WI: As a part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, all Jews under Nazi rule get deported to the Soviet Union?

Possibly most of the Jews who survived in Europe was because of this in the
OTL.

Post by WolfBear
Thus, I was thinking about this--I know that this would be extremely out of character for Stalin given his general disregard for human life, but would Hitler have accepted a hypothetical Soviet offer to take in all Jews under Nazi rule in 1939-1940 (as a part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, of course)? After all, it seems like a "great" way for Nazi Germany to deal with its "Jewish problem," no?

Yes if offered, at that time Germany did not know what to do about its
Jewish problem.

Post by WolfBear
Also, as a side note, let's say that in this TL Stalin is going to figure out Hitler's genocidal intentions ahead of time (which isn't 100% impossible, given Hitler's "prophecy" in January 1939 that European Jewry will get annihilated if a new World War will break out) and deport all Soviet Jews (of whom there are a lot more in this TL due to the mass deportations of Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe into the Soviet Union) east of the Urals before the start of Operation Barbarossa so that Hitler can't get to them. The logic behind this would be quite simple--it's better to have millions of Jews work for you than be killed by Hitler.

Stalin would not care even if he did work it out, later Stalin we believe
planned his own genocidal plan to get rid of the Jews in Russia.

Post by WolfBear
Anyway, would this be logistically possible to pull off before the start of Operation Barbarossa?
Finally, as a side note, how will Jewish history from 1939 onward be affected in this TL? After all, in this TL, almost all of the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust will survive it (though several hundred thousand of them are probably going to be killed fighting on behalf of the Red Army in World War II). Also, in this TL, the Allied coalition that won World War II (Britain, the U.S., and the Soviet Union) would still win it, with the Cold War still following World War II in this TL.

It would change much. Probably the Jewish population would be double what
it is now.

Post by WolfBear
Indeed, any thoughts on this?

You have them.

The Horny Goat

2018-02-18 02:35:03 UTC

Post by WolfBear
I've been curious about this--basically, in a TL where France still falls in 1940, the only way to save most of the six million Jews who were killed in the Holocaust in our TL would be to get them to the Soviet Union and then to have them flee to the interior of the Soviet Union after the start of Operation Barbarossa.
Thus, I was thinking about this--I know that this would be extremely out of character for Stalin given his general disregard for human life, but would Hitler have accepted a hypothetical Soviet offer to take in all Jews under Nazi rule in 1939-1940 (as a part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, of course)? After all, it seems like a "great" way for Nazi Germany to deal with its "Jewish problem," no?
Also, as a side note, let's say that in this TL Stalin is going to figure out Hitler's genocidal intentions ahead of time (which isn't 100% impossible, given Hitler's "prophecy" in January 1939 that European Jewry will get annihilated if a new World War will break out) and deport all Soviet Jews (of whom there are a lot more in this TL due to the mass deportations of Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe into the Soviet Union) east of the Urals before the start of Operation Barbarossa so that Hitler can't get to them. The logic behind this would be quite simple--it's better to have millions of Jews work for you than be killed by Hitler. Anyway, would this be logistically possible to pull off before the start of Operation Barbarossa?
Finally, as a side note, how will Jewish history from 1939 onward be affected in this TL? After all, in this TL, almost all of the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust will survive it (though several hundred thousand of them are probably going to be killed fighting on behalf of the Red Army in World War II). Also, in this TL, the Allied coalition that won World War II (Britain, the U.S., and the Soviet Union) would still win it, with the Cold War still following World War II in this TL.
Indeed, any thoughts on this?

Even assuming Stalin were willing were the logistics in place to get
them from France, Norway and the Low Countries by 22 June 1941 based
on a start time of 1 July 1940? (Which is pretty much when the French
campaign wound up)

Presumably if the history of Israel in 1947-48 is as per OTL the
Soviets and not the US would have been their major sponsor though
there would be fewer Jews available to emigrate to Israel post-1945
(1) because many of the Jews relocated to the Soviet Union would have
been sent to the western USSR (i.e. the areas that were German
occupied) and (2) Stalin would not want to give up a highly educated
source of workers (which is what the Jews of Germany, Poland and these
countries largely were).

