WI: Minimal regional competition between the Japanese and the Chinese

[jerry kraus]

In terms of world history, how critical has the competitive dynamic between China and Japan been, over the centuries? Suppose they had just gotten along better, and rarely if ever got into major regional conflicts. How does that change history? Surely there must be some common Buddhist principals they could have applied to living better in regional harmony with each other.

[Pete Barrett]

Post by jerry kraus
In terms of world history, how critical has the competitive dynamic
between China and Japan been, over the centuries? Suppose they had
just gotten along better, and rarely if ever got into major regional
conflicts. How does that change history? Surely there must be some
common Buddhist principals they could have applied to living better in
regional harmony with each other.

Japan was under Chinese cultural influence (and much less powerful) until
the 16th century. (There was the attempted invasions by Mongol forces,
but that doesn't seem to me to be an instance of Sino-Japanese rivalry.)

Toyotomi Hideyoshi's failed invasions of Korea might have been, but after
his death, Japan was isolated until the mid 19th century. After the Meiji
restoration, Japan and China were in conflict off and on until 1945, and
you could argue that they've continued to be regional rivals ever since.

But any rivalry seems to me to be a fairly modern phenomenon, not a
centuries old one, as you suggest.

[jerry kraus]

Post by Pete Barrett

Post by jerry kraus
In terms of world history, how critical has the competitive dynamic
between China and Japan been, over the centuries? Suppose they had
just gotten along better, and rarely if ever got into major regional
conflicts. How does that change history? Surely there must be some
common Buddhist principals they could have applied to living better in
regional harmony with each other.

Japan was under Chinese cultural influence (and much less powerful) until
the 16th century. (There was the attempted invasions by Mongol forces,
but that doesn't seem to me to be an instance of Sino-Japanese rivalry.)
Toyotomi Hideyoshi's failed invasions of Korea might have been, but after
his death, Japan was isolated until the mid 19th century. After the Meiji
restoration, Japan and China were in conflict off and on until 1945, and
you could argue that they've continued to be regional rivals ever since.
But any rivalry seems to me to be a fairly modern phenomenon, not a
centuries old one, as you suggest.
--
Pete BARRETT

Actually, I tend to agree with you Pete. I'm really posting this in response to Solomon's suggestion on my "WI: No Opium" thread

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.what-if/djL_OJN6Qh4

that the reason for the fall of the Chinese Empire was NOT the Opium Wars, but, rather, the wars and conflicts with the Japanese Empire. So, would you agree with me that the Opium Wars were critical, or with Solomon that Japanese influence primarily toppled the Chinese Empire?

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 11:05:05 -0800 (PST), jerry kraus

Post by jerry kraus
Actually, I tend to agree with you Pete. I'm really posting this in response to Solomon's suggestion on my "WI: No Opium" thread
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.what-if/djL_OJN6Qh4
that the reason for the fall of the Chinese Empire was NOT the Opium Wars, but, rather, the wars and conflicts with the Japanese Empire. So, would you agree with me that the Opium Wars were critical, or with Solomon that Japanese influence primarily toppled the Chinese Empire?

The fall of the Chinese Empire started long before that. If you think
1911 was the critical year then you probably think 476 and 1453 were
the "years of history" for Rome as well.

Hint: China lost several wars with western powers long before 1911 -
one of them led directly to the formation of Hong Kong.

It would be a MAJOR POD affecting Chinese history if you discussed "WI
no Hong Kong"!

[Chrysi Cat]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 11:05:05 -0800 (PST), jerry kraus

Post by jerry kraus
Actually, I tend to agree with you Pete. I'm really posting this in response to Solomon's suggestion on my "WI: No Opium" thread
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.what-if/djL_OJN6Qh4
that the reason for the fall of the Chinese Empire was NOT the Opium Wars, but, rather, the wars and conflicts with the Japanese Empire. So, would you agree with me that the Opium Wars were critical, or with Solomon that Japanese influence primarily toppled the Chinese Empire?

The fall of the Chinese Empire started long before that. If you think
1911 was the critical year then you probably think 476 and 1453 were
the "years of history" for Rome as well.
Hint: China lost several wars with western powers long before 1911 -
one of them led directly to the formation of Hong Kong.
It would be a MAJOR POD affecting Chinese history if you discussed "WI
no Hong Kong"!

So of course he asks that and, not getting the point, asks what if
there's no island in the Pearl River Delta, not what if the UK never
gets control of said island because there was no war to force it. That
is *indeed* Our Jerry! :-P

[The Horny Goat]

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by The Horny Goat
The fall of the Chinese Empire started long before that. If you think
1911 was the critical year then you probably think 476 and 1453 were
the "years of history" for Rome as well.
Hint: China lost several wars with western powers long before 1911 -
one of them led directly to the formation of Hong Kong.
It would be a MAJOR POD affecting Chinese history if you discussed "WI
no Hong Kong"!

So of course he asks that and, not getting the point, asks what if
there's no island in the Pearl River Delta, not what if the UK never
gets control of said island because there was no war to force it. That
is *indeed* Our Jerry! :-P

I wasn't saying "WI Hong Kong Island doesn't exist" but rather "WI
Britain doesn't take Hong Kong".

Either would be a fairly major POD. Hong Kong had a population around
10-20000 in the 1840s with a similar number over the entire Kowloon
peninsula. That doesn't mean you can't get explosive population growth
- nearby Shenzhen has gone from 80k to 10+ million since 1975.

If you have a WI where Britain doesn't get Hong Kong then presumably
HK remains the collection of fishing villages it was pre-Britain.
Locally important but not significant in the grand scheme of things.

[Chrysi Cat]

On 2/25/2018 11:12 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:

<snip>

Post by The Horny Goat
I wasn't saying "WI Hong Kong Island doesn't exist" but rather "WI
Britain doesn't take Hong Kong".
Either would be a fairly major POD. Hong Kong had a population around
10-20000 in the 1840s with a similar number over the entire Kowloon
peninsula. That doesn't mean you can't get explosive population growth
- nearby Shenzhen has gone from 80k to 10+ million since 1975.
If you have a WI where Britain doesn't get Hong Kong then presumably
HK remains the collection of fishing villages it was pre-Britain.
Locally important but not significant in the grand scheme of things.

I *know* you weren't saying "WI HK Island doesn't exist".

I was pointing and laughing at Jerry, first for his insistence on
breaking out changed subjects into new threads to an extent this NG has
never seemed to follow in the time I've posted to it, or even really the
time I've lurked it. Just saying "it figures he'd be that obtuse about
the new subject!" :-P

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by jerry kraus
In terms of world history, how critical has the competitive dynamic between China and Japan been, over the centuries? Suppose they had just gotten along better, and rarely if ever got into major regional conflicts. How does that change history? Surely there must be some common Buddhist principals they could have applied to living better in regional harmony with each other.

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