Repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Impossible. The USA murder rate dropped significantly between 1990 and
1997 (and it is still below the 1997 value, IIRC). That meant the
pressure was off and besides, there are at least 13 states that would
never agree.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com

SolomonW

2018-02-18 22:33:42 UTC

Post by Robert Woodward
besides, there are at least 13 states that would
never agree.

Does it not require 18 to stop it.

David Tenner

2018-02-18 23:15:33 UTC

Post by Robert Woodward
besides, there are at least 13 states that would
never agree.

Does it not require 18 to stop it.

No. Ratification of a constitutional amendment requires the consent of three-
fourths of the states (i.e., 38).

It takes two-thirds of the states to propose a constitutional convention
(i.e., 33). This is what may have confused you.

Article. V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary,
shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the
Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for
proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents
and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures
of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths
thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the
Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One
thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and
fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State,
without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript#toc-article-v-

--
David Tenner
***@ameritech.net

SolomonW

2018-02-19 00:45:47 UTC

Post by Robert Woodward
besides, there are at least 13 states that would
never agree.

Does it not require 18 to stop it.

No. Ratification of a constitutional amendment requires the consent of three-
fourths of the states (i.e., 38).
It takes two-thirds of the states to propose a constitutional convention
(i.e., 33). This is what may have confused you.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary,
shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the
Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for
proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents
and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures
of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths
thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the
Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One
thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and
fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State,
without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript#toc-article-v-

Thanks for clearing that up.

Which are the states that will definitely vote no?

David Tenner

2018-02-19 02:42:07 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Thanks for clearing that up.
Which are the states that will definitely vote no?

It would be simpler to ask which states could plausibly vote Yes! They would
almost enitrely be in the Northeast and West Coast--and not even all the
states there, indeed not even all the predominantly Democratic ones.. For
example, Vermont is heavily Democratic but--as might be expected for a rural
state--has permissive gun laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont

I think that vitrually all Southern, Rocky Mountain, and Great Plains states
would vote No, as would most if not all of the Great Lakes states. The one
Great Lakes state where one might think it would stand a chance wold be
Illinois--but even there, the legislature, though heavily Democratic,
rejected a ban on "bump stocks."
http://cbsnews.com/news/bump-stocks-ban-illinois-house-votes-against-measure/

One thing to remember is that before *Heller*
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html even most gun control
advocates would not have seen any need for a repeal of the Second Amendment,
since it had not yet been interptreted by the Supreme Court in a manner that
could seriously impact gun control. Even today *Heller* is not really the
main obstacle to gun control--plenty of bils have been proposed and rejected
that would have been found constitutional under *Heller.*

--
David Tenner
***@ameritech.net

David Tenner

2018-02-19 03:15:26 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Thanks for clearing that up.
Which are the states that will definitely vote no?

It would be simpler to ask which states could plausibly vote Yes! They
would almost enitrely be in the Northeast and West Coast--and not even
all the states there, indeed not even all the predominantly Democratic
ones.. For example, Vermont is heavily Democratic but--as might be
expected for a rural state--has permissive gun laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont
I think that vitrually all Southern, Rocky Mountain, and Great Plains
states would vote No, as would most if not all of the Great Lakes
states. The one Great Lakes state where one might think it would stand
a chance wold be Illinois--but even there, the legislature, though
heavily Democratic, rejected a ban on "bump stocks."
http://cbsnews.com/news/bump-stocks-ban-illinois-house-votes-against-meas
ure/
One thing to remember is that before *Heller*
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html even most gun
control advocates would not have seen any need for a repeal of the
Second Amendment, since it had not yet been interptreted by the Supreme
Court in a manner that could seriously impact gun control. Even today
*Heller* is not really the main obstacle to gun control--plenty of bils
have been proposed and rejected that would have been found
constitutional under *Heller.*

In any event,if anti-gun forces were somehow politically strong enough to get
38 states to vote for repeal, surely they would be powerful enough to prevent
or reverse *Heller*--it would just take a change of one vote on the Supreme
Court! And without *Heller* no constitutional amendment would be necesssary.

--
David Tenner
***@ameritech.net

SolomonW

2018-02-19 04:24:56 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Thanks for clearing that up.
Which are the states that will definitely vote no?

It would be simpler to ask which states could plausibly vote Yes! They
would almost enitrely be in the Northeast and West Coast--and not even
all the states there, indeed not even all the predominantly Democratic
ones.. For example, Vermont is heavily Democratic but--as might be
expected for a rural state--has permissive gun laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont
I think that vitrually all Southern, Rocky Mountain, and Great Plains
states would vote No, as would most if not all of the Great Lakes
states. The one Great Lakes state where one might think it would stand
a chance wold be Illinois--but even there, the legislature, though
heavily Democratic, rejected a ban on "bump stocks."
http://cbsnews.com/news/bump-stocks-ban-illinois-house-votes-against-meas
ure/
One thing to remember is that before *Heller*
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html even most gun
control advocates would not have seen any need for a repeal of the
Second Amendment, since it had not yet been interptreted by the Supreme
Court in a manner that could seriously impact gun control. Even today
*Heller* is not really the main obstacle to gun control--plenty of bils
have been proposed and rejected that would have been found
constitutional under *Heller.*

Was this possible to reverse Heller? Is it now?