A 1950s era Communist Israel might be interesting even if it was just
a non-Communist Israel where the Israeli Communist party regularly
(but not always) took part in the ruling coalition. At the very least
it would have been "Finlandized"

SolomonW

2018-02-18 14:14:29 UTC

Even assuming Stalin were willing were the logistics in place to get
them from France, Norway and the Low Countries by 22 June 1941 based
on a start time of 1 July 1940? (Which is pretty much when the French
campaign wound up)
Presumably if the history of Israel in 1947-48 is as per OTL the
Soviets and not the US would have been their major sponsor though
there would be fewer Jews available to emigrate to Israel post-1945
(1) because many of the Jews relocated to the Soviet Union would have
been sent to the western USSR (i.e. the areas that were German
occupied) and (2) Stalin would not want to give up a highly educated
source of workers (which is what the Jews of Germany, Poland and these
countries largely were).

Most of the European Jews who survived in Russia were after WW2 sent back.
Eastern Europe countries would have sent them away as in the OTL.

Post by The Horny Goat
A 1950s era Communist Israel might be interesting even if it was just
a non-Communist Israel where the Israeli Communist party regularly
(but not always) took part in the ruling coalition. At the very least
it would have been "Finlandized"

Jews like anyone else with actual contact of a communist regime rarely vote
communist.

The Horny Goat

2018-02-18 16:39:00 UTC

Jews like anyone else with actual contact of a communist regime rarely vote
communist.

I was thinking of something like a French or Italian style Israeli
Communist party.

SolomonW

2018-02-19 00:48:03 UTC

Jews like anyone else with actual contact of a communist regime rarely vote
communist.

I was thinking of something like a French or Italian style Israeli
Communist party.

Russian Jews vote in the US, Republican and they vote in Israel Likud.

The Horny Goat

2018-02-19 01:22:18 UTC

Jews like anyone else with actual contact of a communist regime rarely vote
communist.

I was thinking of something like a French or Italian style Israeli
Communist party.

Russian Jews vote in the US, Republican and they vote in Israel Likud.

True - but we're discussing a scenario where the Soviet Union has been
"BFF" with Israel for the first ten years of the state of Israel. In
the scenario we're discussing Stalin WOULDN'T have given military aid
to Egypt just for starters. Without that aid there probably would not
have been anything like the 1956 Suez crisis or the Aswan Dam.

As such Nassar wouldn't have pursued the poliicies that led directly
to June 1967.

SolomonW

2018-02-19 04:30:42 UTC

Jews like anyone else with actual contact of a communist regime rarely vote
communist.

I was thinking of something like a French or Italian style Israeli
Communist party.

Russian Jews vote in the US, Republican and they vote in Israel Likud.

True - but we're discussing a scenario where the Soviet Union has been
"BFF" with Israel for the first ten years of the state of Israel. In
the scenario we're discussing Stalin WOULDN'T have given military aid
to Egypt just for starters. Without that aid there probably would not
have been anything like the 1956 Suez crisis or the Aswan Dam.
As such Nassar wouldn't have pursued the poliicies that led directly
to June 1967.

Even before this from the 1930s, Israel's society was firmly ruled under
the Labour party, and although it was very socialist, it hated communist.
We are not talking here socialism but its strong belief in personal
freedom. Despite the USSR recognized Israel and supplied it with arms in
1949, the Israeli Labour party took Israel into the US allegiance and
effectively dumped the communist.

The Horny Goat

2018-02-19 05:43:13 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
True - but we're discussing a scenario where the Soviet Union has been
"BFF" with Israel for the first ten years of the state of Israel. In
the scenario we're discussing Stalin WOULDN'T have given military aid
to Egypt just for starters. Without that aid there probably would not
have been anything like the 1956 Suez crisis or the Aswan Dam.
As such Nassar wouldn't have pursued the poliicies that led directly
to June 1967.

What I'm suggesting in this ATL is that the Soviets not the
US/UK/France were Israel's prime arms supplier in 1947/48.

I'm well aware Israelis are extremely individualistic compared to
North Americans and Europeans though the kibbutz movement (which is
reflected more in the North American coop movement than any Soviet
kolkhoz / sovkov equivalent) is an exception to that.

That said, any kibbutz leader who tried to exert the kind of top down
Soviet-style industrial management would be almost unanimously
rejected in near-record times!

