Discussion:
Abraham Lincoln lives
(too old to reply)
WolfBear
2017-12-30 23:07:22 UTC
Permalink
What if Abraham Lincoln had survived the assassination attempt on him? How would the rest of his Presidency have looked like?

For instance, are we still going to see the 14th and 15th Amendments in this TL?

Also, I have heard a theory that Lincoln might have had cancer when he got assassinated:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/did-lincoln-have-cancer-180940826/

Do you think that there is any truth to this theory? Also, if Lincoln dies naturally from cancer, is Andrew Johnson likely to get along better with Congressional Republicans in comparison to our TL?

Any thoughts on all of this?
Insane Ranter
2018-01-02 18:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
What if Abraham Lincoln had survived the assassination attempt on him? How would the rest of his Presidency have looked like?
For instance, are we still going to see the 14th and 15th Amendments in this TL?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/did-lincoln-have-cancer-180940826/
Do you think that there is any truth to this theory? Also, if Lincoln dies naturally from cancer, is Andrew Johnson likely to get along better with Congressional Republicans in comparison to our TL?
Any thoughts on all of this?
Johnson depends on when Lincoln dies and Johnson takes over. If it is still when Congress is out of session then Johnson does what he did and no change.

Lincoln would have butted heads with Congress if he tried to push his plan though which was "easy" on the South....
Rich Rostrom
2018-01-03 06:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
What if Abraham Lincoln had survived the
assassination attempt on him? How would the rest of
his Presidency have looked like?
Lincoln wanted an "easy peace". He wanted ex-Confederates
to return quietly to private lives, and hinted that he
would prefer it if Davis and other CSA leaders escaped
the country.

He also wanted to see white and black Southerners work
out their new relationship peacefully and with minimal
outside intervention.

But he _was_ committed to fundamental change, and at the
time of his death was moving toward true civil equality
for blacks. Not completely, not right away, but he wanted
at least a start in that direction, including suffrage
for at least some blacks.

He would not have accepted, as Johnson did, the "Conservative
Reconstruction of 1865-1866, in which ex-Confederates took
control of state governments and enacted "Black Codes" that
practically reinstated slavery.

Also - big difference - Johnson was a partisan Democrat, who
welcomed those governments because they were exclusively
Democrat. Lincoln was a partisan Republican, who would have
sought to establish the Republican Party in the South, by
patronage appointments and other techniques.

Lincoln was a former Whig, and there were lots of
former Whigs in the South who shared Lincoln's views
on such traditional Whig issues as the tariff,
"internal improvements", and a national bank (was that
still a viable idea by the 1860s?). With the slavery
issue dead and buried, many would be open to becoming
Republicans, if recruited.

Lincoln would begin recruiting them immediately, and
with considerable expertise. Johnson of course did not,
and Grant was no political operator. Besides which, by
the time Grant took office, the lines had already formed,
with essentially all politically active whites drawn into
the white supremacist Democrat organizations.
Post by WolfBear
For instance, are we still going to see the 14th and
15th Amendments in this TL?
Good question. It depends on how violent and how successful
white Southern resistance is. OTL, it was so strong that
the two amendments seemed to be necessary to overcome it.

But Lincoln, ISTM, would undermine that resistance and also
defuse it. The amendments, by immediately enfranchising all
black men, threatened social revolution in large areas of
the South, where blacks were the majority. Blacks would
control local governments in many areas, including law
enforcement. Black men with the legal authority to lay hands
on white men???? Unthinkable! Intolerable!! And so the Klan
and other violent "Redeemers".

Lincoln would not go there. He would demand changes white
Southerners would be reluctant to grant, but not anything
that would scare them into violent resistance. This could
obviate the need for anything like the OTL amendments.

The question is whether the moderate changes imposed by
Lincoln would persist, and eventually lead to full civil
equality, or would remain insignificant and be rolled back.

OTL, the Republican Party in the South became quite as
racist as the Democrats after 1900, and the end of
black voting. In several states, the Republicans were
divided between "Black-and-Tan" and "Lily White"
factions; after 1900, the latter were all that
remained. In 1900-1930, Republican Presidents pandered
to the Lily Whites in return for Southern Republican
support at national conventions. (The Southern
delegations were small, reflecting the small
Republican vote in those states, but in aggregate were
a substantial voting bloc.)

