WI: William Shakespeare had actually understood Machiavelli

[jerry kraus]

"I'll drown more sailors than the mermaid shall; I'll slay more gazers than the basilisk; I'll play the orator as well as Nestor, Deceive more slily than Ulysses could, And, like a Sinon, take another Troy. I can add colours to the chameleon, Change shapes with Proteus for advantages, And set the murderous Machiavel to school."

Gloucester, Henry VI, Part III

Now, the people Machiavelli worked with were indeed murderous, most notably the entire Borgia Family, but, Machiavelli himself never hurt a fly. He was a brilliant and fearless intellectual who sought to improve the lives of the people of Italy, in particular by effective central government. He mimes the role of the autocrat, but, is probably at heart a Democrat. His writings in the Prince, favoring autocracy, are likely to some extent ironic, or satirical.

So, suppose William Shakespeare actually understood all this, instead of taking Machiavelli too literally, and infused Machiavelli's actual views into his famous works. Does this change history?

I got this idea from a wonderful depiction of Machiavelli in a new Gary Corby story in the newly released collection, "The Usual Santas"

http://garycorby.com/blog//the-usual-santas#comments-59fab510e2c4830c47d2b535=


to which I paid him a compliment in a comment that he seemed to appreciate.

[Graham Truesdale]

Post by jerry kraus
"I'll drown more sailors than the mermaid shall; I'll slay more gazers than the basilisk; I'll play the orator as well as Nestor, Deceive more slily than Ulysses could, And, like a Sinon, take another Troy. I can add colours to the chameleon, Change shapes with Proteus for advantages, And set the murderous Machiavel to school."
Gloucester, Henry VI, Part III
Now, the people Machiavelli worked with were indeed murderous, most notably the entire Borgia Family, but, Machiavelli himself never hurt a fly. He was a brilliant and fearless intellectual who sought to improve the lives of the people of Italy, in particular by effective central government. He mimes the role of the autocrat, but, is probably at heart a Democrat. His writings in the Prince, favoring autocracy, are likely to some extent ironic, or satirical.
So, suppose William Shakespeare actually understood all this, instead of taking Machiavelli too literally, and infused Machiavelli's actual views into his famous works. Does this change history?

Perhaps the Bard considered Machiavelli guilty of incitement to murder/counselling murder/procuring murder? I'm not sure how well-developed this area of law was in his day.

[jerry kraus]

Post by Graham Truesdale

Post by jerry kraus
"I'll drown more sailors than the mermaid shall; I'll slay more gazers than the basilisk; I'll play the orator as well as Nestor, Deceive more slily than Ulysses could, And, like a Sinon, take another Troy. I can add colours to the chameleon, Change shapes with Proteus for advantages, And set the murderous Machiavel to school."
Gloucester, Henry VI, Part III
Now, the people Machiavelli worked with were indeed murderous, most notably the entire Borgia Family, but, Machiavelli himself never hurt a fly. He was a brilliant and fearless intellectual who sought to improve the lives of the people of Italy, in particular by effective central government. He mimes the role of the autocrat, but, is probably at heart a Democrat. His writings in the Prince, favoring autocracy, are likely to some extent ironic, or satirical.
So, suppose William Shakespeare actually understood all this, instead of taking Machiavelli too literally, and infused Machiavelli's actual views into his famous works. Does this change history?

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Post by Graham Truesdale
Perhaps the Bard considered Machiavelli guilty of incitement to murder/counselling murder/procuring murder? I'm not sure how well-developed this area of law was in his day.

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Oh, I'm sure Shakespeare did, that's the point. But, really, he wasn't counseling anybody to anything, I don't believe, murder was absolutely second nature to contemporary Italian Nobles, they couldn't have possibly survived without it. So, really, Machiavelli is simply describing how the Italian Nobility actually behaved, and is satirizing their behavior. Effectively, in so doing, he is discrediting the whole concept of aristocracy, and is advocating democracy. I don't think this is a particularly controversial view of Machiavelli, and I believe this would be what many historians would accept as his actual intentions, Graham.

So, suppose Shakespeare actually reads Machiavelli as satire of aristocracy, and advocacy for democracy. Would this have affected the contents of Shakespeare's plays? Would a more democratic Shakespeare in ATL -- I don't think there's any question that his plays OTL are aristocratic in nature, after all -- have changed the course of history at all? Would his Royal Patrons have tolerated a more democratic Shakespeare?