Hitler killed or captured by Red Army--February 1943

probably not a show trial but they might have made a film of him
confessing, broadcasting the audio of such a confession on the radio
would have hurt german morale. of course if someone more competent took
over the war might have dragged on even longer. course some german
generals might have used the confusion to launch a coup and take the
country on to a saner course and even negotiated peace. they might have
managed to even hold onto some of eastern europe.

Peace
Zonker

http://www.2000ah.blogspot.com

a***@hotmail.com

2006-04-20 18:07:09 UTC

Post by David Tenner
"In another incident, Hitler was almost caught by a surprise Soviet attack
on the ground. In February 1943, he paid an urgent visit to the field
headquarters of Field Marshal von Manstein at Zaporozhye in the Ukraine,
where Army Group South was taking a battering. While Hitler proceeded to
a conference with von Manstein, his pilot, Baur, waited at the airfield to
the east of the city, where they soon receieved the alarming news that a
column of two dozen Soviet tanks had breached the German defenses and was
approaching at speed. As Baur noted, 'There was nothing between them and
the airfeld.' With Hitler still in conference with von Manstein, a
defense force was hastily assembled, despite lacking artillery and anti-
tank weaponry. When the column of twenty-two Soviet T-34s appeared at the
airfeild perimeter,

Are you saying that T-34's had been able to move on their own? :-)

Post by David Tenner
Baur hurried to find Hitler and request a tactical
withdrawal, but Hitler refused, replying that such measures would not be
necessary. Soon after, the Fuhrer duly returned, boarded his aircraft,
and departed. As Baur later learned, the Soviet vanguard was running low
on fuel

As it was proven in this NG, well before T-34 could run out of fuel,
its engine
would break down. :-)

Post by David Tenner
and, expecting stiff resistance at the airfield, had decided not
to press their attack. When informed of the seriousness of the situation,
Hitler would describe their escape simply as 'a bit of luck." Roger
Moorhouse, *Killing Hitler: The Plots, the Assassins, and the Dictator Who
Cheated Death* (2006), p. 175.
Most of the what-ifs in this newsgroup about Hitler being killed in World
War II (after the Elser attempt) have dealt with the resistance in the
German Army doing the job. What if instead the Soviets had succeeded in
killing him in February 1943? (Another possibility: Granted that Hitler
is determined not to be taken alive, what if he is nevertheless captured?
Do the Soviets kill him at once?

Not if he was identified.

Post by David Tenner
Bring him to Moscow?

If identified, unquestionably.

Post by David Tenner
If so, do they
stage a public trial?

If this capture happened, then WHEN it was announced US and UK would
require an
international trial.

In the space between capture and announcement Stalin could try to get
something
out of Hitler. The question is what exactly besides knowledge of the
strategic
plans. Order to the German Army to capitulate?

Post by David Tenner
That seems too risky--of course Beria could always
get innocent people to confess to conspiring to destroy the USSR and
murder huge numbers of Soviet citizens,

Actually, most of the public trials happened during Ezov's time but OK.

Post by David Tenner
but trying the man who actually
did conspire to do this risked that Hitler would turn the trial into a
denunciation of "Jewish Bolshevism"...)

I don't see considerations like this preventing the post-WWII public
trials. Whatever
he said would be used against him and as a proof of him being guilty as
Hell (which
he was).

Rich Rostrom

2006-04-20 18:40:08 UTC

David Tenner <***@ameritech.net> wrote:

<snip interesting background... I must read this book>

Post by David Tenner
Most of the what-ifs in this newsgroup about Hitler being killed in World
War II (after the Elser attempt) have dealt with the resistance in the
German Army doing the job. What if instead the Soviets had succeeded in
killing him in February 1943?

Goering succeeds as Fuehrer. The Heer prefers him to
Himmler, and Hitler's "testament" is still in force.

However the anti-Nazi faction booms. Goering would
not dare demand a personal oath of allegiance, nor
would he take the position of Army C-in-c. His greed,
vulgar display, and indolence had cost him much real
power and discredited him with insiders.