ITTL, the Republicans in the South would be stronger from
the start, but also much more tied to pre-War ideas about
white supremacy. So they would be likely to become "Lily
Whites".
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
WolfBear
2018-01-04 04:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
What if Abraham Lincoln had survived the
assassination attempt on him? How would the rest of
his Presidency have looked like?
Lincoln wanted an "easy peace". He wanted ex-Confederates
to return quietly to private lives, and hinted that he
would prefer it if Davis and other CSA leaders escaped
the country.
He also wanted to see white and black Southerners work
out their new relationship peacefully and with minimal
outside intervention.
But he _was_ committed to fundamental change, and at the
time of his death was moving toward true civil equality
for blacks. Not completely, not right away, but he wanted
at least a start in that direction, including suffrage
for at least some blacks.
He would not have accepted, as Johnson did, the "Conservative
Reconstruction of 1865-1866, in which ex-Confederates took
control of state governments and enacted "Black Codes" that
practically reinstated slavery.
Also - big difference - Johnson was a partisan Democrat, who
welcomed those governments because they were exclusively
Democrat. Lincoln was a partisan Republican, who would have
sought to establish the Republican Party in the South, by
patronage appointments and other techniques.
Lincoln was a former Whig, and there were lots of
former Whigs in the South who shared Lincoln's views
on such traditional Whig issues as the tariff,
"internal improvements", and a national bank (was that
still a viable idea by the 1860s?). With the slavery
issue dead and buried, many would be open to becoming
Republicans, if recruited.
Lincoln would begin recruiting them immediately, and
with considerable expertise. Johnson of course did not,
and Grant was no political operator. Besides which, by
the time Grant took office, the lines had already formed,
with essentially all politically active whites drawn into
the white supremacist Democrat organizations.
Post by WolfBear
For instance, are we still going to see the 14th and
15th Amendments in this TL?
Good question. It depends on how violent and how successful
white Southern resistance is. OTL, it was so strong that
the two amendments seemed to be necessary to overcome it.
But Lincoln, ISTM, would undermine that resistance and also
defuse it. The amendments, by immediately enfranchising all
black men, threatened social revolution in large areas of
the South, where blacks were the majority. Blacks would
control local governments in many areas, including law
enforcement. Black men with the legal authority to lay hands
on white men???? Unthinkable! Intolerable!! And so the Klan
and other violent "Redeemers".
Lincoln would not go there. He would demand changes white
Southerners would be reluctant to grant, but not anything
that would scare them into violent resistance. This could
obviate the need for anything like the OTL amendments.
The question is whether the moderate changes imposed by
Lincoln would persist, and eventually lead to full civil
equality, or would remain insignificant and be rolled back.
OTL, the Republican Party in the South became quite as
racist as the Democrats after 1900, and the end of
black voting. In several states, the Republicans were
divided between "Black-and-Tan" and "Lily White"
factions; after 1900, the latter were all that
remained. In 1900-1930, Republican Presidents pandered
to the Lily Whites in return for Southern Republican
support at national conventions. (The Southern
delegations were small, reflecting the small
Republican vote in those states, but in aggregate were
a substantial voting bloc.)
ITTL, the Republicans in the South would be stronger from
the start, but also much more tied to pre-War ideas about
white supremacy. So they would be likely to become "Lily
Whites".
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Very interesting!

Indeed, it looks like we might see a stronger Republican Party in the Southern U.S.--even after the end of Reconstruction--in this TL. Frankly, I wonder if we could even see a mini-Marshall Plan for the Southern U.S. in this TL. I mean, I doubt it, but the Whigs were more receptive to internal improvements than the Democrats and--as you said--Lincoln would have probably began aggressively recruiting former Whigs. Also, pushing through a program of industrialization and economic improvement for the Southern U.S. could result in many poor Southern Whites flocking to the Republican Party and thus ensuring that the planter class in the Southern U.S. does not rise back to the top of the political echelon.

Also, as a side note, without the 14th and 15th Amendments, are we going to see the end of segregation and anti-miscegenation laws achieved through action of the state level rather than through the courts? After all, without these two amendments, what would the basis be for judicial invalidation of these things?
Rich Rostrom
2018-01-06 13:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Also, pushing through a program of industrialization
and economic improvement for the Southern U.S. could
result in many poor Southern Whites flocking to the
Republican Party and thus ensuring that the planter
class in the Southern U.S. does not rise back to the
top of the political echelon.
However, it should be noted that the Whig Party in
the South (as in the North) drew a lot of its support
from the wealthier classes, including many planters.
A Whig-style economic development program would
appeal to the mercantile interests and the holders of
capital (such as planters).

Poor whites tended to be Democrats. Andrew Johnson
was one such. Though by the time he became successful
in politics he was no longer poor, he remained loyal
to his roots. When then-Sen. Jefferson Davis made a
patronizing remark about working-class men in a
Senate debate, Johnson rose up angrily, denouncing a
"bastard, swaggering, scrub aristocracy." It was the
Jacksonian heritage, I think.
Post by WolfBear
Also, as a side note, without the 14th and 15th
Amendments, are we going to see the end of
segregation and anti-miscegenation laws achieved
through action of the state level rather than
through the courts? After all, without these two
amendments, what would the basis be for judicial
invalidation of these things?
The 15th Amendment only references voting, so it was
irrelevant. The 14th Amendment is what was applied.
One might see a similar amendment, to establish civil
equality in trials, suits, and contracts, but phrased
differently to have explicit limits on its effects.

As it is, the very broad and indefinite language of
the 14th Amendment has become the basis for a huge
amount of judicial activism, not limited to race. Just
about every area of American law has been affected.

