Discussion:
What are the optimal borders for Israel in 1949?
(too old to reply)
WolfBear
2018-02-17 23:27:29 UTC
Permalink
I've been curious about this--what do you think the optimal borders for Israel in 1949 are?

This question was inspired by this information in this Times of Israel article:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-trump-era-begins-what-does-israel-actually-want-in-the-west-bank/

"In December 1948, during a lull in the fighting in Israel’s War of Independence, the cabinet ministers of the newly declared Jewish state gathered in Tel Aviv to consider a final military push to expel the Egyptian army from the country’s south and Iraqi troops from the northern West Bank cities of Qalqilya and Tulkarem, both of which lie scarcely nine miles from the Mediterranean coast and form Israel’s perilously narrow coastal waistline just north of Tel Aviv.

During the cabinet meeting, interior minister Yitzhak Gruenbaum phrased a question that has plagued Israelis ever since: Is it wise to take control of territories with large Palestinian populations? Israel’s expansions up to that point in the war were into areas that were either sparsely populated to begin with, or from which Arab populations had largely fled; or into places of such desperate strategic significance, such as Lod and Ramle, that Israeli forces simply expelled some of the Arab residents.

David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli Army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973 (Photo credit: IDF/Flash90)
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973. (IDF/Flash90)
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”

The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?

In other words, the West Bank as it is defined today — a distinct territory that is neither Israel nor Jordan — was not, as is commonly believed, forged by Jordanian military success in holding the Israelis at bay in the 1948-49 war. It was created, rather, by the Israeli fear of the consequences that might flow from absorbing large numbers of Palestinians. That concern has not waned in 70 years. It is still the primary argument on both right and left against annexation of the West Bank and for the establishment of a Palestinian state."

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Basically, the information in the article above states that Israel had a golden chance of capturing the West Bank in 1949 but chose not to take it due to its large Arab population.

However, was this calculation correct? Indeed, do you think that Israel should have captured the West Bank and obtained better borders for it in the east in 1949? Basically, I am thinking of selectively annexing parts of the West Bank while either giving the rest of the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty or creating a pro-Israeli Palestinian puppet state in the rest of the West Bank.

Indeed, any thoughts on this? Also, if you think that Israel could have obtained better borders in 1949, what do you think that these better borders should have looked like?
SolomonW
2018-02-18 02:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
I've been curious about this--what do you think the optimal borders for Israel in 1949 are?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-trump-era-begins-what-does-israel-actually-want-in-the-west-bank/
"In December 1948, during a lull in the fighting in Israel’s War of Independence, the cabinet ministers of the newly declared Jewish state gathered in Tel Aviv to consider a final military push to expel the Egyptian army from the country’s south and Iraqi troops from the northern West Bank cities of Qalqilya and Tulkarem, both of which lie scarcely nine miles from the Mediterranean coast and form Israel’s perilously narrow coastal waistline just north of Tel Aviv.
During the cabinet meeting, interior minister Yitzhak Gruenbaum phrased a question that has plagued Israelis ever since: Is it wise to take control of territories with large Palestinian populations? Israel’s expansions up to that point in the war were into areas that were either sparsely populated to begin with, or from which Arab populations had largely fled; or into places of such desperate strategic significance, such as Lod and Ramle, that Israeli forces simply expelled some of the Arab residents.
A push to expel the Egyptian army from the country’s south which as long as
it avoids Gaza which Israel did, has little Arab population.
Post by WolfBear
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli Army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973 (Photo credit: IDF/Flash90)
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973. (IDF/Flash90)
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”
The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?
In other words, the West Bank as it is defined today — a distinct territory that is neither Israel nor Jordan — was not, as is commonly believed, forged by Jordanian military success in holding the Israelis at bay in the 1948-49 war. It was created, rather, by the Israeli fear of the consequences that might flow from absorbing large numbers of Palestinians. That concern has not waned in 70 years. It is still the primary argument on both right and left against annexation of the West Bank and for the establishment of a Palestinian state."
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Basically, the information in the article above states that Israel had a golden chance of capturing the West Bank in 1949 but chose not to take it due to its large Arab population.
However, was this calculation correct? Indeed, do you think that Israel should have captured the West Bank and obtained better borders for it in the east in 1949? Basically, I am thinking of selectively annexing parts of the West Bank while either giving the rest of the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty or creating a pro-Israeli Palestinian puppet state in the rest of the West Bank.
I am not sure about the meeting details quoted here, but it is certainly
true by the end of this war Israel could have seized much more land then it
did including much of the Sinai and East Jerusalem too.
Post by WolfBear
Indeed, any thoughts on this? Also, if you think that Israel could have obtained better borders in 1949, what do you think that these better borders should have looked like?
The Golan if you are looking at it from a security view.
Rob
2018-02-18 04:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”
The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?
Why would the Israelis have assumed large Arab populations would remain and not flee if conquered?