It would not be hard for the opposition to recruit
Heer leaders for a coup against Goering (oh, and
Himmler and Goebbels, too).

Not more than six months, or even less, IMO. It helps
a _lot_ that the opposition didn't kill Hitler.

Post by David Tenner
Another possibility: Granted that Hitler
is determined not to be taken alive, what
if he is nevertheless captured?

He could be stunned by an explosion.

Post by David Tenner
Do the Soviets kill him at once?

No. Stalin would definitely want him alive.

Post by David Tenner
Bring him to Moscow? If so, do they stage a public trial?

The other Allies are going to have something
to say about this. Britain, the US, Free France,
and even Poland are going to want a piece of
Hitler's ass. And I suspect that if Stalin won't
share, there will be reminders that he's the one
who allied with Hitler. Joint custody, almost
certainly, if only in name (i.e., Hitler in
a Soviet prison, with Soviet guards, but with
British/US/French etc representatives present).

He might get the Hess treatment - locked up in
solitary until the end of the war, then tried
and hanged.

j***@faf.mil.fi

2006-04-22 08:07:59 UTC

He might get the Hess treatment - locked up in solitary until the end of the war, then tried
and hanged.

Hess wasn't hanged, as I'm sure you remember.

Strangely enough, I personally find it unlikely that Stalin would
necessarily wish to impose a capital punishment on Hitler. Given
Stalin's predilections, some kind of a continued public humiliation of
the Führer would seem more appropriate.

Best guess, the post-war Soviet Victory Parade where the captured
standards of the Third Reich were thrown to the ground at Stalin's feet
at the Mausoleum is complemented in this timeline with another
Roman-style addition. In other words, the imprisoned Hitler is paraded
through Moscow as the vanquished, humiliated foe, for all the people to
see.

Afterwards, the hapless Adi gets locked up in the mental asylum of
Kalinin as the patient of the state number 50213974. He dies sometime
in the early '50s. The Russian doctors and nurses who have treated him
write memoirs of the strange relationship that they developed with the
former Führer.

... on the other hand, there's still the possibility of trial. The
factor which people on this thread have not yet noticed is that the
Soviet custody over Hitler grants the USSR pretty much the leading role
in the organization of the post-war war crimes tribunal. In other
words, the United States, the Great Britain and other Allies may
present all the demands that they want, but the fact is that Stalin
will be able to ignore them, if he so chooses. _He_ is holding the
bargaining-chip here.

In our timeline, the United States and the Western Allies were able to
construct the Nürnberg tribunal according to their ideas on the
judicial process simply because most of the leading war criminals were
already in the American custody, anyway. However, in this timeline,
_the_ leading culprit would be in the Soviet custody, so Stalin could
consequently get the kind of a trial that he had wanted all the time: a
tribunal that would be international, but still organized firmly on the
Soviet model.

Assuming that the Western Allies would protest, Stalin could always
announce that if he doesn't get his demands, the USSR will simply try
and convict Hitler independently, giving absolutely no chance for the
Western Allies to participate. Which is, incidentally, what the United
States was able to do in our timeline - i.e. threaten that if the USSR
wasn't going to comply with the American wishes, the Western Allies
would conduct separate trials for the war criminals who were in their
custody, thus cutting the USSR completely out of the process.

(As you remember, I proposed a scenario of this sort some two years
ago, although in my proposition, the point of divergence was the Soviet
capture of Bormann, Hitler, Kaltenbrunner, Frank and von Ribbentrop.)

Cheers,
Jalonen

Raymond Speer

2006-04-23 17:21:49 UTC

Merry Christmas, people of Germany. This is your Chancellor Joseph
Goebbels, in the midst of my family, wishing the best of season's
greetings for you and your family now and in the coming new year of
1945.

Herman Goering, our beloved Reichspresident and Reichsmarshal, has said
in clarity I can not match how fortunate we Germans are. We are at peace
with our cousins, the English and the Americans, and the Russians have
given up on their ambitions to pass west of the Vistula.

