. Of course, that does mean that one power
conquers the Aztecs (OTL, 1509, by Spain) , while another seizes Panama
(OTL, 1508, by Spain), but that doesn't seem wholly impossible.

Once having possession of Panama, that power could take Pizarro's route
down the west coast to the Inca, with much the same consequences.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Pete Barrett
It seems to me that it would be possible for one power to control the
Aztec-Maya area (modern Mexico and Belize), while another controls the
isthmus and points south. Of course, that does mean that one power
conquers the Aztecs (OTL, 1509, by Spain) , while another seizes Panama
(OTL, 1508, by Spain), but that doesn't seem wholly impossible.
Once having possession of Panama, that power could take Pizarro's route
down the west coast to the Inca, with much the same consequences.

Possible, I suppose. One power would have to take
the Greater Antilles (Cuba, Hispaniola, Puerto Rico)
and so have access to the Gulf of Mexico. The other
power would take the Lesser Antilles, or at least
the souther part of them (from Guadeloupe or Martinique
to Trinidad), and so have access to Venezuela,
Colombia, and Panama.

Here's a question. Could a rival major power, having
taken some of the Lesser Antilles, mount a successful
expedition against "New Grenada" and thence Peru and
Bolivia? This would deprive Spain of the Potosi mine,
which was the source of (it appears) over half of the
silver in the world.

This would not be easy after about 1550; the Spanish
colonial regime in South America became fairly strong,
with a large population base supporting a considerable
armed force.

But the rewards of it, especially for a power opposed
to Spain (e.g. Bourbon France) would be enormous.

[Alex Milman]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Pete Barrett
It seems to me that it would be possible for one power to control the
Aztec-Maya area (modern Mexico and Belize), while another controls the
isthmus and points south. Of course, that does mean that one power
conquers the Aztecs (OTL, 1509, by Spain) , while another seizes Panama
(OTL, 1508, by Spain), but that doesn't seem wholly impossible.
Once having possession of Panama, that power could take Pizarro's route
down the west coast to the Inca, with much the same consequences.

Possible, I suppose. One power would have to take
the Greater Antilles (Cuba, Hispaniola, Puerto Rico)
and so have access to the Gulf of Mexico. The other
power would take the Lesser Antilles, or at least
the souther part of them (from Guadeloupe or Martinique
to Trinidad), and so have access to Venezuela,
Colombia, and Panama.
Here's a question. Could a rival major power, having
taken some of the Lesser Antilles, mount a successful
expedition against "New Grenada" and thence Peru and
Bolivia? This would deprive Spain of the Potosi mine,
which was the source of (it appears) over half of the
silver in the world.
This would not be easy after about 1550; the Spanish
colonial regime in South America became fairly strong,
with a large population base supporting a considerable
armed force.
But the rewards of it, especially for a power opposed
to Spain (e.g. Bourbon France) would be enormous.

Realistically, this could happen during the reign of Louis XIV: prior to this France either had civil wars (Wars of Religion, Protestant rebellions, Fronde) or did not have a navy.

Then, of course, goes an issue of a conquering force, how big and well equipped should it be. Judging by the successful exploits of the Caribbean pirates (especially Olone and Morgan) by mid-XVII Spanish troops in the colonies were of a relatively low quality. Of course, if France manages to have either England or the Netherlands on its side, the naval part of the expedition could be simplified (or perhaps not)

[Rob]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by Pete Barrett
It seems to me that it would be possible for one power to control the
Aztec-Maya area (modern Mexico and Belize), while another controls the
isthmus and points south. Of course, that does mean that one power
conquers the Aztecs (OTL, 1509, by Spain) , while another seizes Panama
(OTL, 1508, by Spain), but that doesn't seem wholly impossible.
Once having possession of Panama, that power could take Pizarro's route
down the west coast to the Inca, with much the same consequences.

Possible, I suppose. One power would have to take
the Greater Antilles (Cuba, Hispaniola, Puerto Rico)
and so have access to the Gulf of Mexico. The other
power would take the Lesser Antilles, or at least
the souther part of them (from Guadeloupe or Martinique
to Trinidad), and so have access to Venezuela,
Colombia, and Panama.

Exactly-

The easiest PoD is if the Portuguese deliberately decide to compete for part of the Caribbean in the 1490s as soon as they hear of Columbus's return and they do not seek/accept Papal arbitration and the bull of inter caetara and Treaty of Tordesillas. By the old line of Alcacovas, Spain was arguably in violation and after Spain went from the Bahamas to Cuba and Hispaniola it was poaching south of the line that had hitherto been a Portuguese preserve.

Possibly the Portuguese intervene to ensure they at least get the Lesser Antilles and maybe Puerto Rico, and that ends up ensuring they get to the isthmus of Central America and coasts of Colombia and Venezuela first. Meanwhile, conquest of Mexico is still logical for the Spaniards based in Cuba, Hispaniola and Jamaica.

In the 1490s and maybe even into the very early 1500s, Portugal was probably the stronger naval power than Spain and was likely strong enough to be able to defend its land border at the same time in case of war.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Rob
As in the title, how would things be if those 2 areas were conquered by 2 different powers? Would the borders of the 2 Colonial Empires be at Panama or around it? What countries could be the participants? How would the respective colonies develop internally?
A couple ideas -
Spain gets Mesoamerica and a northern European power like France or a surviving Burgundy gets the Andes
Or, a country other than Spain is the first to say yes to Columbus, the Caribbean and ultimately gets Mesoamerica, while Spain plays catch up hard, unable to get Mesoamerica, but able to make first claim to the Andes (and Colombia or Panama)
Any other combination you wish.

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