Zorro in Hell

[Jack Linthicum]

I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro
and Ramona and the idea of a WI where a person who thinks they are
Zorro returns to fight the foreigner who is ruling California is too
juicy for words. It sounds like a bad play, 45 minutes of material
squeezed into a two-hour play. Zorro has been a subject of this
newsgroup in the past, this is an example of what happens to a good
idea taken to its modern end. It fractures the POD to hell, to carry on
the theme.

'Zorro in Hell'

By Charles McNulty, Times Staff Writer

LA JOLLA - La Jolla residents can sleep easier now that Zorro has
landed on their shores. But they probably shouldn't cancel their home
security systems just yet. The swashbuckling icon doesn't have his
usual mojo.

To tell the truth, he seems a little unsure of himself, as though there
were something outdated and maybe a little culturally dubious about his
identity. He has also developed a weird penchant for political shtick,
as though he'd rather be at some comedy club riffing on Dick Cheney's
hunting skills. And did Douglas Fairbanks or any of the other masked
avengers ever make such a big deal about being Latino?


Yes, my friends, Culture Clash has indeed retrieved the old black cape
from Hollywood storage, but not for the usual crusading adventure. In
"Zorro in Hell," the group's still-evolving frolic that opened
Wednesday at the La Jolla Playhouse, the action hero must contend with
a challenge far more daunting than stagecoach robbers. His
self-appointed task is to reclaim California from the hands of another
film legend, the one who frequently drops the phrase "girlie man" in a
bulging Austrian accent and drives around onstage in a mini Hummer
whose license plate reads "Termn8tr."

Sounds like this latest Zorro has a pretty tough fight ahead of him. So
why is he locked down in a psychiatric ward and attended to by a
horror-flick nurse obsessed with suppositories? Scarier still, he has
two Secret Service agents breathing down his neck, one calling him an
"NPR listener," the other threatening him with water-boarding in
Guantanamo.

Culture Clash's radical setup gives way to a drawn-out and increasingly
silly explanation. The man who believes he's Zorro because he keeps
hearing guitar flourishes goes by the nickname Clasher (Richard
Montoya). A writer who won a "multi-culti" grant given to Latinos with
one leg shorter than the other, he was once a normal screenplay-pushing
Angeleno, but life changed as he began researching a new drama about
Zorro at the El Camino Real Inn.

This historic artist colony is presided over by a 200-year-old woman
(played by San Francisco Mime Troupe vet Sharon Lockwood) who has
intimately coaxed masterpieces from nearly every male genius since Karl
Marx. The ancient yet still spry proprietress calls herself "the true
keeper of the sacred Zorro myth and legend" - and has the lunchboxes,
school bags and DVDs to prove it.

She'll need assistance from her staff if she's to inspire Clasher to
pick up the mantle of a figure he considers a gringo fraud. Given the
state of emergency (the Governor's land policies threaten her historic
inn), she'll be forced to call on Don Ringo (Herbert Sigüenza), the
self-proclaimed "first Chicano," and Kyle (Ric Salinas), a therapist
grizzly bear with highbrow philosophical tastes and lowbrow sexual
proclivities that don't deserve recapping.

The ensuing goofiness represents a choppier blend of sketch comedy and
dramatic storytelling than Culture Clash's "Water & Power," the
potboiler of Los Angeles power politics that premiered at the Mark
Taper Forum this summer. The incessant jokiness of "Zorro in Hell"
seems more in keeping with the group's stand-up origins, with every
narrative step requiring a toll of four or five zingers.

The punch lines are delivered with crack timing, and many are quite
daring in their sentiments. In garnering laughs, Culture Clash nobly
refuses to pull punches. Yet stretched out over two acts of harebrained
inanity, the humor can't conceal that 45 minutes of material is being
fluffed to an ungainly two hours.

The production, directed by Berkley Repertory artistic director Tony
Taccone (who mounted the premiere last spring at his theater), moves as
nimbly as it possibly can. There's no dawdling allowed on the stage,
which has been stunningly punctuated with Mexican American artistry by
set designer Christopher Acebo.

Alexander V. Nichols' darkened atmospheric lighting and especially
impressive black-and-white video footage of Zorro outtakes create a
theatrical universe that sometimes seems larger and more self-contained
than the script.

And there's no denying that the trio of performers who make up Culture
Clash know how to seduce an audience with clownish everyman charm.
Their smiling way of insulting President Bush probably could sneak
under the radar of even the staunchest Republican loyalists.

But perhaps it's the massaging nature of the work that takes out some
of the satiric bite. "Zorro in Hell" wants to keep us giggling so we're
never bored or offended. Consequently we're never too agitated either,
which should be the ultimate aim for a self-described piece of
agitprop.

Inspired by the recent immigrant rallies, Culture Clash wants us to
recognize that at a politically imperiled time we must rise up to
become our own Zorros. Good point. No need to administer it with an
endless parade of mind-softening guffaws.

