Discussion:
WIF Russian-Japanese War is a draw
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Alex Milman
2018-03-28 15:09:12 UTC
Permalink
What if war of 1904 - 05 ended with a stalemate?

Russia is reasonably victorious on the land and Japan on the sea.

Russian chances of a naval victory exist mostly in the modern Russian alt-history books (a very popular subject):

1st, it would require a long-term fundamental change in naval construction: in OTL Russian navy was heavily relying upon the French designs (not very good ones, to put it mildly).

2nd, there would be a need to move most of the Baltic fleet to the Pacific BEFORE the war.

3rd, AFAIK, the port facilities on the Far East were not adequate for serving the needs of a major war.

4th, naval base in Port Arthur (separated from Russia proper) added vulnerability.

Then come reasonably minor things like faulty construction of the armor-piercing shells, big openings in the desk-houses (hopefully, I'm using the right term :-)), a lot of exposed wood, etc.


OTOH, victory on land was quite realistic with the reasonably small changes:

1. Getting rid of the "shrapnel obsession" in a favor of the explosive shells.

2. Usage of the trenches (WWI style) as a main style of the field fortifications instead of sticking to the obsolete field forts and lunets which were leaving personnel unprotected from enemy's barrage.

3. Incorporate fortified (earth and wood) placements for the machine guns into the field fortifications, preferably with the embrasures on the sides (like the Finns had in Mannerheim Line) to make their detection more difficult.

4. Get rid of the obsolete "smoothbore artillery" ideology advocated by some old generals which required placing exposed artillery as close to the front line as possible and place the guns well behind the front line in the covered positions.

5. Take care of having more troops on the Far East by 1904 and to place in the region adequate supplies of ammunition.

6. Try to attract the local Chinese and use them for collecting intelligence: Russians were not too good but the Japanese were worse. Also, conduct a thorough mapping of the Russian Manchuria. Judging by the contemporary memoirs, Russian military intelligence in that war was absolutely inadequate and the same goes for the knowledge of the local geography.

7. This, of course, could be a serious problem but find the better generals for the top positions (both Kuropatkin and Linevich were inadequate for the role of c-in-c).

So, on the land Russian troops are managing to push Japanese back. No need in the spectacular Cannae-like action favored by the modern Russian alt-writes, just steady moving forward with an ultimate goal to prevent blockade of Port Arthur (and not being beaten in a process). At some point front stabilizes and there are no major actions: aggressive moves proved to be too costly for both sides.

On the sea, Port Arthur squadron behaves approximately along the OTL lines:

Few sorties with no serious results, perhaps a little bit more stress on mining. Basically, the Pacific squadron is bottled in Port Arthur.

No suicidal mission of the Baltic fleet (and no resulting major embarrassment). Japanese are more or less controlling the seas.

The only possible change is Russians using available resources to arm the high-speed steamships and use them the same way as the German raiders in WWI: Japan heavily depended upon the imports and any serious disruption could (optimistically) cause big problems.

With a stalemate achieved by the early 1905 both sides are ready to negotiate (directly or with the US as a mediator, does not matter). Let's say the peace leaves things more or less in pre-war situation with few minor adjustments here and there for the face saving on both sides.

What are conditions and what are the short- and long-term consequences?

In Russia a shorter and reasonably victorious war:

(a) Would probably prevent the mass unrest in 1905 thus making Constitution of 1905 less likely (but not impossible)

(b) Would strengthen the regime making "face-saving" actions of 1914 at least somewhat less likely.

In Japan the militaristic faction ends up being less powerful (and less self-assured). Long term consequences?