Our gratitude to our soldiers, panzer drivers and jet pilots has been
spoken, and our professed acknowledgement of the Divine Hand often has
been repeated. But we must not forget and must always treasure our
memory of our Fuhrer's sacrifice for us, his people.

Yes, the anniversary of that tragic day in February 1943 shall forever
be a national day of recognition for Adolf Hitler. Every German child
shall always be taught how a surprise Soviet riposte caught us unaware
and cost us the life of the greatest leader Germany shall ever have. But
giving Adolf Hitler those honors does not mean that our debt to him is
paid . . . . No, we ought to carry Hitler in our hearts and minds every
hour of every day, even Christmas.

Adolf Hitler died for us. Whether he was killed by a shell from a
Russian tank, or rather was machinegunned to death as the other
account goes, we may never know. But that is not a material point. Adolf
Hitler died so that we could live free and secure and prosperous.

* * * * * * * * * *

That same Christmas day, Winston Churchill dictated to his secretary as
he sat in his tub. She was seated in the corridor beside the bathroom
door, scribbling down Churchill's pronouncements.

"I have not heard from Anthony Eden since he turned coat and deserted to
Attlee and his appeasement Government, period. I have heard that he has
been ill since Butler defeated him in the lection for Conservative
leader, comma, but being ill is a constant condition for Master Eden
and so his present status does not provoke my sympathy, period. End
paragraph.

"Start new paragraph, please. Franklin Roosevelt and I did not adhere
to our demand of unconditional surrender -- enclose unconditional
surrender with quotation marks -- from trivial eccentricity, period. We
made that rule because the Nazis viciously spurn morality and
compromise, period. What they seize, the keep until it is wrenched by
force from their claws, period. We intended to deal with them as they
had dealt with others, period. End paragraph.

"Start new paragraph. Privately, I wish that Hitler had not been killed
in February 1943, period. As early as that following May, with Goering's
Olive Branch Speech to the Reichstag, weak nellies in the House began
wavering and wanting another Munich, period. I really doubt that defiant
proud Hitler would ever have played the peace card so well, period.

"Revise that last. Played the peace card as cravenly and as cleverly as
Goering did, period. Please add "and Goebbels" behind Goering.

"New paragraph. The German jets and their use of nerve gas at Normandy
prevented us from opening the Second Front on the continent, comma. and
spread the taint of appeasement in Parliament. In my blissful ignorence
-- change that to optimisitic trust of my colleagues, comma, --- I was
unprepared for the Attlee Eden coup d'etat only a week after our poor
boys came home. Period. And last month Roosevelt lost to Governor Dewey,
comma, an Eden backer."

* * * * * * * * * * * *

With his wife and children around him, Reichminister Albert Speer, the
third man in the Third Reich, sang Christmas songs with his wife and
children as they stood or sat around a three meter, heavily laden
Christmas tree.

Speer's prayers had been answered. In 1942, Hitler had made Speer
minister of armanents. Speer's appointment had stepped on Goering's toes
as Reich industrial commissar, and Speer had feared that he would be
sacked by the new boss after Hitler died in Russia. But Goering was
improved by elevation to the top of the slippery pole. He cut back on
pills, dumped Ribbenthrop and started peace-oriented diplomacy, and kept
Speer on. Crucially, he listened to Speer on jet airplanes and rockets,
the secret weapons that proved more valuable than gold in 1944.

The brutal and innumberable Russians were stalled on the Vistula and
Papen was even now in Moscow, seeking terms for a prolonged peace from
Stalin.

Prime Minister Attlee had a thirty seat majority following the October
1944 General Election. The Peace of Stockholm would not be violated.

Pierre Laval was firmly in charge of the French State, even if Head of
State Petain was senile.

Roosevelt was a lame duck, trashed by Dewey in the presidential election
of 1944. In his closing days in the White House, Roosevelt had issued
executive orders opening America's border's to Jews and desegrigating
the federal government, including the military. There was argument over
whether President Dewey would reverse the last-minute rules set by
Roosevelt.