***@latimes.com

[Robert Kolker]

Post by Jack Linthicum
agitprop.
Inspired by the recent immigrant rallies, Culture Clash wants us to
recognize that at a politically imperiled time we must rise up to
become our own Zorros. Good point. No need to administer it with an
endless parade of mind-softening guffaws.

By golly! You took your funny pills before writing this. Smarrrttt as
paint ye be. Arrgghh.

Bob Kolker

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Jack Linthicum
I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro
and Ramona and the idea of a WI where a person who thinks they are
Zorro returns to fight the foreigner who is ruling California is too
juicy for words. It sounds like a bad play, 45 minutes of material
squeezed into a two-hour play. Zorro has been a subject of this
newsgroup in the past, this is an example of what happens to a good
idea taken to its modern end. It fractures the POD to hell, to carry on
the theme.
'Zorro in Hell'
By Charles McNulty, Times Staff Writer

And the movie version has the working title, Z for Zorro, and scripted by the
Wachowski brothers.

[David Tenner]

Post by Jack Linthicum
I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro

One thing I noticed when watching re-runs of the old Disney Zorro TV
series [1] is that (IIRC) the credits did not list a single Hispanic name
among the actors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro_(tv_series) seems to
confirm this. Indeed, judging from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro
there doesn't seem to have been a single Hispanic actor portraying Zorro
until Antonio Banderas.

Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).

[1] A series which led to the defacement of a great many school desks with
carved "Z"'s...

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by David Tenner

Post by Jack Linthicum
I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro

One thing I noticed when watching re-runs of the old Disney Zorro TV
series [1] is that (IIRC) the credits did not list a single Hispanic name
among the actors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro_(tv_series) seems to
confirm this. Indeed, judging from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro
there doesn't seem to have been a single Hispanic actor portraying Zorro
until Antonio Banderas.
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).
[1] A series which led to the defacement of a great many school desks with
carved "Z"'s...
--
David Tenner

Henry Darrow?

Henry Darrow (born Enrique Tomas Delgado, Jr. on September 15, 1933 in
New York City) - is an Emmy Award winning Puerto Rican actor.

Henry is the first latino actor to have portrayed "Zorro" in two
different television series. He also has provided the voice for the
Filmation Studios animated version of "Zorro".

Not wishing to be typecast in Latino roles, actor Henry Thomas Delgado
changed his professional name to Henry Darrow -- only to spend his
first dozen or so years in show business playing Hispanics.

1983, Henry Darrow was starred on the spoofish series Zorro and Son as
Zorro Sr. (aka Don Diego de la Vega), a character he'd previously
played via voice-over on the Saturday morning cartoon weekly The
Tarzan/Lone Ranger/Zorro Adventure Hour (1981); and in 1989, he was
seen as the title character's father on the Family Channel cable series
Zorro.


Note: Darrow's attempt to avoid typecasting didn't work but Martin
Sheen's real name is Estevez so his son took Emilio Estevez and got
lots of "Anglo" parts.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by David Tenner

Post by Jack Linthicum
I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro

One thing I noticed when watching re-runs of the old Disney Zorro TV
series [1] is that (IIRC) the credits did not list a single Hispanic name
among the actors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro_(tv_series) seems to
confirm this. Indeed, judging from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro
there doesn't seem to have been a single Hispanic actor portraying Zorro
until Antonio Banderas.
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).
[1] A series which led to the defacement of a great many school desks with
carved "Z"'s...
--
David Tenner

Henry Darrow?
Henry Darrow (born Enrique Tomas Delgado, Jr. on September 15, 1933 in
New York City) - is an Emmy Award winning Puerto Rican actor.
Henry is the first latino actor to have portrayed "Zorro" in two
different television series. He also has provided the voice for the
Filmation Studios animated version of "Zorro".
Not wishing to be typecast in Latino roles, actor Henry Thomas Delgado
changed his professional name to Henry Darrow -- only to spend his
first dozen or so years in show business playing Hispanics.
1983, Henry Darrow was starred on the spoofish series Zorro and Son as
Zorro Sr. (aka Don Diego de la Vega), a character he'd previously
played via voice-over on the Saturday morning cartoon weekly The
Tarzan/Lone Ranger/Zorro Adventure Hour (1981); and in 1989, he was
seen as the title character's father on the Family Channel cable series
Zorro.
Note: Darrow's attempt to avoid typecasting didn't work but Martin
Sheen's real name is Estevez so his son took Emilio Estevez and got
lots of "Anglo" parts.

Should have read one more ref. Disney used the profits from the Zorro
TV series to build Disneyland.

Disney tested Hugh O'Brian, John Lupton, Jack Kelly, Dennis Weaver and
David Janssen. On April 18, 1957, the Studio held a screen test for a
relatively unknown actor, Guy Williams. When Walt saw the results, he
knew he had found his Zorro.

Guy Williams, whose real name was Armando Catalano, was born on January
14, 1924 in New York.

