Would no "unconditional surrender" policy have shortened World War II? Also, if so, by how much?

[WolfBear]

Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional* surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II have been shortened? If so, by how much?

For instance, would there have been more support for an anti-Nazi coup in Germany in 1943-1944 had the Allies insisted on a conditional surrender? For instance, what I am thinking of is a surrender with these conditions:

1. Germany loses all of the territories that it acquired after 1937--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories getting expelled en masse to Germany.
2. In addition to its losses above, Germany loses East Prussia, eastern Pomerania, and the German part of Upper Silesia--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories likewise getting expelled en masse to Germany.
3. Austria will hold a new plebiscite under Allied supervision to determine whether or not it will remain a part of Germany.
4. Germany will remain united but will be forced to undergo an extremely extensive period of de-Nazification--including war crimes trials for whichever Nazis and Germans the Allies deem necessary.
5. Germany will be forced to pay some kind of reparations to both Holocaust survivors and the countries which were victims of German aggression in World War II.

Indeed, would all of these conditions have been acceptable to the Schwarze Kapelle? Or would they have felt that it's better to fight on--at least for a time--in the hopes of bleeding the Allies dry and thus getting the Allies to make some of these conditions more tolerable?

Also, in regards to Japan, had the Potsdam Declaration included an explicit provision allowing the Japanese monarchy to remain with a figurehead emperor (as in, either Hirohito or his eldest son), would Japan have been willing to surrender earlier?

Any thoughts on all of this?

[SolomonW]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional* surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II have been shortened? If so, by how much?

The purpose of the "unconditional surrender" policy was to keep the allies
united.

Post by WolfBear
1. Germany loses all of the territories that it acquired after 1937--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories getting expelled en masse to Germany.
2. In addition to its losses above, Germany loses East Prussia, eastern Pomerania, and the German part of Upper Silesia--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories likewise getting expelled en masse to Germany.
3. Austria will hold a new plebiscite under Allied supervision to determine whether or not it will remain a part of Germany.
4. Germany will remain united but will be forced to undergo an extremely extensive period of de-Nazification--including war crimes trials for whichever Nazis and Germans the Allies deem necessary.
5. Germany will be forced to pay some kind of reparations to both Holocaust survivors and the countries which were victims of German aggression in World War II.
Indeed, would all of these conditions have been acceptable to the Schwarze Kapelle? Or would they have felt that it's better to fight on--at least for a time--in the hopes of bleeding the Allies dry and thus getting the Allies to make some of these conditions more tolerable?

That is a very steep price for Germany to pay till after D-Day.

Post by WolfBear
Also, in regards to Japan, had the Potsdam Declaration included an explicit provision allowing the Japanese monarchy to remain with a figurehead emperor (as in, either Hirohito or his eldest son), would Japan have been willing to surrender earlier?

It was only after the atomic bomb was dropped that Japanese goverment
considered surrender.

Post by WolfBear
Any thoughts on all of this?

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional* surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II have been shortened? If so, by how much?

In short, what if the Allies had decided to conclude WW2 as they
had WW1, eh no?

WW3 would have been on for ~1968.

Post by WolfBear
1. Germany loses all of the territories that it acquired after 1937--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories getting expelled en masse to Germany.
2. In addition to its losses above, Germany loses East Prussia, eastern Pomerania, and the German part of Upper Silesia--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories likewise getting expelled en masse to Germany.
3. Austria will hold a new plebiscite under Allied supervision to determine whether or not it will remain a part of Germany.
4. Germany will remain united but will be forced to undergo an extremely extensive period of de-Nazification--including war crimes trials for whichever Nazis and Germans the Allies deem necessary.
5. Germany will be forced to pay some kind of reparations to both Holocaust survivors and the countries which were victims of German aggression in World War II.

How does that differ from what happened.

This is presupposing that the Soviets are willing to a) stop short
of destroying the Hitlerite Fascist Regime b) accept this "peace"
proposal.

Post by WolfBear
Indeed, would all of these conditions have been acceptable to the Schwarze Kapelle? Or would they have felt that it's better to fight on--at least for a time--in the hopes of bleeding the Allies dry and thus getting the Allies to make some of these conditions more tolerable?
Also, in regards to Japan, had the Potsdam Declaration included an explicit provision allowing the Japanese monarchy to remain with a figurehead emperor (as in, either Hirohito or his eldest son), would Japan have been willing to surrender earlier?
Any thoughts on all of this?

[a425couple]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional*
surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II
have been shortened? If so, by how much?

Oh, yes, by a bunch!
But that would have just been a temporary truce,
to allow for the Axis forces to regain their strength,
get their new weapons fully developed & stockpiled
(How about several thousand operational ME-262s?).

But that was not acceptable to any intelligent or wise
Allied leader.
Germany had twice in 30 years created massive death
and destruction in much of the world. The Allied
leaders were determined to not just allow a pause,
but to remove the problem.
The Treaty of Versailles had stopped the deaths,
but just set the world towards more problems.

Germany was not going to be allowed a third chance.
And Japan was not going to be allowed a second.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

[a425couple]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional*

- surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II
- have been shortened? If so, by how much?

Post by WolfBear
5. Germany will be forced to pay some kind of reparations to both

- Holocaust survivors and the countries which were victims of
- German aggression in World War II.

Because, you think the "reparations" required by
Treaty of Versailles, worked out well?
It just kept it a festering sore that could never be solved.

Post by WolfBear
4. Germany will remain united but will be forced to undergo

- an extremely extensive period of de-Nazification--including
- war crimes trials for whichever Nazis and Germans the
- Allies deem necessary.