Eisenhower (demoted to one star rank) was in the United States, and his
successor, Patton, was strutting around in Kent, angry that his British
hosts had stopped hostilities against the enemy. Patton had belatedly
but openly endorsed Roosevelt's re-election ("even though he is a
weak-headed Socialist") and so knew his Army days were over.

The American War against Japan continued with support from the British
in the southeast Asia sector. The combat on Leyte had never been more
vicious.

Silent Night, Holy Night
Shepards watch ----

A horrible ball of fire and pressure erupted through the floor and
cooked and ripped apart the Speers, their guests, their servants
andtheri pets The SS no longer existed, having been renamed when Himmler
passed on of a "heart attack," but a man who had been a member of that
organization saw the blast and whispered "Dortmund" into a telephone.

Twenty minutes later an aide whispered in Hermann Goering's ear that the
old coal boilers that heated Speer's mansion had unexpectedly blown up
and killed Speer. massive in his mink dressing jacket, silk shirt and
tailored informal wear, the Reichpresident told his guests that:

"I have only now received horrible news. Our dear Minister for Armanents
has passed away in a horrible accident. Reichsminister Speer was always
making inspection trips, but apparently he never went to his basement to
check his own heating system."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Alone in her little apartment, Eva Braun typed away at her manuscript,
_I Am Hitler's Widow_. If only the Fuhrer had a premonition of his death
--- Eva knew Adolf would have left her the Berghof and all of his
personal assets. She just knew that. "He loved me and I loved him," Eva
typed as the clocks chimed midnight on Christmas.

Tzintzuntzan

2006-04-27 17:29:01 UTC

Post by Rich Rostrom
<snip interesting background... I must read this book>

Goering succeeds as Fuehrer. The Heer prefers him to
Himmler, and Hitler's "testament" is still in force.

They'd have to force him in. His brain's dying from the
morphine, and he doesn't have the initiative to take
power himself. Himmler isn't going to just roll over;
the Wehrmacht has to fight him. It could go either way,
I think.

If they do install Goering, they'll find he's only good
as a figurehead -- and maybe worse, given that
he still tries to take charge. (Is Goebbels agreeable
enough to the Wehrmacht High Comnmand to
take charge?)

Rich Rostrom

2006-04-28 03:53:11 UTC

Post by Rich Rostrom
<snip interesting background... I must read this book>

Goering succeeds as Fuehrer. The Heer prefers him to
Himmler, and Hitler's "testament" is still in force.

They'd have to force him in. His brain's dying from the
morphine, and he doesn't have the initiative to take
power himself.

Goering was in a bit of a daze from all the codeine
(not morphine) he was doing, but he was very far
from being fried. His performance at the Nuremburg
Trials was fairly impressive. That was after he'd
been detoxed, but it was also after two more years
of drug-taking. So clearly his brain was not dying
in 1943.

I don't know how he was spending his days in 1943,
but I don't believe he was lying about in a drugged
stupor. He was still active in the art looting game.
for instance.

He would hear about Hitler's death or capture very
quickly, and he would assert his position at once.
The alternative would be to let Himmler or someone
else cut his throat.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
Himmler isn't going to just roll over;
the Wehrmacht has to fight him. It could go either way,
I think.

Himmler has no "legal" authority. Is he going to
order SS forces to seize Berlin? Does he have the
necessary forces in place? I doubt it.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
If they do install Goering, they'll find he's only good
as a figurehead?

All the better. Better King Log than King Stork.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
-- and maybe worse, given that he still tries to take charge.

Goering is unlikely to throw his weight around.
Which is what the Heer would prefer.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
(Is Goebbels agreeable enough to the Wehrmacht
High Comnmand to take charge?)

Almost certainly not. A weaselly club-footed cripple,
famous only for the cleverness of his lies? Well, his
propaganda. Goering at least was a soldier.

Tzintzuntzan

2006-04-28 15:07:10 UTC

Post by Rich Rostrom
<snip interesting background... I must read this book>

Goering succeeds as Fuehrer. The Heer prefers him to
Himmler, and Hitler's "testament" is still in force.

They'd have to force him in. His brain's dying from the
morphine, and he doesn't have the initiative to take
power himself.