[David Tenner]

Post by Jack Linthicum
Guy Williams, whose real name was Armando Catalano, was born on January
14, 1924 in New York.

But Williams/Catalano was Italian, not Spanish:

"Born as Armando Catalano at the Fort George area in New York City, he was
the son of Attilio (son of a wealthy timber grower in Messina who purchased a
land in New Jersey), who was working as insurance broker, and Clare Catalano.
His parents, who arrived from Sicily (Italy), were by then living in poverty.
He grew up in the Little Italy, Brooklyn neighborhood. When he was seven, he
began taking fencing lessons from his father, who was a professional in a
tradition inherited from his Italian ancestors."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Williams

OTOH, as you note, Henry Darrow (Enrique Tomas Delgado, Jr.) *was* Hispanic.
Still, someone with an Anglo professional name who played Zorro on a short-
lived spoofish comedy (and as voice-over on a cartoon) was not really what I
had in mind.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by David Tenner

Post by Jack Linthicum
Guy Williams, whose real name was Armando Catalano, was born on January
14, 1924 in New York.

"Born as Armando Catalano at the Fort George area in New York City, he was
the son of Attilio (son of a wealthy timber grower in Messina who purchased a
land in New Jersey), who was working as insurance broker, and Clare Catalano.
His parents, who arrived from Sicily (Italy), were by then living in poverty.
He grew up in the Little Italy, Brooklyn neighborhood. When he was seven, he
began taking fencing lessons from his father, who was a professional in a
tradition inherited from his Italian ancestors."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Williams
OTOH, as you note, Henry Darrow (Enrique Tomas Delgado, Jr.) *was* Hispanic.
Still, someone with an Anglo professional name who played Zorro on a short-
lived spoofish comedy (and as voice-over on a cartoon) was not really what I
had in mind.
--
David Tenner

Do you have any numbers on how many real live Spaniards were living in
Southern California in the era of 1810-1845? That is what I estimate
the Zorro years, some Spanish rule, some Mexican rule and the Mark of
Zorro flows into American rule with Zorro number one as the father.

"1836

The first official census recorded a population of 2,228 in Los Angeles
and its environs, including 603 men, 421 women, 651 children, and 553
Indians. Among the population are "foreigners," including 29 Americans,
4 Englishmen, 3 Portuguese, 2 Africans, and 1each Canadian, Irishman,
Italian, German, Scot, Norwegian, and Curacao native"
http://www.socalhistory.org/Socalhistory.org%20_mainfolder/Chronology/Chronology.htm#1835

That one Italian might be Catalano. The above numbers can explain why I
knew the Spanish and Mexican administration of Southern California were
as dense as they appeared in the Zorro movies. Probably 100 Hispanic
men in all of Southern California with the manners and age of Zorro,
yet they couldn't figure out who he was. Or recognize his horse.

"In the period between 1810 and 1826 when the Spanish colonies in South
America and Mexico were engaged in rebellion against Spain, the
Spanish-speaking population in Alta California probably numbered little
more than 3,000. Two thousand of these were soldiers and their
families, priests, and the people employed at or living near the
missions, while less than 1,000 were residents of pueblos (small towns)
or private ranches."http://elane.stanford.edu/wilson/Text/2d.html

[merccurytravel]

Post by Jack Linthicum
That one Italian might be Catalano. The above numbers can explain why I
knew the Spanish and Mexican administration of Southern California were
as dense as they appeared in the Zorro movies. Probably 100 Hispanic
men in all of Southern California with the manners and age of Zorro,
yet they couldn't figure out who he was. Or recognize his horse.

Or even recognise his voice?

Tony Bailey

[David Johnson]

Post by Jack Linthicum
That one Italian might be Catalano. The above numbers can explain why
I knew the Spanish and Mexican administration of Southern California
were as dense as they appeared in the Zorro movies. Probably 100
Hispanic men in all of Southern California with the manners and age
of Zorro, yet they couldn't figure out who he was. Or recognize his
horse.

Or even recognize his voice?

Zorro, no matter what the form, has always "lived" in a Spanish/Mexican
California that had about twenty times the population* of the real one.
The latest two with Antonio Banderas were...particularly bad about this.

Of course, the 2nd of his Zorro films, "Legend of Zorro" _also_ had
Southern Generals...in Confederate Grey...in 1850 (!) telling how "the
Confederacy would have secede from the United States" (and _called it_
the "Confederacy" too!) and then planned for the big bad guy for the
film to send them nitroglycerine by _train_ from California to the
South.

By train.

Let's just say actual "history" doesn't come anywhere near Zorro...

David

* That's _Spanish speaking_ population, of course. Those
100,000-200,000 "wild" Indians didn't count - obviously...
--
___________________________________________________________
____________
David Johnson home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan

"So many of you come time and time again to watch this final end of
everything which I think is really wonderful and then to return home to
your own eras and raise families and strive for new and better societies
and fight terrible wars for what you know is right, it gives one real
hope for the whole future of lifekind...