An alt-14th Amendment might avoid this. As to
segregation and miscegenation laws: _if_ Lincoln's
immediate "moderate Reconstruction" led to further
civil progress for blacks... These practices would
become increasingly irrelevant. They would persist
in the South, but as social habits, rather than as
bastions of power. Separate "white" and "black"
accommodations would exist, but would be much more
"equal" than OTL. Thus there would be less incentive
to challenge them. In the modernizing 20th-century
South, they would often be abolished as new facilities
were built, especially in "fringe" areas such as Texas
and Florida.

One should note that many blacks took pride in "their"
institutions, whose histories were wiped away by
integration.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
WolfBear
2018-03-03 03:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
Also, pushing through a program of industrialization
and economic improvement for the Southern U.S. could
result in many poor Southern Whites flocking to the
Republican Party and thus ensuring that the planter
class in the Southern U.S. does not rise back to the
top of the political echelon.
However, it should be noted that the Whig Party in
the South (as in the North) drew a lot of its support
from the wealthier classes, including many planters.
A Whig-style economic development program would
appeal to the mercantile interests and the holders of
capital (such as planters).
OK; understood.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Poor whites tended to be Democrats. Andrew Johnson
was one such. Though by the time he became successful
in politics he was no longer poor, he remained loyal
to his roots. When then-Sen. Jefferson Davis made a
patronizing remark about working-class men in a
Senate debate, Johnson rose up angrily, denouncing a
"bastard, swaggering, scrub aristocracy." It was the
Jacksonian heritage, I think.
OK; understood.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by WolfBear
Also, as a side note, without the 14th and 15th
Amendments, are we going to see the end of
segregation and anti-miscegenation laws achieved
through action of the state level rather than
through the courts? After all, without these two
amendments, what would the basis be for judicial
invalidation of these things?
The 15th Amendment only references voting, so it was
irrelevant.
Not quite. After all, if one is a living constitutionalist, one can theoretically read an Amendment beyond its text. Thus, one can theoretically read the 15th Amendment as representing a broader picture of racial equality.
Post by Rich Rostrom
The 14th Amendment is what was applied.
One might see a similar amendment, to establish civil
equality in trials, suits, and contracts, but phrased
differently to have explicit limits on its effects.
Why would the 14th Amendment be written more narrowly in this TL, though?

Also, one can theoretically read a rule which establishes civil equality in contracts as outlawing anti-miscegenation laws. After all, marriage *can* be viewed as a contract.
Post by Rich Rostrom
As it is, the very broad and indefinite language of
the 14th Amendment has become the basis for a huge
amount of judicial activism, not limited to race. Just
about every area of American law has been affected.
Yes, this is absolutely correct. Indeed, Raoul Berger wrote a 1977 book about this called Government by Judiciary.
Post by Rich Rostrom
An alt-14th Amendment might avoid this. As to
segregation and miscegenation laws: _if_ Lincoln's
immediate "moderate Reconstruction" led to further
civil progress for blacks... These practices would
become increasingly irrelevant. They would persist
in the South, but as social habits, rather than as
bastions of power.
It is certainly possible that there would have been more progress in improving African-Americans' conditions in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in this TL. That said, though, interracial marriage might still be viewed as a way of advancing one's status even further; after all, Whites had a lot of time to create wealth while Blacks were only recently emancipated. Thus, anti-miscegenation laws might still generate a lot of resentment--especially for African-Americans and Whites who are in love.
Post by Rich Rostrom
Separate "white" and "black"
accommodations would exist, but would be much more
"equal" than OTL. Thus there would be less incentive
to challenge them. In the modernizing 20th-century
South, they would often be abolished as new facilities
were built, especially in "fringe" areas such as Texas
and Florida.
Some Whites and Blacks might still feel excluded even if the facilities for the races are equal, though. For instance, what if a Black person prefers to intermingle with Whites or a White person prefers to intermingle with Blacks?
Post by Rich Rostrom
One should note that many blacks took pride in "their"
institutions, whose histories were wiped away by
integration.
It's certainly possible. That said, though, do you have a source for this?
Post by Rich Rostrom
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Rich Rostrom
2018-03-03 20:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
Post by Rich Rostrom
One should note that many blacks took pride in "their"
institutions, whose histories were wiped away by
integration.
It's certainly possible. That said, though, do you
have a source for this?
No cite; but I recall reading that when segregated
schools were abolished in the South, it was always
the "colored" schools which were eliminated, including
name, athletic history, etc.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
m***@gmail.com
2018-03-17 12:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfBear
What if Abraham Lincoln had survived the assassination attempt on him? How would the rest of his Presidency have looked like?
For instance, are we still going to see the 14th and 15th Amendments in this TL?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/did-lincoln-have-cancer-180940826/
Do you think that there is any truth to this theory? Also, if Lincoln dies naturally from cancer, is Andrew Johnson likely to get along better with Congressional Republicans in comparison to our TL?
Any thoughts on all of this?
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