Didn't he declare (in total seriousness) that the Luftwaffe
could save the troops at Stalingrad all by itself, and offer
to plan the relief force? I always thought that was due to
his addiction. In any case, he was already seen as an
incompetent fool by many Germans -- both ordinary
and in the Wehrmacht (due to his famous line that
"if one bomb lands on German soil my name is not
Goering -- you can call me Meir.")

Post by Rich Rostrom
I don't know how he was spending his days in 1943,
but I don't believe he was lying about in a drugged
stupor. He was still active in the art looting game.
for instance.

That's the thing -- he was spending less time in politics,
and more time cultivating his garden (or rather, cultivating
his estates, hunting, collecting loot, etc). When he was
put in charge of exploting occupied territories, he devoted
almost all his effort to stealing art instead of funding the
war effort. As for the Luftwaffe, he was letting its
administration get worse by the day.

Post by Rich Rostrom
He would hear about Hitler's death or capture very
quickly, and he would assert his position at once.
The alternative would be to let Himmler or someone
else cut his throat.

IIRC, he'd already lost several turf fights with Himmler --
largely due to being too passive about them (which was
not the way Goering had played the game in his early
years in power). When his life is at stake, it's a different
matter, but he still has little power other than Wehrmacht
backing.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
Himmler isn't going to just roll over;
the Wehrmacht has to fight him. It could go either way,
I think.

Himmler has no "legal" authority. Is he going to
order SS forces to seize Berlin? Does he have the
necessary forces in place? I doubt it.

Technically, nobody has legal authority -- while Goering
has Hitler's will to support him, that's only worth
propaganda points, not actual force.

Himmler's main plan is that most of the Wehrmacht
is far from Berlin (as are most of the SS troops) --
so he'll try to simply snatch or assassinate those
generals who are close to the center. Again, it could
work or fail.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
If they do install Goering, they'll find he's only good
as a figurehead?

All the better. Better King Log than King Stork.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
-- and maybe worse, given that he still tries to take charge.

Goering is unlikely to throw his weight around.
Which is what the Heer would prefer.

Mostly he won't -- but every now and then he'll try
to show who's boss, which will be almost as bad
as Hitler's meddling.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
(Is Goebbels agreeable enough to the Wehrmacht
High Comnmand to take charge?)

Almost certainly not. A weaselly club-footed cripple,
famous only for the cleverness of his lies? Well, his
propaganda. Goering at least was a soldier.

Yeah, I should have thought of this. So whose side does
he take in the fight for the succession?

Rich Rostrom

2006-04-28 22:46:59 UTC

Post by Rich Rostrom
Goering was in a bit of a daze from all the codeine
(not morphine) he was doing, but he was very far
from being fried. His performance at the Nuremburg
Trials was fairly impressive. That was after he'd
been detoxed, but it was also after two more years
of drug-taking. So clearly his brain was not dying
in 1943.

Didn't he declare (in total seriousness) that the Luftwaffe
could save the troops at Stalingrad all by itself, and offer
to plan the relief force? I always thought that was due to
his addiction.

No, it was a mix of incompetence, ass-covering,
and ass-kissing. OT1H, he didn't have a clear
picture of the Luftwaffe's lift capacity and the
required deliveries (incompetence). OTOH, he didn't
want to admit that the Luftwaffe couldn't do it
(ass-covering). OYAH, he always told Hitler what
Hitler wanted to hear, which in this case was that
Stalingrad could be held (ass-kissing).

Post by Tzintzuntzan
In any case, he was already seen as an
incompetent fool by many Germans...

But at least as many did not.

Post by Rich Rostrom
I don't know how he was spending his days in 1943,
but I don't believe he was lying about in a drugged
stupor. He was still active in the art looting game.
for instance.

That's the thing -- he was spending less time in politics,
and more time cultivating his garden (or rather, cultivating
his estates, hunting, collecting loot, etc).

But he was still conscious and active, not
drugged into oblivion.

Post by Rich Rostrom
He would hear about Hitler's death or capture very
quickly, and he would assert his position at once.
The alternative would be to let Himmler or someone
else cut his throat.