...Except of course we know it hasn't got one."

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by David Johnson

Post by Jack Linthicum
That one Italian might be Catalano. The above numbers can explain why
I knew the Spanish and Mexican administration of Southern California
were as dense as they appeared in the Zorro movies. Probably 100
Hispanic men in all of Southern California with the manners and age
of Zorro, yet they couldn't figure out who he was. Or recognize his
horse.

Or even recognize his voice?

Zorro, no matter what the form, has always "lived" in a Spanish/Mexican
California that had about twenty times the population* of the real one.
The latest two with Antonio Banderas were...particularly bad about this.
Of course, the 2nd of his Zorro films, "Legend of Zorro" _also_ had
Southern Generals...in Confederate Grey...in 1850 (!) telling how "the
Confederacy would have secede from the United States" (and _called it_
the "Confederacy" too!) and then planned for the big bad guy for the
film to send them nitroglycerine by _train_ from California to the
South.
By train.
Let's just say actual "history" doesn't come anywhere near Zorro...
David
* That's _Spanish speaking_ population, of course. Those
100,000-200,000 "wild" Indians didn't count - obviously...
--
___________________________________________________________
____________
David Johnson home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan
"So many of you come time and time again to watch this final end of
everything which I think is really wonderful and then to return home to
your own eras and raise families and strive for new and better societies
and fight terrible wars for what you know is right, it gives one real
hope for the whole future of lifekind...
...Except of course we know it hasn't got one."

Given that the Lone Ranger (Clayton Moore) was Zorro in Zorro's Black
Whip and Ghost of Zorro with six guns. In the 1960s we got The Sign of
Z, The Shadow of Z, Z vs. machiste, Z at the Court of Spain, Z and the
3 Musketeers and Z the Avenger. The 1975 film Z was set in Latin
America, the Erotic Adventures of Z (1972) was porno and of course Z
the Gay Blade.

Southern California is filled with people now but in my yute
Capistrano, his original home ground, was a deserted mission with dirty
birds, a place to swivel heads as we headed for the beach.

[Sir Francis Burdett]

Post by David Tenner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Williams

Does anyone else find it odd that a Brooklyn raised Italian-American
would move to Buenos Aires _in 1973_ ?

[David Tenner]

Post by Sir Francis Burdett

Post by David Tenner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Williams

Does anyone else find it odd that a Brooklyn raised Italian-American
would move to Buenos Aires _in 1973_ ?

"When Guy Williams first visited Argentina he was overwhelmed by the show
of affection the Argentines expressed for him and his signature character
- El Zorro. In turn Guy Williams fell in love with the people and culture
of Argentina and the ambiance of Buenos Aires the 'Paris of South
America'. In time, Guy made Buenos Aires his Argentine home."
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/

And yes, it was an odd time:

"Guy's Argentine host smiled and nodded his head yes. Today the crowd at
the airport was exceptionally large. As fate would have it, Guy's arrival
coincided with the arrival of the newly elected Argentine president,
[Peronist] Hector Campora who was returning from Europe. Ezeiza Airport
was alive with activity, filled with ecstatic kids, amused parents and
enthusiastic 'politicos'. For a short time El Zorro even upstaged the
President-elect. As they waved Argentine flags the ‘Peronistas’ warmly
greeted Guy and began to loudly chant, 'Peron and El Zorro--A Single
Heart!' Everyone seemed delighted to have Guy in Argentina."
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/Guyarrives.htm

The Argentines also liked Henry Calvin, "el gran sargento Garcia."
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/GuyandHenry.htm

[Jack Linthicum]

David Tenner wrote:

Yet he died alone and was apparently dead for a week before found.

http://www.billcotter.com/zorro/guy_williams_obit.htm

GUY WILLIAMS - Age 65

Guy Williams was an actor who played the character of Zorro on TV in
the late 1950's. Zorro was a black-masked television hero. Williams
died in Buenos Aires, Argentina, of an apparent heart attack.

Mr. Williams was found by the police on Saturday, April 29, 1989.
The police said that he died approximately one week before that.
<more>

Guy Williams liked to visit Buenos Aires. He was said to have lived
there alone for several months.

[Sir Francis Burdett]

Post by David Tenner
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/Guyarrives.htm
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/GuyandHenry.htm

This is fascinating in its _fanatic_ detail (a sketched blueprint of
Williams' La Recoleta apartment? screencaps from a 70s Argentine talk
show? obsessive much?)

Especially as I had absolutely no idea that Zorro had any cultural
resonance in Argentina.

I have also to possibly only seen the Disney show once or twice

And I have a hard time not thinking "Why is Dr Robinson dressed like a
swashbuckler?"

If is as if William Shatner lands at the Zagreb airport and the
assembled crowd calls out for T.J. Hooker.