David Tenner

2018-02-19 07:00:38 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Was this possible to reverse Heller? Is it now?

*Heller* wasa a 5-4 decision, so theoretically if after Scalia's death the
Democrats could fill his vacancy, it could have been overruled. But leaving
aside the fact that the Republicans, as long as they had a majority in the
Senate, were never going to let that happen, probably even some justices who
dissented in *Heller* might be reluctant to overrule it (at least at once)
and prefer to interpret it very narrowly.

But whatever the difficulties of overruling *Heller* they are as nothing
compared to getting 38 states to agree to the repeal of the Second Amendment.

--
David Tenner
***@ameritech.net

SolomonW

2018-02-19 12:46:57 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Was this possible to reverse Heller? Is it now?

*Heller* wasa a 5-4 decision, so theoretically if after Scalia's death the
Democrats could fill his vacancy, it could have been overruled. But leaving
aside the fact that the Republicans, as long as they had a majority in the
Senate, were never going to let that happen, probably even some justices who
dissented in *Heller* might be reluctant to overrule it (at least at once)
and prefer to interpret it very narrowly.
But whatever the difficulties of overruling *Heller* they are as nothing
compared to getting 38 states to agree to the repeal of the Second Amendment.

Thanks for explaining this to me.

SolomonW

2018-02-20 13:12:10 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Was this possible to reverse Heller? Is it now?

*Heller* wasa a 5-4 decision, so theoretically if after Scalia's death the
Democrats could fill his vacancy, it could have been overruled. But leaving
aside the fact that the Republicans, as long as they had a majority in the
Senate, were never going to let that happen, probably even some justices who
dissented in *Heller* might be reluctant to overrule it (at least at once)
and prefer to interpret it very narrowly.
But whatever the difficulties of overruling *Heller* they are as nothing
compared to getting 38 states to agree to the repeal of the Second Amendment.

Many of the areas you mentioned are generally Republican areas, say a
Democrat candidate for president did decide to run on a significant any gun
platform what effect would it make to his campaign? Could he plausibly win?

Insane Ranter

2018-02-20 18:25:54 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Was this possible to reverse Heller? Is it now?

*Heller* wasa a 5-4 decision, so theoretically if after Scalia's death the
Democrats could fill his vacancy, it could have been overruled. But leaving
aside the fact that the Republicans, as long as they had a majority in the
Senate, were never going to let that happen, probably even some justices who
dissented in *Heller* might be reluctant to overrule it (at least at once)
and prefer to interpret it very narrowly.
But whatever the difficulties of overruling *Heller* they are as nothing
compared to getting 38 states to agree to the repeal of the Second Amendment.

In one of the democratic help Congressional districts sure. President maybe not.

pyotr filipivich

2018-02-19 03:00:29 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

SolomonW

2018-02-19 04:25:32 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

That is what I suspect.

pyotr filipivich

2018-02-20 00:37:59 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

That is what I suspect.

That is what I fear.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

Chrysi Cat

2018-02-21 19:08:01 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

You think that would be enough? I think it would take a lost World War
and the Chinese imposing a new constitution (with or without EU input)
on what had been the USA.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Dimensional Traveler

2018-02-21 19:58:45 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

You think that would be enough? I think it would take a lost World War
and the Chinese imposing a new constitution (with or without EU input)
on what had been the USA.

There are significant parts of the American population that are already
opposed to the 2nd Amendment. (Their reasons for that are a different
discussion I don't want to get drawn into.) A civil war or revolution
that replaces the current Constitution would be not that much different
in kind from a foreign occupation. A big difference in degree, yes.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

pyotr filipivich

2018-02-22 02:03:27 UTC

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

You think that would be enough? I think it would take a lost World War
and the Chinese imposing a new constitution (with or without EU input)
on what had been the USA.

Yep.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

pyotr filipivich

2018-02-22 02:03:27 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

A lost civil war, and an end to the Republic as we knew it.

You think that would be enough?

If there is a true civil war (not a war of secession, but an
actual internal military & para-military clash over who fill, and who
will form the government and how will it organized) it is possible for
forces of the "Old Republic" to "lose" that war, and have the new
government formed by those opposed to private ownership.

Post by Chrysi Cat
I think it would take a lost World War
and the Chinese imposing a new constitution (with or without EU input)
on what had been the USA.

Despite all the foreign intervention in the civil wars following
the break up of the Russian Empire, the "Red Russians" were able to
hold their own against the Whites, Green, plus the British, U.S., and
Japanese interventions, and retained most of their territory. Okay,
they lost Poland, the Baltic states, Finland, and some others, but
they were able to regain most of those in the 1940s.
That said, it is possible for a Republic faction to lose as US
Civil war, without much in the way of invasion by other powers. OTOH,
I cannot see anyone seriously enforcing an embargo on _all_ the
factions in such a war. There will be "volunteers". Remember - at
least one faction will have a better claim to be The Legitimate
Government.

--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

jerry kraus

2018-02-19 14:07:13 UTC

Post by SolomonW
Here is a challenge what would it take sometime in the past 20 years to
repeal the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Quite simple, really. Just have a couple of upper middle class white suburban schools get shot up every day for the next few years. So, we might be well on our way there.

Ed Stasiak

2018-02-19 18:54:40 UTC