What else?
SolomonW
2018-03-30 01:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
What if war of 1904 - 05 ended with a stalemate?
Russia is reasonably victorious on the land and Japan on the sea.
1st, it would require a long-term fundamental change in naval construction: in OTL Russian navy was heavily relying upon the French designs (not very good ones, to put it mildly).
2nd, there would be a need to move most of the Baltic fleet to the Pacific BEFORE the war.
3rd, AFAIK, the port facilities on the Far East were not adequate for serving the needs of a major war.
4th, naval base in Port Arthur (separated from Russia proper) added vulnerability.
Then come reasonably minor things like faulty construction of the armor-piercing shells, big openings in the desk-houses (hopefully, I'm using the right term :-)), a lot of exposed wood, etc.
1. Getting rid of the "shrapnel obsession" in a favor of the explosive shells.
2. Usage of the trenches (WWI style) as a main style of the field fortifications instead of sticking to the obsolete field forts and lunets which were leaving personnel unprotected from enemy's barrage.
3. Incorporate fortified (earth and wood) placements for the machine guns into the field fortifications, preferably with the embrasures on the sides (like the Finns had in Mannerheim Line) to make their detection more difficult.
4. Get rid of the obsolete "smoothbore artillery" ideology advocated by some old generals which required placing exposed artillery as close to the front line as possible and place the guns well behind the front line in the covered positions.
5. Take care of having more troops on the Far East by 1904 and to place in the region adequate supplies of ammunition.
6. Try to attract the local Chinese and use them for collecting intelligence: Russians were not too good but the Japanese were worse. Also, conduct a thorough mapping of the Russian Manchuria. Judging by the contemporary memoirs, Russian military intelligence in that war was absolutely inadequate and the same goes for the knowledge of the local geography.
7. This, of course, could be a serious problem but find the better generals for the top positions (both Kuropatkin and Linevich were inadequate for the role of c-in-c).
8. Trans-Siberian Railway is pushed faster and much is available in 1905.
This would allow the Russians to bring more troops into the region and
relieve Port Arthur.

9. A Russian victory at the Battle of Sandepu, since it was a close battle,
it could have gone either way.
Post by Alex Milman
So, on the land Russian troops are managing to push Japanese back. No need in the spectacular Cannae-like action favored by the modern Russian alt-writes, just steady moving forward with an ultimate goal to prevent blockade of Port Arthur (and not being beaten in a process). At some point front stabilizes and there are no major actions: aggressive moves proved to be too costly for both sides.
Few sorties with no serious results, perhaps a little bit more stress on mining. Basically, the Pacific squadron is bottled in Port Arthur.
No suicidal mission of the Baltic fleet (and no resulting major embarrassment). Japanese are more or less controlling the seas.
The only possible change is Russians using available resources to arm the high-speed steamships and use them the same way as the German raiders in WWI: Japan heavily depended upon the imports and any serious disruption could (optimistically) cause big problems.
With a stalemate achieved by the early 1905 both sides are ready to negotiate (directly or with the US as a mediator, does not matter). Let's say the peace leaves things more or less in pre-war situation with few minor adjustments here and there for the face saving on both sides.
The Japanese towards the end of the war were close to breaking point AS IS
the Russians had plenty of fight. A stalemate would most likely lead to a
Russian victory in the negotiating table failing that the Russians would
militarily drive out the Japanese from the area.
Post by Alex Milman
What are conditions and what are the short- and long-term consequences?
In Russia a shorter
It is implausible to be shorter unless the Russians win at sea which for
reasons you state here are unlikely.
As it was the Russians were shocked at the result anything, but a walkover
is not reasonable to them against a non European country. Here they have
lost two of their three fleets.

On the other hand, it would be seen as a just war, Russia was attacked and
defended herself well.
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Would probably prevent the mass unrest in 1905 thus making Constitution of 1905 less likely (but not impossible)
I would say impossible.