I would need to study the sourcing of this account to believe it. I wonder if this is attested to by unaltered records or recollections written down *before* 1967. If not, I have a high suspicion this recollection of events involves projection backward of concerns that only became more pronounced after it turned out that the great majority of Palestinians did not flee in the 1967 war.
WolfBear
2018-02-18 05:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by WolfBear
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”
The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?
Why would the Israelis have assumed large Arab populations would remain and not flee if conquered?
Well, large numbers of Arabs did not flee after the Galiliee and Wadi Ara area were captured.
Post by Rob
I would need to study the sourcing of this account to believe it. I wonder if this is attested to by unaltered records or recollections written down *before* 1967. If not, I have a high suspicion this recollection of events involves projection backward of concerns that only became more pronounced after it turned out that the great majority of Palestinians did not flee in the 1967 war.
Yes, this is certainly possible.
WolfBear
2018-02-18 05:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Post by Rob
Post by WolfBear
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”
The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?
Why would the Israelis have assumed large Arab populations would remain and not flee if conquered?
Well, large numbers of Arabs did not flee after the Galiliee and Wadi Ara area were captured.
Post by Rob
I would need to study the sourcing of this account to believe it. I wonder if this is attested to by unaltered records or recollections written down *before* 1967. If not, I have a high suspicion this recollection of events involves projection backward of concerns that only became more pronounced after it turned out that the great majority of Palestinians did not flee in the 1967 war.
Yes, this is certainly possible.
*Galilee (typo)
s***@yahoo.com
2018-02-18 20:24:17 UTC
Permalink
I am reminded of the Mad Magazine article, presumably in 1967, showing the proposed "erzatz israel" extending deep into europe and africa.
Rob
2018-02-21 01:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
I've been curious about this--what do you think the optimal borders for Israel in 1949 are?
Well first question is how do we define "optimal"?

Does it mean "maximum"? or largest?

Or could it mean, "least likely to lead to further wars"?
WolfBear
2018-02-21 02:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by WolfBear
I've been curious about this--what do you think the optimal borders for Israel in 1949 are?
Well first question is how do we define "optimal"?
Does it mean "maximum"? or largest?
Or could it mean, "least likely to lead to further wars"?
I mean the borders which would serve Israel best of all.

