Discussion:
Tank Design and keeping abreast of the best
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alo
2020-01-27 21:07:46 UTC
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Tank Design

With the western allies always one if not two tank designs behind the
Germans, did they ever have a T-34 delivered to them to evaluate it
against what was coming off their production lines?

If they did...was it ever a possibility they could have adopted it
(improved on it) and churned it out like the Soviets did?
Rich Rostrom
2020-01-28 01:43:10 UTC
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Post by alo
Tank Design
With the western allies always one if not two tank designs behind the
Germans, did they ever have a T-34 delivered to them to evaluate it
against what was coming off their production lines?
If they did...was it ever a possibility they could have adopted it
(improved on it) and churned it out like the Soviets did?
The T-34 was basically equivalent to the M4 Sherman.

The T-34 came into service a little earlier, and had a
slightly more powerful gun (76.2mm vs 75mm; later the
Sherman mounted a 76.2mm while the T-34 was upgunned
to 85mm). However, AP performance was very similar.

The T-34 had wider tracks which was better for mobility
on soft ground, i.e. mud.

However, the Sherman had a more reliable engine and
transmission. The Soviets used Shermans to equip
Guards Tank Corps for deep breakthrough operations,
where they needed tanks that could drive long distances
without breaking down.

The Sherman also had better ergonomics than the T-34. The
Soviets skimped on crew comfort, which is understandable,
but did have costs in crew effectiveness.

Finally, the Sherman had a gyro-stabilized main gun which
could fire on the move.

So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
pyotr filipivich
2020-01-29 03:01:19 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
Post by Rich Rostrom
--
--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.
Ned Latham
2020-01-29 03:23:49 UTC
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Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
pyotr filipivich
2020-01-29 06:36:58 UTC
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Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
Yep That last was an important factor.

I recall a war game set on the eastern front You got to roll for
reinforcement's replacements. As I recall, the Germans rarely got
replacement tanks, but the Red got T-34s just about every round.
--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.
ZZyXX
2020-01-30 01:18:49 UTC
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Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
quantity has a quality of it's own
Ned Latham
2020-01-30 01:49:23 UTC
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Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
ZZyXX
2020-01-31 02:29:18 UTC
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Post by Ned Latham
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
I forget who said it, possibly Patton
pyotr filipivich
2020-01-31 03:38:56 UTC
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Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
I forget who said it, possibly Patton
Attributed to various Soviet Leaders, it seems that it may have
originated in the late 70's early 80's in the US military defense
complex, as a way to boost military budgets.
--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.
The Horny Goat
2020-02-01 01:25:01 UTC
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On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 18:29:18 -0800, ZZyXX
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
I forget who said it, possibly Patton
Both Google and Wikipedia attribute the quote to Stalin which is how I
remember it as something said to FDR and Churchill at Teheran or Yalta
Ned Latham
2020-02-01 04:53:02 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
ZZyXX
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Rich Rostrom
So the idea that the T-34 was a vastly superior tank that
the US or UK should have copied is a myth.
I suspect that the Myth came from the fact that the Germany Army
was surprised by it when it showed up in 41/42, that it was if not a
better, at least an equal to the German Panzers III, So, T-34 >
Panzer III becomes T-34 > all German Tanks, we know how tough the
Panzer 4 et seq were in 1944, ergo T-34s were the best tank.
Umm, not so sure about that.
What the T-34 had was sloped armour and huge numbers.
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
I forget who said it, possibly Patton
Both Google and Wikipedia attribute the quote to Stalin which is how I
remember it as something said to FDR and Churchill at Teheran or Yalta
Its meaning is well known (Napoleon is said to have said "give me the
big battalions"), but that pithy expression of it *has* to have come
from someone whose first language was English. Patton, not Stalin.
Byker
2020-02-03 19:51:13 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by ZZyXX
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
I forget who said it, possibly Patton
Both Google and Wikipedia attribute the quote to Stalin which is how I
remember it as something said to FDR and Churchill at Teheran or Yalta
Can it be traced back prior to 1979?
http://klangable.com/blog/quantity-has-a-quality-all-its-own/
The Horny Goat
2020-02-04 23:15:48 UTC
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Post by Byker
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by ZZyXX
Post by Ned Latham
Post by ZZyXX
quantity has a quality of it's own
LOL. I presume that's not your own original, but it's a goodie.
I forget who said it, possibly Patton
Both Google and Wikipedia attribute the quote to Stalin which is how I
remember it as something said to FDR and Churchill at Teheran or Yalta
Can it be traced back prior to 1979?
http://klangable.com/blog/quantity-has-a-quality-all-its-own/
Given that all the figures cited were WW2 era and that FDR Stalin and
Churchill all died 1945, 1953 and 1965 respectively....

Byker
2020-01-29 20:12:22 UTC
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Speaking of Russian tanks, here's one that I had to see to believe:


Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-29 21:23:02 UTC
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Post by Byker
http://youtu.be/oAHrkK2IzmI
Real world steampunk!!
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
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