Hitler dies in July 1941

[WolfBear]

What if Adolf Hitler would have died in July 1941? For instance, he can accomplish this by choking to death on a piece of food.

In such a scenario, Operation Barbarossa would have recently begun and Goering--as per Hitler's wishes--would have become the new German Fuhrer.

Anyway, what exactly does Goering do afterwards? For instance, does he do anything differently in regards to Operation Barbarossa? Also, does the U.S. still enter the war in December 1941 in this TL? Indeed, does Japan still attack Pearl Harbor in December 1941 in this TL?

Also, is there going to be an attempt by some other top Nazi(s) to overthrow Goering sooner or later?

In addition to this, would Goering be willing to try negotiating a Brest-Litovsk-style peace with Stalin in late 1941? If so, would these negotiations have actually succeeded?

Finally, would Goering have tried to stop or at least reduce the mass murder of Jews that was beginning to occur in Eastern Europe during this time? Or would Goering have had little success controlling the bloodthirsty SS and their local collaborators?

Any thoughts on all of this?

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by WolfBear
Any thoughts on all of this?

I think Goering would have wanted to end the war
as quickly as possible. He was opposed to BARBAROSSA,
but dared not say so to Hitler. He was in any case
a "Wilhelmine imperialist", who wanted Germany to be
a Great Power and acquire various cookies, but not a
messianic conqueror.

He could propose a separate peace to Stalin; would
Stalin buy it?

In summer 1941, Soviet forces were being routed
everywhere, it seemed, and even Stalin must have
had his doubts.

OTOH, the Germans had a bad case of "victory
disease" at that time, and even Goering might
feel that it was just a matter of sweeping up
the chips. (I.e., there was no point in making
deals with USSR, because it was effectively
destroyed.) However, this would surely change by
the end of 1941, as Soviet resistance reappeared.

An attempt to settle with the USSR becomes more
likely, but less practical.

I don't think the Schwarz Kapelle was in position
to overthrow Goering right then; but if the war
in the east continues as OTL, the "setback" of
defeat at Moscow may be enough.

Goering probably moves to rein in the SS, not from
humanitarian motives but to limit the power of his
rival Himmler. I don't see any other senior Nazi
with the position to usurp Goering.

I doubt if it would have any affect on Japan's
intentions or plans.

[WolfBear]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by WolfBear
Any thoughts on all of this?

I think Goering would have wanted to end the war
as quickly as possible.

In theory, Yes. However, please keep in mind that if Goering ends the war with the Soviet Union early without getting significant territorial concessions from the Soviet Union, then hardline Nazis might attempt to overthrow him. After all, squandering the fruits of a German victory in the East is probably not going to be looked at very well by other Nazis.

Post by Rich Rostrom
He was opposed to BARBAROSSA,
but dared not say so to Hitler. He was in any case
a "Wilhelmine imperialist", who wanted Germany to be
a Great Power and acquire various cookies, but not a
messianic conqueror.

Yes, this is absolutely correct. However, the problem for Goering is that Operation Barbarossa has already begun and it might very well be suicidal for him to end the war in the East without getting significant territorial concessions in return. (Indeed, as I wrote above, hardline Nazis might try overthrowing Goering if he makes a separate peace with Stalin without large-scale territorial concessions to Nazi Germany.)

Once it will become clear that Nazi Germany is not going to win its war with the Soviet Union, though, *then* Goering would have more wiggle room in regards to peace talks--if Stalin will actually be interested, that is.

Post by Rich Rostrom
He could propose a separate peace to Stalin; would
Stalin buy it?

Depends on what exactly Goering is offering, I suppose. Indeed, would a Brest-Litovsk-style peace treaty be too much for Stalin to accept and swallow in late 1941?

Post by Rich Rostrom
In summer 1941, Soviet forces were being routed
everywhere, it seemed, and even Stalin must have
had his doubts.

Agreed.

Post by Rich Rostrom
OTOH, the Germans had a bad case of "victory
disease" at that time, and even Goering might
feel that it was just a matter of sweeping up
the chips. (I.e., there was no point in making
deals with USSR, because it was effectively
destroyed.)