[The Horny Goat]

On 8 Oct 2006 08:04:24 -0700, "Sir Francis Burdett"

Post by Sir Francis Burdett
I have also to possibly only seen the Disney show once or twice
And I have a hard time not thinking "Why is Dr Robinson dressed like a
swashbuckler?"
If is as if William Shatner lands at the Zagreb airport and the
assembled crowd calls out for T.J. Hooker.

I was once a student teacher teaching math to a class of grade 9s when
I was asked 'you mean Paul McCartney was in another band before
Wings?' - and realized that the girl in question had to have been born
in 1965-66. I'm pretty sure she was serious - the teacher whose class
it was also choked so I'm certain he thought she was too.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Sir Francis Burdett

Post by David Tenner
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/Guyarrives.htm
http://www.whitefoxdomain.com/GuyandHenry.htm

This is fascinating in its _fanatic_ detail (a sketched blueprint of
Williams' La Recoleta apartment? screencaps from a 70s Argentine talk
show? obsessive much?)
Especially as I had absolutely no idea that Zorro had any cultural
resonance in Argentina.
I have also to possibly only seen the Disney show once or twice
And I have a hard time not thinking "Why is Dr Robinson dressed like a
swashbuckler?"
If is as if William Shatner lands at the Zagreb airport and the
assembled crowd calls out for T.J. Hooker.

Like waiting for Leslie Nielson to go into some mad schtick in
Forbidden Planet or the Tammy movies.

[Stan Boleslawski]

Post by David Tenner

Post by Jack Linthicum
I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro

One thing I noticed when watching re-runs of the old Disney Zorro TV
series [1] is that (IIRC) the credits did not list a single Hispanic name
among the actors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro_(tv_series) seems to
confirm this. Indeed, judging from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro
there doesn't seem to have been a single Hispanic actor portraying Zorro
until Antonio Banderas.

Who is not Latin American.

Post by David Tenner
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).

Given the massive stature of Fairbanks Sr. as the biggest star in
silent
era Hollywood, I can't picture *anyone* else who could have played
the role in a film with a comparable budget at the time. Maybe John
Barrymore, but he wasn't Hispanic.

The 1930s Zorros were Bs ; so it would have been reasonable to have
had Gilbert Roland or the fading Ramon Novarro as Zorro. As for
Roland in the 1940 Mark of Zorro, neither he nor Romero had the
star power of Tyrone Power at the time. If it had been done on a
lower budget, perhaps.

As for the 1950s - no way would Anthony Quinn have worked in
a TV series made by Disney at the time. He was too big of a
star. (Now, perhaps if Disney had decided to make a feature
with the budget of "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" instead
of a TV show.....)

Perhaps Jorge Rivero in one of the 70s versions? He worked
in the US at the time as well as Mexico...

Stan B.

[mike]

Post by Stan Boleslawski
As for the 1950s - no way would Anthony Quinn have worked in
a TV series made by Disney at the time. He was too big of a
star. (Now, perhaps if Disney had decided to make a feature
with the budget of "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" instead
of a TV show.....)

Couldn't Duncan Renaldo jumped from playing the Cisco Kid
to Zorro?

**
mike
**

[Stan Boleslawski]

Post by mike

Post by Stan Boleslawski
As for the 1950s - no way would Anthony Quinn have worked in
a TV series made by Disney at the time. He was too big of a
star. (Now, perhaps if Disney had decided to make a feature
with the budget of "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" instead
of a TV show.....)

Couldn't Duncan Renaldo jumped from playing the Cisco Kid
to Zorro?

Not Latin American, and rather old for the role at the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Renaldo

As others mentioned, Ricardo Montalban is another
possibility - doing a Disney TV series at the time would be
a step down for him, but not as big of a step down as for
Quinn.

Stan B.

[Raymond Speer]

Zorro was the archetypal costumed hero. He had no superpowers (other
than his amazing ability to disguise himself utterly with a domino
mask) but he was amazingly, absurdly proficient in any activity open to
human beings.

Okay, so what the eff was "the fox so cunning and free" doing to fight
oppression? What oppression? Pre-USA California was never depicted as
a police state and Zorro was never a political agitator seeking to
convert the peasentry towards revolution. (Walt Disney would never have
anything that even tasted a little bit "radical.")

What the hell did Zorro do with his days?

Zorro eliminated robber gangs, some of which operated with the tacit
assistance of the authorities.

Zorro was big on last minute escapes for the unjustly convicted. How he
determined that Mr. X was unjustly convicted, I don't know. Just what
the law was that convicted the guy, I also do not know.

According to Zorro, IIRC, the biggest social problem in Old California
was that mean old men were always set to marry young ladies who were in
love with poor but honest Leonardo DeCaprios. About one third of the
time, Zorro convinced the villain of the Error of his Ways, and the
ex-cad consented to the young girl marrying the poor genius. The other
times, matchmaker Zorro got the happy couple off to a good but
unspecified start (where did they go? Nevada? Texas? Sonora? Alaska?)