How can you possibly do "de-Nazification" and "war crimes trials"
without boots on the ground?

If a truce is "conditional" you have to trust them to
run things themselves.
If they surrender "unconditionally", they are limp,
and you / the victor, are responsible to run things.

Who is in charge?
Who gets to make the final decision?
We may wish harmony, but at the end, somebody needs
to decide.

[a425couple]

Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional* surrender --
Also, in regards to Japan, had the Potsdam Declaration

- included an explicit provision allowing the Japanese monarchy
- to remain with a figurehead emperor (as in, either Hirohito
- or his eldest son),

That is a silly argument, they had only to ask!
Finally, they asked, and it was clarified as OK.

The Potsdam Declaration did not say anything
prohibiting the Emperor, but IT HAD to be by
the will of the people.

"The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from
Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and
there has been established, in accordance with the freely
expressed will of the Japanese people, a peacefully inclined
and responsible government."

- would Japan have been willing to surrender earlier?

Until the morning the 2nd Atomic Bomb was dropped on
Nagasaki, the ruling War Cabinet was still insisting
on keeping captured territory, no Allied troops on their
homeland, and being in control of any war crime trials,
that they decided to conduct.

That is a serious separation from reality, lots
of "insolence", "cheek" or "audacity", eh?

"In a June 1, 1945, poll, Americans favored prosecuting
the war into the homeland with it's attendant costs,
over yielding to a compromise peace by a margin of nearly
nine to one."
"Downfall" page 215

[a425couple]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional* surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II have been shortened?
Any thoughts on all of this?

My most serious thought, is that you need to buy
and read,
"Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire" by
Richard Frank.

Especially read the Indexed sections on "surrender"

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4998.Downfall
"In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a
scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a
comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's
comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a
*conditional* surrender by Germany (and Italy, and
Japan), would World War II have been shortened? If
so, by how much?

ITYM "accepted". The conditions would be sought by
Germany. That is, such conditions would be limits on
what the Allies could do to Germany or demand that
Germany do.

Post by WolfBear
For instance, would there have been more support for
an anti-Nazi coup in Germany in 1943-1944 had the
Allies insisted on a conditional surrender? For
instance, what I am thinking of is a surrender with
1. Germany loses all of the territories that it
acquired after 1937--with the ethnic German
population in all of these territories getting
expelled en masse to Germany.

Germany losing the Sudetenland _and_ forcible
expulsion of millions of volksdeutsch to Germany
is an absolute dealbreaker. Nobody in Germany
would accept this.

Post by WolfBear
2. In addition to its losses above, Germany loses
East Prussia, eastern Pomerania, and the German part
of Upper Silesia--with the ethnic German population
in all of these territories likewise getting
expelled en masse to Germany.

This is a _gigantic_ dealbreaker.

Post by WolfBear
3. Austria will hold a new plebiscite under Allied
supervision to determine whether or not it will
remain a part of Germany.

This would be marginally acceptable, especially since
the result of the plebiscite would almost certainly
be for union.

Post by WolfBear
4. Germany will remain united but will be forced to
undergo an extremely extensive period of
de-Nazification--including war crimes trials for
whichever Nazis and Germans the Allies deem
necessary.

And how will this be enforced?

Post by WolfBear
5. Germany will be forced to pay some kind of
reparations to both Holocaust survivors...

And slave laborers, Roma, Soviet PoWs, and the
myriad _other_ victims of Nazi crimes. And the
relatives of non-survivors.

Post by WolfBear
and the countries which were victims of German
aggression in World War II.

Who decides how much?

Post by WolfBear
Indeed, would all of these conditions have been
acceptable to the Schwarze Kapelle?

Obviously not.

But that is not really important.

The key is: what are the _other_ terms of surrender?

I.e. is Germany to be occupied by Allied troops?
And from which Allied countries?

Is the German government to be abolished?

Is the German Army to be abolished?

Post by WolfBear
Also, in regards to Japan, had the Potsdam
Declaration included an explicit provision allowing
the Japanese monarchy to remain with a figurehead
emperor (as in, either Hirohito or his eldest son),
would Japan have been willing to surrender earlier?

Probably not. The military hardliners were less
interested in preserving the monarchy than in
preserving the Japanese military establishment and
its domination of Japan.

[e***@gmail.com]

Post by WolfBear
Had the Allies in World War II insisted upon a *conditional* surrender by Germany (and Italy, and Japan), would World War II have been shortened? If so, by how much?
1. Germany loses all of the territories that it acquired after 1937--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories getting expelled en masse to Germany.
2. In addition to its losses above, Germany loses East Prussia, eastern Pomerania, and the German part of Upper Silesia--with the ethnic German population in all of these territories likewise getting expelled en masse to Germany.
3. Austria will hold a new plebiscite under Allied supervision to determine whether or not it will remain a part of Germany.
4. Germany will remain united but will be forced to undergo an extremely extensive period of de-Nazification--including war crimes trials for whichever Nazis and Germans the Allies deem necessary.
5. Germany will be forced to pay some kind of reparations to both Holocaust survivors and the countries which were victims of German aggression in World War II.
Indeed, would all of these conditions have been acceptable to the Schwarze Kapelle? Or would they have felt that it's better to fight on--at least for a time--in the hopes of bleeding the Allies dry and thus getting the Allies to make some of these conditions more tolerable?
Also, in regards to Japan, had the Potsdam Declaration included an explicit provision allowing the Japanese monarchy to remain with a figurehead emperor (as in, either Hirohito or his eldest son), would Japan have been willing to surrender earlier?
Any thoughts on all of this?

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