Furthermore, many military reforms were made by the Russians, which did
help, although much was wasted in my view because it was spent on the navy.
Post by Alex Milman
(b) Would strengthen the regime making "face-saving" actions of 1914 at least somewhat less likely.
Without the reforms bigger defeats in 1914 too.
Post by Alex Milman
In Japan the militaristic faction ends up being less powerful (and less self-assured). Long term consequences?
Japan had never suffered a military defeat; it might cause a major rethink
in Japan.
Post by Alex Milman
What else?
WW1 is not going to change, the Russians will lose bigger at the start
because their armies will not benefit from the reforms after 1905.
Alex Milman
2018-03-30 17:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
What if war of 1904 - 05 ended with a stalemate?
Russia is reasonably victorious on the land and Japan on the sea.
1st, it would require a long-term fundamental change in naval construction: in OTL Russian navy was heavily relying upon the French designs (not very good ones, to put it mildly).
2nd, there would be a need to move most of the Baltic fleet to the Pacific BEFORE the war.
3rd, AFAIK, the port facilities on the Far East were not adequate for serving the needs of a major war.
4th, naval base in Port Arthur (separated from Russia proper) added vulnerability.
Then come reasonably minor things like faulty construction of the armor-piercing shells, big openings in the desk-houses (hopefully, I'm using the right term :-)), a lot of exposed wood, etc.
1. Getting rid of the "shrapnel obsession" in a favor of the explosive shells.
2. Usage of the trenches (WWI style) as a main style of the field fortifications instead of sticking to the obsolete field forts and lunets which were leaving personnel unprotected from enemy's barrage.
3. Incorporate fortified (earth and wood) placements for the machine guns into the field fortifications, preferably with the embrasures on the sides (like the Finns had in Mannerheim Line) to make their detection more difficult.
4. Get rid of the obsolete "smoothbore artillery" ideology advocated by some old generals which required placing exposed artillery as close to the front line as possible and place the guns well behind the front line in the covered positions.
5. Take care of having more troops on the Far East by 1904 and to place in the region adequate supplies of ammunition.
6. Try to attract the local Chinese and use them for collecting intelligence: Russians were not too good but the Japanese were worse. Also, conduct a thorough mapping of the Russian Manchuria. Judging by the contemporary memoirs, Russian military intelligence in that war was absolutely inadequate and the same goes for the knowledge of the local geography.
7. This, of course, could be a serious problem but find the better generals for the top positions (both Kuropatkin and Linevich were inadequate for the role of c-in-c).
8. Trans-Siberian Railway is pushed faster and much is available in 1905.
This would allow the Russians to bring more troops into the region and
relieve Port Arthur.
In OTL the main Russian problem was not as much a shortage of troops (which was, of course, a factor) but rather shortage of supplies and general inadequacy of the Russian military rooted in a number of factors:

(a) Victory in 1878 brought to prominence a number of the quite capable generals who, based upon this specific experience, were putting stress on physical training of the troops while neglecting technology. For example, one of the most popular "ideologists", general Dragomirov, was mocking machine guns arguing that there is no need in killing person more than once. The next "idea fix" was bayonet charge (with the references going back to Suvorov), etc. The same, as I mentioned, was going to the usage of artillery: the same Dragomirov was arguing that, being the main support of the infantry, it should be placed as close to the front line as possible (who could resist references to the glory of the Napoleonic Wars?). As a result, in OTL Russian artillery suffered heavy losses on the earlier stages of the battles.

(b) More or less the same goes to training the soldiers to dig real full-profile trenches. Instead, the field fortifications had been built along the lines of the 1877-8 serving no useful purpose in the terms of saving the troops from enemy's fire (experience of the Crimean War - defense of Sevastopol could be much more useful ;-)).

(c) Presence of the Grand Dukes on the important military positions was a disaster. Even putting aside the "activities" of the last Russian Admiral-General (who could be "credited" with the disastrous design of the Russian navy and no less disastrous selection of the naval shells in the RJW), having one of them as inspector-general of artillery definitely had a noticeable negative impact: almost complete absence of the explosive shells (and those available having too weak charge).