Yeah, it might be tempting for Goering to try going all in against the Soviet Union even if Stalin agrees to a Brest-Litovsk-style peace treaty. After all, Goering might conclude that if the Soviet Union survives--even in a weakened form--then it could rejoin the war against Nazi Germany at some future point in time. (Indeed, this would be especially true if Stalin is going to hand over Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states to Nazi Germany but relocate most or all of the industry there further east beforehand--thus causing Nazi Germany to have a lot of territories with little remaining industry on them.)

Post by Rich Rostrom
However, this would surely change by
the end of 1941, as Soviet resistance reappeared.

Agreed.

Post by Rich Rostrom
An attempt to settle with the USSR becomes more
likely, but less practical.

Agreed--especially if the U.S. will still enter the war by that point in time (as it did in our TL).

Post by Rich Rostrom
I don't think the Schwarz Kapelle was in position
to overthrow Goering right then; but if the war
in the east continues as OTL, the "setback" of
defeat at Moscow may be enough.

Out of curiosity--you don't think that Goering could have defeated the Soviet Union, correct? For instance, even if Goering would have attacked Moscow rather than Kiev in September 1941, you think that Nazi Germany would have still failed--in this case, due to it being overextended and vulnerable due to it having a large salient in the Moscow area--correct?

Also, in regards to the Schwarze Kapelle, it might really depend on just how severe the defeat at Moscow is. If it's "only" as bad as in our TL, then the Schwarze Kapelle might wait for an additional defeat or two before trying to overthrow Goering.

In addition to this, as a side note, might other top Nazis also be interested in overthrowing Goering during this time? Indeed, would Goering have inspired the same loyalty among other top Nazis as Hitler did in our TL? Or would other top Nazis have viewed Goering as a German Fuhrer who only got where he is due to pure luck and who is thus undeserving of his post?

Finally, I am assuming that an alliance between the Schwarze Kapelle and other top Nazis to remove Goering would be out of the question due to the fact that some of the other top Nazis--such as Himmler and Heydrich--were involved in war crimes, correct?

Post by Rich Rostrom
Goering probably moves to rein in the SS, not from
humanitarian motives but to limit the power of his
rival Himmler. I don't see any other senior Nazi
with the position to usurp Goering.

What about Heydrich?

Post by Rich Rostrom
I doubt if it would have any affect on Japan's
intentions or plans.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by Rich Rostrom
I don't see any other senior Nazi

Post by Rich Rostrom
with the position to usurp Goering.

What about Heydrich?

He wasn't senior enough; he took orders
from both Goering and Himmler.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by WolfBear
Out of curiosity--you don't think that Goering could
have defeated the Soviet Union, correct?

I doubt if Germany could have broken the USSR in 1941.

Post by WolfBear
For instance, even if Goering would have attacked Moscow
rather than Kiev in September 1941, you think that
Nazi Germany would have still failed...

It's not clear to me that Army Group Center could have
taken Moscow as an extension of the initial rush. The
pause while II Panzer Army and II Army moved against
the Kiev pocket allowed supplies and support to move
up and sustain the renewed advance. In August, AGC was
exhausted.

Post by WolfBear
Also, in regards to the Schwarze Kapelle, it might
really depend on just how severe the defeat at
Moscow is. If it's "only" as bad as in our TL, then
the Schwarze Kapelle might wait for an additional
defeat or two before trying to overthrow Goering.

But there is one huge difference - Goering is not
Hitler. He does not have Hitler's charisma, his
aura, his record of success. Nor (IMO) would Goering
demand that the Army swear personal allegiance to him
as it did to Hitler.

Thus it would be much easier to organize a coup against
Goering.

[SolomonW]

Post by Rich Rostrom
I don't think the Schwarz Kapelle was in position
to overthrow Goering right then; but if the war
in the east continues as OTL, the "setback" of
defeat at Moscow may be enough.

The winter of 1941, was one that many feel was one of Hitler's greatest
moments with his stand firm order, although I have read some that disagree,
if Goering was in charge, the German army might have been broken then.

[WolfBear]

Also, one more question--does Goering try to control the SS and their local collaborators in order to halt or at least reduce the mass murder of Jews in the East?