Note: Borders which will cause further wars will not necessarily weaken Israel if it will win these wars and be able to make peace at some future point in time.
Rob
2018-02-24 17:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
I've been curious about this--what do you think the optimal borders for Israel in 1949 are?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-trump-era-begins-what-does-israel-actually-want-in-the-west-bank/
"In December 1948, during a lull in the fighting in Israel’s War of Independence, the cabinet ministers of the newly declared Jewish state gathered in Tel Aviv to consider a final military push to expel the Egyptian army from the country’s south and Iraqi troops from the northern West Bank cities of Qalqilya and Tulkarem, both of which lie scarcely nine miles from the Mediterranean coast and form Israel’s perilously narrow coastal waistline just north of Tel Aviv.
During the cabinet meeting, interior minister Yitzhak Gruenbaum phrased a question that has plagued Israelis ever since: Is it wise to take control of territories with large Palestinian populations? Israel’s expansions up to that point in the war were into areas that were either sparsely populated to begin with, or from which Arab populations had largely fled; or into places of such desperate strategic significance, such as Lod and Ramle, that Israeli forces simply expelled some of the Arab residents.
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli Army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973 (Photo credit: IDF/Flash90)
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973. (IDF/Flash90)
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”
The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?
In other words, the West Bank as it is defined today — a distinct territory that is neither Israel nor Jordan — was not, as is commonly believed, forged by Jordanian military success in holding the Israelis at bay in the 1948-49 war. It was created, rather, by the Israeli fear of the consequences that might flow from absorbing large numbers of Palestinians. That concern has not waned in 70 years. It is still the primary argument on both right and left against annexation of the West Bank and for the establishment of a Palestinian state."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically, the information in the article above states that Israel had a golden chance of capturing the West Bank in 1949 but chose not to take it due to its large Arab population.
However, was this calculation correct? Indeed, do you think that Israel should have captured the West Bank and obtained better borders for it in the east in 1949? Basically, I am thinking of selectively annexing parts of the West Bank while either giving the rest of the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty or creating a pro-Israeli Palestinian puppet state in the rest of the West Bank.
Indeed, any thoughts on this? Also, if you think that Israel could have obtained better borders in 1949, what do you think that these better borders should have looked like?
Here are my thoughts on Israel's optimal borders. My definition of optimal is borders that are most likely to avoid additional wars, and allow Israel to develop more culturally and economically with broader international ties.

So, working backward from OTL's wars of '56, '67 and '73, here is how we could change the border situation to lessen the immediate territorial issues that led to escalation:

1) On the Egyptian front, have the the Israelis win Gaza from Egypt by 1949, but lose the Red Sea port of Eilat to the Jordanians.

I think that of the Palestinian population of Gaza, 1/3 to 1/2 would remain in place. This does increase the Arab proportion of the population, but does not threaten the Jewish majority, especially as the waves of immigration from the early 1950s play out. The remainder of the Palestinians probably flee across the border to the towns of the Sinai and others move to the Eilat-Aqaba complex in southern Jordan.

The Egyptian-administered Gaza Strip was the focus and recruiting ground of the Fedayeen guerrilla movement Nasser supported in the middle 1950s.

Here, Nasser does not have so much of a concentrated Palestinian population whose frustrations he needs to direct outward. So, a lesser Fedayeen movement is likely, and reduces that source of escalation.

But even more important is Israel's lack of a Red Sea Coast and Red Sea port.

The blockage of the Straits of Tiran was Israel's stated casus belli in both the 1956 and 1967wars.
But in the ATL, the Israeli's never have a history of using the Red Sea, and rely entirely on Mediterranean ports. Despite some description of the straits of Tiran and Red Sea access as a "lifeline" I am skeptical because may countries nearby have survived just fine with only Mediterranean access. International shipping is pretty flexible.

2) On the Syrian frontier, Israel occupies up to the absolute limit of the Palestinian mandate's border with the Syrian mandate, which I think has Israel encircle the sea of Galilee. In OTL, the Syrians held a strip of land along the sea of Galilee that was demilitarized. Israel linked its withdrawal from Lebanon in 1949 with the expectation it would have rights to that strip of territory on the Syrian border even if it were demilitarized. The Syrians recognized no such quid pro quo.

The DMZ with Syria was important to the Syrian-Israeli escalation of 1967. The Israelis, while not moving troops into the disputed DMZ, moved farmers and tractors. The Syrians, to avoid it becoming de facto Israel, bombarded the Israelis with artillery, and thus a cycle of escalations in artillery fire and air battles began, that made Egypt and the USSR fear an all-out Israeli attack on Syria.

When people say the Syrians were constantly using the Golan Heights to bombard Israel prior to the 6 Day War, what they are referring to is Syrian bombarded of the small, disputed DMZ, *not* bombardment of all of northern Israel that was physically within range.

Eventually, during the Six Day War, but only after the Israelis had attacked the Egyptians, and possibly the Syrian air force, did the Syrians start bombarding all Israeli territory within range of their guns on the Golan.