(d) Inadequacy of the field command. To start with, the structure was faulty: there was a vice-roy (namestnik) of the Far East, an admiral (of a dubious competence) to whom c-in-c was formally subordinated (at least initially) and both Russian c-in-c's of the RJW had been patently unfit for the position. Linevich was old and inept and Kuropatkin made his career as a chief of staff of a strong-willed and energetic commander (which means was good at a paperwork but void of initiative and low on his own will power). And, as you understand, problems on the top tend to spread down the chain of command.
Post by SolomonW
9. A Russian victory at the Battle of Sandepu, since it was a close battle,
it could have gone either way.
This could be a byproduct of other items.
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
So, on the land Russian troops are managing to push Japanese back. No need in the spectacular Cannae-like action favored by the modern Russian alt-writes, just steady moving forward with an ultimate goal to prevent blockade of Port Arthur (and not being beaten in a process). At some point front stabilizes and there are no major actions: aggressive moves proved to be too costly for both sides.
Few sorties with no serious results, perhaps a little bit more stress on mining. Basically, the Pacific squadron is bottled in Port Arthur.
No suicidal mission of the Baltic fleet (and no resulting major embarrassment). Japanese are more or less controlling the seas.
The only possible change is Russians using available resources to arm the high-speed steamships and use them the same way as the German raiders in WWI: Japan heavily depended upon the imports and any serious disruption could (optimistically) cause big problems.
With a stalemate achieved by the early 1905 both sides are ready to negotiate (directly or with the US as a mediator, does not matter). Let's say the peace leaves things more or less in pre-war situation with few minor adjustments here and there for the face saving on both sides.
The Japanese towards the end of the war were close to breaking point AS IS
the Russians had plenty of fight. A stalemate would most likely lead to a
Russian victory in the negotiating table failing that the Russians would
militarily drive out the Japanese from the area.
Indeed. But what would the Russian side be asking for? The whole thing started with Russia grabbing more than was agreed upon and I have no idea if they had any design on something greater.
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
What are conditions and what are the short- and long-term consequences?
In Russia a shorter
It is implausible to be shorter unless the Russians win at sea which for
reasons you state here are unlikely.
Well, if Japan suffers significant offsets on land and is not achieving anything spectacular on the sea (Russian Pacific fleet is preserved even if it is passive) and Port Arthur is not falling to Japan then the whole thing starts looking pretty much pointless unless military party in Japan is hell-bent to keep fighting no matter what (to which purpose?).
Post by SolomonW
As it was the Russians were shocked at the result anything, but a walkover
is not reasonable to them against a non European country. Here they have
lost two of their three fleets.
In ATL they did not (see above). Port Arthur squadron suffers some losses but so does Japanese navy but it is safe and even can conduct some small scale operations. The Baltic fleet is not sailing to the Pacific.

OTOH, the land operations are successful so the face is saved.
Post by SolomonW
On the other hand, it would be seen as a just war, Russia was attacked and
defended herself well.
Yes. As long as the whole thing does not require a massive mobilization (which may cause the OTL-like unrest), everything is reasonably fine and peachy.
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
(a) Would probably prevent the mass unrest in 1905 thus making Constitution of 1905 less likely (but not impossible)
I would say impossible.
Of course, NII is in a much better political position but there could be some political pressure in a constitutional direction.

Of course, it could be (and had been) argued that an absolute monarchy was better than OTL Constitution in the terms of regime preservation. My only comment on the subject is that historically the "democratic forces" in the Russian Empire/SU/Russia were routinely good in the negative area (especially, criticism of the regime and its shortcoming) while being absolutely incapable of doing something meaningful in a positive area.:-)

[No, I'm NOT saying that absolute monarchy/communist rule/authoritarian regime were/are a good thing, just that any of the alternatives proved to be incapable to produce anything but a disaster.]
Post by SolomonW
Furthermore, many military reforms were made by the Russians, which did
help, although much was wasted in my view because it was spent on the navy.
Very good point.