He still had his own private army - the Luftwaffe Field
divisions.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
Himmler isn't going to just roll over;
the Wehrmacht has to fight him. It could go either way,
I think.

Himmler has no "legal" authority. Is he going to
order SS forces to seize Berlin? Does he have the
necessary forces in place? I doubt it.

Technically, nobody has legal authority -- while Goering
has Hitler's will to support him, that's only worth
propaganda points, not actual force.

That's huge. Everyone in Germany knows about it. What
does Himmler have? Nothing. Granted, the SS will follow
Himmler and possession is nine points of the law; but
if Himmler does not act immediately and successfully,
he's blocked. IMHO.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
Himmler's main plan is that most of the Wehrmacht
is far from Berlin (as are most of the SS troops) --
so he'll try to simply snatch or assassinate those
generals who are close to the center. Again, it could
work or fail.

If Himmler starts out by arresting every Heer general
in reach, he's provoking a civil war. And not all of
those arrests would succeed. There would be a lot of
scenes where the Heer would resist.

Post by Tzintzuntzan
Mostly he won't -- but every now and then he'll try
to show who's boss, which will be almost as bad
as Hitler's meddling.

I doubt it. Hitler was very aggressive about it.
Goering was a secondary figure (and he knew it).
He was entirely Hitler's satellite, and sometimes
he vented about his weakness and servility. Moved
into Hitler's place, he would be be happy for
the boost, and would do nothing to disturb apple
carts. As you noted by 1943 he was not interested
in work or even power, only in loot and amusement.

Mike Uttley

2006-04-20 19:06:55 UTC

Depends on who succeeds him. Asssuming a military
junta rather than a Georing or a Borman.

The most obvious knockons would be
a more rational defence strategy as the Allies
closed in. No Battle of the Bulge. No infoamous
"No Retreat" orders on the Eastern Front.

They would try for a negotiated truce in vain.
Even with H gone the allies wouldn't have it.

Towards the end there would be an organized
and orchestrated strategy of helping the western allies
win even as they were fighting them in order to reduce the
amount of territory the Soviets would occupy.

In the end the more coherent defence would slow
down the allied advances but OTOH the generals would
accept unconditional surrender sooner than in ATL.

m***@willamette.edu

2006-04-21 16:49:17 UTC

I'm positive they'd take him back to Moscow. What could be really
interesting is if they try to pull a Francisco Pizarro with Hitler.

Keep in mind that in Feb of '43 the Nazis were still deep inside Soviet
teritory. I can't see the Germans agreeing to soviet occupation to get
Hitler back, but might Stalin offer to return Hitler alive in exchange
for a cease-fire that gets the Germans off all Soviet territory (at
least to the '39 borders if not the '41)? It's a long shot, but I
gotta wonder how it would play out.

--
Mike Ralls

DougL

2006-04-21 18:36:49 UTC

Post by m***@willamette.edu
I'm positive they'd take him back to Moscow. What could be really
interesting is if they try to pull a Francisco Pizarro with Hitler.
Keep in mind that in Feb of '43 the Nazis were still deep inside Soviet
teritory. I can't see the Germans agreeing to soviet occupation to get
Hitler back, but might Stalin offer to return Hitler alive in exchange
for a cease-fire that gets the Germans off all Soviet territory (at
least to the '39 borders if not the '41)? It's a long shot, but I
gotta wonder how it would play out.

I don't think they'd even try for that. Problem is IIRC they'd already
agreed to go for unconditional surrender. Unilatterally asking for
other terms with Hitler in their hands is a betrayal of the US and UK,
and at that point the Soviets need the US/UK alliance unless the peace
negotiations actually work. Which they can't guarantee by any means
Given the additional obvious mechanics problems with timing the release
and withdraw (who goes first?)) I just can't see the Germans and USSR
coming to an agreement, thus I can't see the Soviets risking the
alliance to try for a peace deal they can't get anyway.

DougL

p***@hotmail.com

2006-04-27 18:37:26 UTC