So, complex as it is, a "cleaner" armistice border with Syria from 1949 removes a big issue the Syrians and Israelis were escalating about.

The Jordanian border can be left alone, and leaving the West Bank in Jordan's hands helps safeguard Israel's Jewish majority after 1949. It avoids a West Bank occupation problem and the Muslim rallying point of the Israelis exerting secular authority over the Dome of the Rock/Al-Aqsa mosque.

However, for good measure, to reduce the temptation for Israeli aggression, to reduce displacement of the the Jewish population of East Jerusalem, and for Israeli spiritual satisfaction it would have been better for the Israelis had they relieved the siege of the Jewish Quarter of East Jerusalem, and controlled the base of the Wailing Wall and its entire front surface.

So those are my proposed changes.

They will not make for a happy, shiny Middle East, but stand a decent chance of averting additional full-scale wars and additional refugee movements. I would imagine the Arab-Israeli conflict could go on as a "frozen conflict" not too costly in terms of blood spilled on a monthly/yearly basis, like Cyprus has been since its 1974 partition. Palestinians will still have a revanchist claim, but there will be less border fighting over it, and the Arab governments will not have certain levers they used historically that inflamed Israel.
t***@gmail.com
2018-03-17 13:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
I've been curious about this--what do you think the optimal borders for Israel in 1949 are?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-trump-era-begins-what-does-israel-actually-want-in-the-west-bank/
"In December 1948, during a lull in the fighting in Israel’s War of Independence, the cabinet ministers of the newly declared Jewish state gathered in Tel Aviv to consider a final military push to expel the Egyptian army from the country’s south and Iraqi troops from the northern West Bank cities of Qalqilya and Tulkarem, both of which lie scarcely nine miles from the Mediterranean coast and form Israel’s perilously narrow coastal waistline just north of Tel Aviv.
During the cabinet meeting, interior minister Yitzhak Gruenbaum phrased a question that has plagued Israelis ever since: Is it wise to take control of territories with large Palestinian populations? Israel’s expansions up to that point in the war were into areas that were either sparsely populated to begin with, or from which Arab populations had largely fled; or into places of such desperate strategic significance, such as Lod and Ramle, that Israeli forces simply expelled some of the Arab residents.
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli Army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973 (Photo credit: IDF/Flash90)
David Ben Gurion (left) and then-major general Ariel Sharon during a bus ride along the Israeli army positions on the Egyptian border in 1973. (IDF/Flash90)
The historian Benny Morris described Gruenbaum’s concern as stemming from the understanding that Israel “could not hold territory packed with Arabs.”
The question returned even more forcefully a few months later, when Yigal Allon, the most successful field commander of the nascent IDF, urged prime minister David Ben-Gurion to order the conquest of the West Bank, an operation he thought could be concluded in a matter of days. This was particularly true after a February ceasefire with Egypt freed up a great deal of Israel’s over 100,000 troops to contend with a Jordanian fighting force in the West Bank of perhaps 12,000. Again Israel’s leaders demurred, and for the same reason: Could a Jewish nation state afford to extend its sovereignty over large non-Jewish populations?
In other words, the West Bank as it is defined today — a distinct territory that is neither Israel nor Jordan — was not, as is commonly believed, forged by Jordanian military success in holding the Israelis at bay in the 1948-49 war. It was created, rather, by the Israeli fear of the consequences that might flow from absorbing large numbers of Palestinians. That concern has not waned in 70 years. It is still the primary argument on both right and left against annexation of the West Bank and for the establishment of a Palestinian state."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically, the information in the article above states that Israel had a golden chance of capturing the West Bank in 1949 but chose not to take it due to its large Arab population.
However, was this calculation correct? Indeed, do you think that Israel should have captured the West Bank and obtained better borders for it in the east in 1949? Basically, I am thinking of selectively annexing parts of the West Bank while either giving the rest of the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty or creating a pro-Israeli Palestinian puppet state in the rest of the West Bank.
Indeed, any thoughts on this? Also, if you think that Israel could have obtained better borders in 1949, what do you think that these better borders should have looked like?
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