Of course, it is an open question if the Black Sea fleet really needed 3 (?) dreadnoughts to counter a single German battle cruiser.

Then, the Baltic fleet would be (and was in OTL) of a very limited value in the case of the war against Germany and probably it would be better to develop a type of the ships oriented toward the coastal defenses (heavy armor, heavy artillery, reasonably short range, no need of a high speed and no need in 12x12" guns per ship, rather more of the smaller ones with the main goal to support the coastal defenses) than witlessly following the general trend of building the dreadnoughts.

As far as the Pacific Fleet was involved, there could be meaningful perspectives but only in the case when the local heavy industry is developed enough to support at least the maintenance & repair needs of such a navy. Ditto for the Northern fleet, which was practically absent.

Of course, the resources freed by NOT building a single capital ship would allow to produce quite a few weapons and munitions for an army.
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
(b) Would strengthen the regime making "face-saving" actions of 1914 at least somewhat less likely.
Without the reforms bigger defeats in 1914 too.
Actually, this ATL incorporates quite a few reforms which happened only during the WWI and which, if implemented in 1904, would help a lot in 1914.
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
In Japan the militaristic faction ends up being less powerful (and less self-assured). Long term consequences?
Japan had never suffered a military defeat;
Well, this was its 1st "European war"
Post by SolomonW
it might cause a major rethink
in Japan.
Would such a rethinking impact policy toward China?
Post by SolomonW
Post by Alex Milman
What else?
WW1 is not going to change, the Russians will lose bigger at the start
because their armies will not benefit from the reforms after 1905.
1st, see above about many of these reforms being implemented in 1904.

2nd, even with a victorious war against Japan, Russia would need to keep up with the European trends, which means that the rearmament program would be there anyway. Probably even earlier if there are no financial and political offsets of the OTL defeat in 1905.
Rob
2018-04-01 02:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Well obviously in winning the war Russia gets to keep South Sakhalin and port Arthur and it has exclusive influence over Manchuria. We did not discuss Korea or Russia beginning a land campaign there. But would Russia demand Japanese departure from Kirea or at least a recognized Russian sphere in the north?

I believe at one point the Russians sought a timber concession containing all of modern North Korea.

Getting a Chinese spy ring my not be that easy. Elite Chinese tended to prefer Japan over Russia in 1904 and 1905 and far more of them had gone to school in Japan than Russia.

Also the Russian massacres and looting in Manchuria during Boxer Suppression were worse than anything the Japanese at the time. Russia had gained some good will with the Chinese with the Triple Intervention of 1895, briefly gaining a de facto alliance with China, but that good will was squandered through the Russian forced lease of Port Arthur and the massacres after the Boxer rebellion began.
Alex Milman
2018-04-01 14:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Well obviously in winning the war Russia gets to keep South Sakhalin and port Arthur and it has exclusive influence over Manchuria. We did not discuss Korea or Russia beginning a land campaign there. But would Russia demand Japanese departure from Kirea or at least a recognized Russian sphere in the north?
I believe at one point the Russians sought a timber concession containing all of modern North Korea.
Yes, so-called "Bezobrazow's adventure" (pushed through against the opposition of the financial, military and foreign affairs ministries), which led to the war. Timber concession was just icing on the cake. His idea involved a complete control over ALL Manchuria (military and administrative presence, full mineral rights, etc.) and North Korea with Japan "generously" given South Korea.
Post by Rob
Getting a Chinese spy ring my not be that easy. Elite Chinese tended to prefer Japan over Russia in 1904 and 1905 and far more of them had gone to school in Japan than Russia.
But "non-elite" ones would be easier: in OTL the timber company you mentioned had been using services of one of the leading local bandits (who also managed to serve in Chinese army).
Rob
2018-04-04 22:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Well obviously in winning the war Russia gets to keep South Sakhalin and port Arthur and it has exclusive influence over Manchuria. We did not discuss Korea or Russia beginning a land campaign there. But would Russia demand Japanese departure from Kirea or at least a recognized Russian sphere in the north?
I believe at one point the Russians sought a timber concession containing all of modern North Korea.
Yes, so-called "Bezobrazow's adventure" (pushed through against the opposition of the financial, military and foreign affairs ministries), which led to the war. Timber concession was just icing on the cake. His idea involved a complete control over ALL Manchuria (military and administrative presence, full mineral rights, etc.) and North Korea with Japan "generously" given South Korea.
So in the TL you are positing that the Russians lift the siege of Port Arthur, that solidifies them in Manchuria, but the Japanese are still in position to annex Korea by 1910?
Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Getting a Chinese spy ring my not be that easy. Elite Chinese tended to prefer Japan over Russia in 1904 and 1905 and far more of them had gone to school in Japan than Russia.
But "non-elite" ones would be easier: in OTL the timber company you mentioned had been using services of one of the leading local bandits (who also managed to serve in Chinese army).
I suppose anyone willing to outlay cash could get a lot of information, and some of it could be useful.