[One can only speculate whether a Soviet Jew who was allowed to
emigrate to Israel in the 1940s would be more like his 40s-era
European counterpart or more like the typical Soviet Jew emigre of the
80s and 90s. My guess would be the former but I could easily be dead
wrong]

SolomonW

2018-02-19 12:54:09 UTC

What I'm suggesting in this ATL is that the Soviets not the
US/UK/France were Israel's prime arms supplier in 1947/48.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947%E2%80%9349

SolomonW

2018-02-22 13:50:38 UTC

What I'm suggesting in this ATL is that the Soviets not the
US/UK/France were Israel's prime arms supplier in 1947/48.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel_1947%E2%80%9349

I think you will find on the subject this article interesting

https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2017/11/who-saved-israel-in-1947/

Rich Rostrom

2018-02-25 07:22:31 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Russian Jews vote in the US, Republican and they vote in Israel Likud.

Except for those that vote Yisrael Beteinu (5.1% in 2015).

Which is arguably further right than Likud.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

jerry kraus

2018-02-19 14:04:11 UTC

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Actually, Wolf, I've been suggesting for years, in other threads, that that was the original intention of the Nazis in their planning of Barbarossa. That, during and following a successful invasion of the Soviet Union, Jews would be deported from Poland to the Soviet Union, to act as German agents under German control. And, that a remarkably mild pronouncement by non other than Reinhard Heydrich 10 days into the invasion -- when the Germans looked like they might conquer Russia in 3 weeks -- suggesting that Jews would be treated no worse than other Russians, is consistent with this. Note, the final solution was first mentioned by Goering only at the beginning of August, six weeks into the invasion, by which time the Nazis knew they would have a hell of a fight on their hands in Russia. So, exterminating all Jews would now be a psychological necessity for the Nazis to ensure that they could still maintain the fiction of being a Master Race, while the died in droves fighting in Russia. If Barbarossa had succeeded easily and quickly, why not simply make use of the Jews as German agents in Russia, after having been deported there? After all, they'd be isolated from the local population, and would therefore need the Nazis for support.

Rob

2018-02-24 01:15:45 UTC

I do not think there is much credibility behind the idea that Stalin was planning his own genocide of the Jews.

But, what is in it for Stalin in taking in all the Jews of Germany and Central Europe, regardless of age, infirmity, class background, relevant skills, or lack of relevant skills for his development plans?

If Stalin is willing to take in masses of German and Central European Jews from west of the new Soviet western border, but only on a selective basis that he thinks they are likely to be healthy contributors to the Soviet economy, without excessive ideological commitments making them hard to "digest" (for example ultra-orthodox or Zionist Jews probably would be seen as less tractable to the Soviet "program")?

And how the Soviet peoples react to a decision to take in masses of Jews? The ugly probability exists that this would ultimately encourage more non-Jewish Soviet citizens to collaborate with the Nazis when they do invade.

WolfBear

2018-02-24 04:21:56 UTC

Post by Rob

I do not think there is much credibility behind the idea that Stalin was planning his own genocide of the Jews.
But, what is in it for Stalin in taking in all the Jews of Germany and Central Europe, regardless of age, infirmity, class background, relevant skills, or lack of relevant skills for his development plans?
If Stalin is willing to take in masses of German and Central European Jews from west of the new Soviet western border, but only on a selective basis that he thinks they are likely to be healthy contributors to the Soviet economy, without excessive ideological commitments making them hard to "digest" (for example ultra-orthodox or Zionist Jews probably would be seen as less tractable to the Soviet "program")?

Yes, it does seem more realistic for Stalin to only agree to take in the Jews who could actually work (including those who could work in the future--specifically Jewish children).

Post by Rob
And how the Soviet peoples react to a decision to take in masses of Jews? The ugly probability exists that this would ultimately encourage more non-Jewish Soviet citizens to collaborate with the Nazis when they do invade.

To be honest, I doubt that having 7-8 million rather than 5 million Jews in the Soviet Union is going to make much of a difference. After all, would an increase in the American Jewish population by 2 or 3 million right now make Americans more anti-Semitic?

a***@gmail.com

2018-03-17 13:06:21 UTC