In addition to this, does the Wannssee Conference still produce the same decision (extermination of all Jews under Nazi rule) in this TL? Or does Goering--in an attempt to try saving his own skin in the event of a Nazi defeat in World War II--tell Himmler, Heydrich, and their subordinates that the Jews are *not* going to be murdered en masse in this TL?

[Les]

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 10:41:57 PM UTC-4, WolfBear wrote:

(stuff deleted)

Post by WolfBear
Anyway, what exactly does Goering do afterwards?

He would probably consolidate his hold on power. Himmler and his SS pose a threat against him. Bormann could be a wild card, but since his main power base was his control of access to Hitler, he is highly vulnerable. Goebbles would likely fall into line. Goering would probably expel Ribbentrop without much trouble.

Post by WolfBear
For instance, does he do anything differently in regards to Operation Barbarossa?

He would most likely support the offensive until it bogs down. At that point, he would be motivated to propose terms, and then turn his attention against the UK. Goering seemed to believe even after his failure during the Battle of Britain that he could bomb the UK into submission. I believe he would settle in the east so he could try to resume the Battle of Britain.

Post by WolfBear
Also, does the U.S. still enter the war in December 1941 in this TL? Indeed, does Japan still attack Pearl Harbor in December 1941 in this TL?

Most likely. Japan attacked for their own reasons. The difference this time around is that Goering may not declare war against Japan. That way, Germany can beat the USSR and UK before the US can turn it's attention back to Europe.

Post by WolfBear
Also, is there going to be an attempt by some other top Nazi(s) to overthrow Goering sooner or later?

Probably. Goering liked living the high life and made no secret of it, but the only real threat to him is going to be Himmler.

Post by WolfBear
In addition to this, would Goering be willing to try negotiating a Brest-Litovsk-style peace with Stalin in late 1941? If so, would these negotiations have actually succeeded?

That depends on Goering's timing. Stalin did put out peace feelers when the Germans were beating the Soviets like a drum. Goering wanted to neutralize the UK, and still believed his Luftwaffe could do the job. Goering might be tempted to settle the Eastern Front, then re-enact the Battle of Britain.

However, here is the dilemma: Goering is going to get the full picture of Germany's economic outlook. Resuming the war against the UK is going to be resource intensive. Goering may conclude (like Hitler) the best way to secure them is to proceed with the goals of Barbarossa.

Note that Goering failed to realize he was losing the Battle of Britain. Consequently, he may not try to settle things with Stalin until after it is obvious Germany cannot quickly knock out the USSR. That means that Stalin is less likely to strike a deal because he concludes the USSR can win this war, and has to win it.

Post by WolfBear
Finally, would Goering have tried to stop or at least reduce the mass murder of Jews that was beginning to occur in Eastern Europe during this time? Or would Goering have had little success controlling the bloodthirsty SS and their local collaborators?

(rest of post deleted)

Goering might curtail the Holocaust for practical reasons, and had political reasons to keep the SS under heel, but I don't see him stopping it. While the slave camps and slave farms would rival the gulags, they may not have the express goal of assembly-line genocide.

[e***@gmail.com]

Post by WolfBear
What if Adolf Hitler would have died in July 1941? For instance, he can accomplish this by choking to death on a piece of food.
In such a scenario, Operation Barbarossa would have recently begun and Goering--as per Hitler's wishes--would have become the new German Fuhrer.
Anyway, what exactly does Goering do afterwards? For instance, does he do anything differently in regards to Operation Barbarossa? Also, does the U.S. still enter the war in December 1941 in this TL? Indeed, does Japan still attack Pearl Harbor in December 1941 in this TL?
Also, is there going to be an attempt by some other top Nazi(s) to overthrow Goering sooner or later?
In addition to this, would Goering be willing to try negotiating a Brest-Litovsk-style peace with Stalin in late 1941? If so, would these negotiations have actually succeeded?
Finally, would Goering have tried to stop or at least reduce the mass murder of Jews that was beginning to occur in Eastern Europe during this time? Or would Goering have had little success controlling the bloodthirsty SS and their local collaborators?
Any thoughts on all of this?

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