Noting the "historical" Zorro's long involvement in "marriage
counseling," it stands to reason that a resurrected Zorro will be the
scourge of the culture warriors. Zorro will be out promoting gay
marriage and Bill O'Reilly himself shall conclude that "Zorro Must Again
Die."

[Stan Boleslawski]

Post by Raymond Speer
Zorro was the archetypal costumed hero. He had no superpowers (other
than his amazing ability to disguise himself utterly with a domino
mask) but he was amazingly, absurdly proficient in any activity open to
human beings.

Forgetting about the creations of Dumas and Baroness Orczy, Ray?

Post by Raymond Speer
Okay, so what the eff was "the fox so cunning and free" doing to fight
oppression? What oppression? Pre-USA California was never depicted as
a police state and Zorro was never a political agitator seeking to
convert the peasentry towards revolution. (Walt Disney would never have
anything that even tasted a little bit "radical.")

Correct. And he tended to Disney-ize even the Grimm and Perrault fairy
tales he adopted for his animated films.
Dystopian ObFilm: Disney's "Viva Zapata"

Stan B.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by David Tenner
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).

Ricardo Montalban?

Fairly well known, and very overtly Latin.

One of his early Hollywood roles was Police Lt
Peter Morales in _Mystery Street_ (1950): Morales
being an ethnic-Portuguese officer with the Cape
Code police force.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by David Tenner
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).

Ricardo Montalban?
Fairly well known, and very overtly Latin.
One of his early Hollywood roles was Police Lt
Peter Morales in _Mystery Street_ (1950): Morales
being an ethnic-Portuguese officer with the Cape
Code police force.

This might be one where the obvious choice would find a television role
beneath him.

Ricardo Montalban
(Ricardo Gonzalo Pedro Matalban y Merino)
actor
Born: 11/25/1920
Birthplace: Mexico City, Mexico

A Mexican native with an easygoing manner, dark-eyed intensity, and a
lyrical Spanish accent, Ricardo Montalban first gained fame for his
"Latin lover" roles opposite 1940s and 1950s stars, such as Cyd
Charisse and Esther Williams. Younger audiences know him as Mr. Roarke
from Fantasy Island (1978-84) or as Khan from Star Trek II: The Wrath
of Khan (1982). Despite these seemingly lightweight roles, Montalban
has earned high critical marks for his roles in such films as
Battleground (1949) and Sayonara (1957). He also earned an Emmy Award
for his role as a Sioux chief in the 1976 television miniseries How the
West Was Won. Montalban's unwillingness to succumb to Latin stereotypes
led him to found Nosotros ("Us") in 1973, an organization that
focused on improving the depiction of Hispanic performers in the media.

[Stan Boleslawski]

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by David Tenner
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).

Ricardo Montalban?
Fairly well known, and very overtly Latin.
One of his early Hollywood roles was Police Lt
Peter Morales in _Mystery Street_ (1950): Morales
being an ethnic-Portuguese officer with the Cape
Code police force.

This might be one where the obvious choice would find a television role
beneath him.

Particularly a Disney TV series.

Post by Jack Linthicum
Ricardo Montalban
(Ricardo Gonzalo Pedro Matalban y Merino)
actor
Born: 11/25/1920
Birthplace: Mexico City, Mexico
A Mexican native with an easygoing manner, dark-eyed intensity, and a
lyrical Spanish accent, Ricardo Montalban first gained fame for his
"Latin lover" roles opposite 1940s and 1950s stars, such as Cyd
Charisse and Esther Williams. Younger audiences know him as Mr. Roarke
from Fantasy Island (1978-84) or as Khan from Star Trek II: The Wrath
of Khan (1982).

Or from TOS.
Another possible casting choice of an actor who'd be about the
right age at the time:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0798328/

Don't know if Disney would send his casting directors out to
catch Henry Silva in the Actor's Studio production of Gazzo's
A Hatful of Rain (that play about junkies, while now tame, was
considered strong stuff in the 50s and certainly too strong for
Disney), but he'd be another possibility. He was in enough
westerns in OTL.

Stan B.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 18:01:24 -0000, David Tenner

Post by David Tenner

Post by Jack Linthicum
I can't resist. I grew up in Southern California obsessed with Zorro

One thing I noticed when watching re-runs of the old Disney Zorro TV
series [1] is that (IIRC) the credits did not list a single Hispanic name
among the actors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro_(tv_series) seems to
confirm this. Indeed, judging from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro
there doesn't seem to have been a single Hispanic actor portraying Zorro
until Antonio Banderas.
Could there have been an earlier Hispanic actor playing Zorro (I mean in
an English-language film)? It's not as though there were no Latino actors
in Hollywood (recall the pre-"Joker" Cesar Romero as the Cisco Kid).
[1] A series which led to the defacement of a great many school desks with
carved "Z"'s...