OK, so going back to your OP and a Russian victory on land in Asia. What are the odds of Russia thinking within a decade, by 1915, that the next Russo-Ottoman War is overdue?

And aside from that, how will this affect Bosnia 1908?
Alex Milman
2018-04-05 00:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Well obviously in winning the war Russia gets to keep South Sakhalin and port Arthur and it has exclusive influence over Manchuria. We did not discuss Korea or Russia beginning a land campaign there. But would Russia demand Japanese departure from Kirea or at least a recognized Russian sphere in the north?
I believe at one point the Russians sought a timber concession containing all of modern North Korea.
Yes, so-called "Bezobrazow's adventure" (pushed through against the opposition of the financial, military and foreign affairs ministries), which led to the war. Timber concession was just icing on the cake. His idea involved a complete control over ALL Manchuria (military and administrative presence, full mineral rights, etc.) and North Korea with Japan "generously" given South Korea.
So in the TL you are positing that the Russians lift the siege of Port Arthur, that solidifies them in Manchuria, but the Japanese are still in position to annex Korea by 1910?
Yes, so that each side is getting something valuable. IIRC, Russia had a concession for building a railroad all the way to Seoul but the rules of exploitation and profits sharing can be negotiated with Japan
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Eastern_Railway#/media/File:Chinese_Eastern_Railway-en.svg)
Post by Rob
Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Getting a Chinese spy ring my not be that easy. Elite Chinese tended to prefer Japan over Russia in 1904 and 1905 and far more of them had gone to school in Japan than Russia.
But "non-elite" ones would be easier: in OTL the timber company you mentioned had been using services of one of the leading local bandits (who also managed to serve in Chinese army).
I suppose anyone willing to outlay cash could get a lot of information, and some of it could be useful.
Yes. However, during the war the Russian troops did not even have adequate maps of Manchuria, not to mention information about Japanese troops movements, etc.
Post by Rob
OK, so going back to your OP and a Russian victory on land in Asia. What are the odds of Russia thinking within a decade, by 1915, that the next Russo-Ottoman War is overdue?
"Russia thinking" assumes that it has a single mind. :-)

I'm not quite sure if by that time <whoever were capable of thinking> were too much into the Ottoman war: the main potential opponents were Germany and A-H. BTW, 1915 assumes that WWI is not starting on schedule?
Post by Rob
And aside from that, how will this affect Bosnia 1908?
IMO, with a tangible success elsewhere the whole Bosnian thing would not be too important politically.
Scott Kozel
2018-04-05 01:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Very different Imperial Japanese Navy culture and strategy
and tactics. The catastrophic defeat of the Russian navy
by Japan led to the IJN adopting the "one decisive battle"
strategy that they tried to utilize in WW II, which was totally
inappropriate for an opponent as large and powerful as the
US Navy.

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