According to http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050079/fullcredits, the cast
of the 1957 TV series were as follows:

Guy Williams .... Don Diego de la Vega / ... (77
episodes) (1957-1959)
Henry Calvin .... Sgt. Demetrio Lopez Garcia (59
episodes) (1957-1959)
Gene Sheldon .... Bernardo (51 episodes) (1957-1959)
George J. Lewis .... Don Alejandro de la Vega (28 episodes)
(1957-1959)
Don Diamond .... Cpl. Reyes / ... (19 episodes)
(1957-1959)
Vinton Haworth .... Magistrando Carlos Galindo (12
episodes) (1958)
Jolene Brand .... Anna Maria Verdugo (9 episodes)
(1958-1959)
Britt Lomond .... Capt. Monastario / ... (8 episodes)
(1957-1958)
Suzanne Lloyd .... Raquel Toledano / ... (7 episodes)
(1958-1961)
Carlos Romero .... Romero Serrano (6 episodes)
(1958-1961)
Charles Korvin .... Jose Sebastian Varga 'The Eagle' (6
episodes) (1958)
Eduard Franz .... Gregorio Verdugo (5 episodes) (1958)
Jay Novello .... Juan Greco (5 episodes) (1958)
Rodolfo Hoyos Jr. .... Chulito / ... (4 episodes)
(1958-1960)

Richard Anderson .... Ricardo del Amo (4 episodes)
(1958-1959)

Barbara Luna .... Theresa, the Tamale Peddler (4
episodes) (1958)
Peter Adams .... Capitan Arturo Toledano (4 episodes)
(1958)
Perry Lopez .... Joaquin Castenada (4 episodes) (1958)
Kent Taylor .... Carlos Murietta (4 episodes) (1958)
Michael Pate .... Salvador Quintana (4 episodes) (1958)
Ric Roman .... Capitan Briones (4 episodes) (1958)
Ken Lynch .... Pablo (4 episodes) (1958)
Frank Wilcox .... Luis Rico (4 episodes) (1958)
Myrna Fahey .... Maria Crespo / ... (4 episodes) (1958)

Annette Funicello .... Anita Cabrillo / ... (4
episodes) (1959-1961)
George N. Neise .... Capitan Felipe Arrellanos (4 episodes)
(1959)
Douglas Kennedy .... Manuel (4 episodes) (1959)
Joan Evans .... Leonar (4 episodes) (1959)

Cesar Romero .... Esteban de la Cruz (4 episodes) (1959)

Robert J. Wilke .... Capitan Mendoza (4 episodes) (1959)
Edgar Barrier .... Don Cornelio Esperon (4 episodes)
(1959)
Patricia Medina .... Margarita Cotazar (4 episodes) (1959)
Everett Sloane .... Andres Felipe Basilio (4 episodes)
(1959)
Gloria Talbott .... Moneta (4 episodes) (1959)
Jan Arvan .... Ignacio Torres (3 episodes) (1957)
Romney Brent .... Padre Felipe (3 episodes) (1957)
Tony Russo .... Carlos Martinez / ... (3 episodes)
(1957-1959)
Than Wyenn .... Licencindo Pina (3 episodes)
(1957-1958)
Madeleine Holmes .... Dona Luisa Torres (3 episodes)
(1957)
Rodolfo Acosta .... Carancho / ... (3 episodes)
(1958-1960)
John Litel .... The Governor (3 episodes) (1958-1959)
Peter Mamakos .... Enrique Fuentes (3 episodes) (1958)
Wolfe Barzell .... Innkeeper (3 episodes) (1958)

Jack Elam .... Gomez / ... (3 episodes) (1958)

Mary Wickes .... Dolores Bastinado (3 episodes) (1958)
Anthony Caruso .... Don Juan Ortega (3 episodes) (1958)

Jonathan Harris .... Don Carlos Fernandez (3 episodes)
(1959)
Lloyd Corrigan .... Sancho (3 episodes) (1959)
Howard Wendell .... Don Marcos (3 episodes) (1959)
Carlos Rivas .... Ruiz (3 episodes) (1959)
Paul Richards .... Hernando (3 episodes) (1959)
Arthur Space .... Gonzales / ... (3 episodes) (1959)
Jean Willes .... Carlotta (3 episodes) (1959)
Wendell Holmes .... Storekeeper (3 episodes) (1959)
Jeff York .... Joe Crane (3 episodes) (1959)
Pilar Fuentes .... Elvera Corona (2 episodes) (1957)
Pat Hogan .... Benito (2 episodes) (1957)
Henry Rowland .... Count Kolinko (2 episodes) (1958)
Joseph Conway .... Francisco Palomares (2 episodes)
(1958)
George Keymas .... Roberto (2 episodes) (1958)
Henry Wills .... Castro / ... (2 episodes) (1958)
Jack Kruschen .... Jose Mordante (2 episodes) (1958)
Anthony George .... Peralta (2 episodes) (1958)
Armand Alzamora .... Figueroa (2 episodes) (1958)
Sandy Livingston .... Rosalita Cortez (2 episodes)
(1958)
Paul Picerni .... Pietro Murietta (2 episodes) (1958)
Joan Shawlee .... Barmaid (2 episodes) (1958)
Mark Damon .... Eugenio / ... (2 episodes) (1959-1961)
Greigh Phillips .... Jose (2 episodes) (1959)
Penny Stanton .... Crescencia (2 episodes) (1959)

Rita Moreno .... Chulita (2 episodes) (1960)
Vito Scotti .... Chaco (2 episodes) (1960)
Bern Hoffman .... Trampa (2 episodes) (1960)
Gilbert Roland .... El Cuchillo (2 episodes) (1960)

which suggests there's a few Hispanic names in there but precious few.
Just enough to deny your recollection that there were none at all. (No
I do NOT count Annette Funicello or Rita Moreno or Cesar Romero as
Hispanic or Latino! <grin>) Admittedly these were all occasional
players and not the core cast.

imdb.com notes other Zorro productions besides the Disney TV show
including a Hindi version (!) which strains my imagination somewhat!

I confess I do not remember too many of these Disney dramatic series
though I do recall that my favorite was the Scarecrow of Romney Marsh.
I only saw the Zorro series in re-run as my parents did not consider
it appropriate for pre-schoolers in its first run (which is what I was
in the very late 50s).

[Rich Rostrom]

I do NOT count Annette Funicello or Rita Moreno...

IMDB sez:

Rita Moreno

Date of birth (location)
11 December 1931
Humacao, Puerto Rico

or Cesar Romero...

IMDB sez:

Cesar Romero was born of Cuban parents in New York
City in February 1907...

as Hispanic or Latino! <grin>

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 18:14:00 -0500, Rich Rostrom

Post by The Horny Goat

I do NOT count Annette Funicello or Rita Moreno...

Rita Moreno
Date of birth (location)
11 December 1931
Humacao, Puerto Rico

or Cesar Romero...

Cesar Romero was born of Cuban parents in New York
City in February 1907...

as Hispanic or Latino! <grin>

Mea culpa then - without checking I 'knew' them to be Italian rather
than Hispanic.

Once again one should check these things before 'knowing' them...at
least I got 1 out of 3...mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. (As my priest
would say if that's the worst you do all day it's a pretty good
day...)

[Kevrob]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 18:14:00 -0500, Rich Rostrom

Post by The Horny Goat

I do NOT count Annette Funicello or Rita Moreno...

Rita Moreno
Date of birth (location)
11 December 1931
Humacao, Puerto Rico

or Cesar Romero...

Cesar Romero was born of Cuban parents in New York
City in February 1907...

as Hispanic or Latino! <grin>

Mea culpa then - without checking I 'knew' them to be Italian rather
than Hispanic.
Once again one should check these things before 'knowing' them...at
least I got 1 out of 3...mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. (As my priest
would say if that's the worst you do all day it's a pretty good
day...)

An "Hispanic" Zorro would be in an ATL, as the real world inspiration
for the legend was an expatriate Irishman turned Californio, William
Lamport a/k/a "Guillen Lombardo". See:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/sib/sib6.html

Martin Sheen could have been an ethnically correct Zorro, with his
Irish Mom and Spanish Dad. He doesn't seem to have buckled any swashes
on screen, though. He's not from the right era to have played the part
for Disney, unless the studio did a mid-60s remake.

Kevin

[Stan Boleslawski]

Post by Kevrob
Martin Sheen could have been an ethnically correct Zorro, with his
Irish Mom and Spanish Dad. He doesn't seem to have buckled any swashes
on screen, though. He's not from the right era to have played the part
for Disney, unless the studio did a mid-60s remake.

He could have played Zorro in the 70s version rather than
Alain Delon, although that wasn't made by Disney.

Stan B.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by The Horny Goat

I do NOT count Annette Funicello or Rita Moreno...

Rita Moreno
Date of birth (location)
11 December 1931
Humacao, Puerto Rico

or Cesar Romero...

Cesar Romero was born of Cuban parents in New York
City in February 1907...

as Hispanic or Latino! <grin>

--
| He had a shorter, more scraggly, and even less |
| flattering beard than Yassir Arafat, and Escalante |
| never conceived that such a thing was possible. |
| -- William Goldman, _Heat_ |

Pedro Armendariz doesn't make The Conqueror and commit suicide

http://cinemexicano.mty.itesm.mx/estrellas/armendariz.html

[merccurytravel]

Michael Pate .... Salvador Quintana (4 episodes) (1958)

That must have made a change from playing Apache/Navajo etc.
I suspect Michael would have been better off staying in Australia and taking
up local TV-

OK - so what roles for a stay at home Michael Pate? Certainly leading
convict in some of the very wooden early ABC Australian dramas? A suit and
hat as a demon in Homicide? Eventually one of the older males in The
Sullivans? Senior army officers in a number of series?

Tony Bailey