"Ephemeral States of the Russian Civil War"

[David Tenner]

See the map at Loading Image...

Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

I have discussed the Gilan Soviet Republic here before:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/6FRU0P5l1oA/0mfFRm_6zJ4J

I have also indicated why I don't think the Basmachis ever had much of a
chance of success:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/k5RP4O6hpaA/9u63dQuBAAAJ

Of course, referring to the Free Territory as a "state" would have been
considered a counterrevolutionary slander by Makhno...

And there were some states which proved ephemeral enough, but are not on this
map: Litbel, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litbel

[Alex Milman]

Post by David Tenner
See the map at https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40257187974_a5e318d549_o.png
Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

Probably you'll need to try to formulate an objective criteria for such a survival. Personally, I could not figure it out for any of these cases.

Anyway, IIRC, Far East Republic was a fake which existed in 1920 - 22 as a (soviet vassal) buffer state between the RSFSR and the territories occupied by Japan during the Russian Civil War.

Makhno did not have a chance even if due to a pure geography and Don Republic was not much better off (especially keeping in mind that its government was in a subservient situation relative to the Volunteer Army).

With the Basmach "state" and various entities on Caucasus, the numbers were too much against them.

Post by David Tenner
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/6FRU0P5l1oA/0mfFRm_6zJ4J
I have also indicated why I don't think the Basmachis ever had much of a
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/k5RP4O6hpaA/9u63dQuBAAAJ
Of course, referring to the Free Territory as a "state" would have been
considered a counterrevolutionary slander by Makhno...
And there were some states which proved ephemeral enough, but are not on this
map: Litbel, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litbel
--
David Tenner

[David Tenner]

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
See the map at
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40257187974_a5e318d549_o.png
Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

Probably you'll need to try to formulate an objective criteria for such
a survival. Personally, I could not figure it out for any of these
cases.
Anyway, IIRC, Far East Republic was a fake which existed in 1920 - 22 as
a (soviet vassal) buffer state between the RSFSR and the territories
occupied by Japan during the Russian Civil War.
Makhno did not have a chance even if due to a pure geography and Don
Republic was not much better off (especially keeping in mind that its
government was in a subservient situation relative to the Volunteer
Army).
With the Basmach "state" and various entities on Caucasus, the numbers
were too much against them.

Well, some of those states might have survived if Germany won the war. The
Baltic Duchy, obviously. And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

[Alex Milman]

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
See the map at
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40257187974_a5e318d549_o.png
Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

Probably you'll need to try to formulate an objective criteria for such
a survival. Personally, I could not figure it out for any of these
cases.
Anyway, IIRC, Far East Republic was a fake which existed in 1920 - 22 as
a (soviet vassal) buffer state between the RSFSR and the territories
occupied by Japan during the Russian Civil War.
Makhno did not have a chance even if due to a pure geography and Don
Republic was not much better off (especially keeping in mind that its
government was in a subservient situation relative to the Volunteer
Army).
With the Basmach "state" and various entities on Caucasus, the numbers
were too much against them.

Well, some of those states might have survived if Germany won the war. The
Baltic Duchy, obviously.

He Hetmanate most probably, at least for a while because issue of the Ukrainian nationalism would not go away.

Post by David Tenner
And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

1st Don State had been headed by Ataman Kaledin who committed a suicide after being defeated by the Reds. A revived Don State very soon became a formality being under control of the Volunteer Army. Why would the Germans support it?

[David Tenner]

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

1st Don State had been headed by Ataman Kaledin who committed a suicide
after being defeated by the Reds. A revived Don State very soon became a
formality being under control of the Volunteer Army. Why would the
Germans support it?

Well, as I said, I am assuming that the victorious Germans install Krasnov as
their puppet ruler of the Don state. Krasnov did not share the pro-Entente
orientation of the other Whites.

Indeed, in OTL the Germans supported a typically grandiose plan of Krasnov's:

"Ataman Krasnov enthusiastically advocated bringing all Cossacks together.
The Ataman saw in unity a way to extend his influence beyond the boundaries
of his native Don. As was his wont, he developed ambitious and unrealistic
plans. He wanted to build a Cossack state with the participation of the Don,
Kuban, Terek, and Astrakhan voiska along with Dagestan and the mountain
tribes of the Northern Caucasus. In his correspondence with his German
mentors he implied that such a state already existed. The Germans approved of
the idea, because in the short run they wanted to expand the influence of the
pro-German Krasnov, and in the long run they hoped that a Cossack state would
be a step toward a radical dismemberment of Russia. However, all the area
with the exception of parts of the Don and Kuban were under Bolshevik rule.
The plans developed no further than some noncommital conversations in June
and July 1918 with Kubaan delegates. The Kuban Cossacks did not like
Krasnov's pro-German orientation and knew of Deni kin's bitter opposition to
Krasnov's plans. Krasnov's idea remained an ephemeral scheme without
practical significance." Peter Kenez, *Civil War in South Russia, 1919-1920:
The Defeat of the Whites, Volume 2,* pp. 128-9
https://books.google.com/books?id=vREGB60UPWMC&pg=PA128

Propping up puppet rulers like Skoropadski (in Ukraine) and Krasnov (in a
Cossack state, whether limited to the Don or not) would no doubt be a burden
on the Germans, but they might think it worth the price to keep Russia as
weak as possible.

[WolfBear]

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

1st Don State had been headed by Ataman Kaledin who committed a suicide
after being defeated by the Reds. A revived Don State very soon became a
formality being under control of the Volunteer Army. Why would the
Germans support it?

Well, as I said, I am assuming that the victorious Germans install Krasnov as
their puppet ruler of the Don state. Krasnov did not share the pro-Entente
orientation of the other Whites.
"Ataman Krasnov enthusiastically advocated bringing all Cossacks together.
The Ataman saw in unity a way to extend his influence beyond the boundaries
of his native Don. As was his wont, he developed ambitious and unrealistic
plans. He wanted to build a Cossack state with the participation of the Don,
Kuban, Terek, and Astrakhan voiska along with Dagestan and the mountain
tribes of the Northern Caucasus. In his correspondence with his German
mentors he implied that such a state already existed. The Germans approved of
the idea, because in the short run they wanted to expand the influence of the
pro-German Krasnov, and in the long run they hoped that a Cossack state would
be a step toward a radical dismemberment of Russia. However, all the area
with the exception of parts of the Don and Kuban were under Bolshevik rule.
The plans developed no further than some noncommital conversations in June
and July 1918 with Kubaan delegates. The Kuban Cossacks did not like
Krasnov's pro-German orientation and knew of Deni kin's bitter opposition to
Krasnov's plans. Krasnov's idea remained an ephemeral scheme without
The Defeat of the Whites, Volume 2,* pp. 128-9
https://books.google.com/books?id=vREGB60UPWMC&pg=PA128
Propping up puppet rulers like Skoropadski (in Ukraine) and Krasnov (in a
Cossack state, whether limited to the Don or not) would no doubt be a burden
on the Germans, but they might think it worth the price to keep Russia as
weak as possible.
--
David Tenner

If the Germans were smart about this, they'd help promote economic development in their Eastern European puppet states in order to build up local support for these puppet rulers and thus to allow Germany to better harness the local manpower of these countries. (After all, Ukraine had something like half of Germany's total population. That's a lot of manpower.)

That said, though, I would not have expected a victorious Imperial Germany to have been that smart.

[Alex Milman]

Post by WolfBear

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

1st Don State had been headed by Ataman Kaledin who committed a suicide
after being defeated by the Reds. A revived Don State very soon became a
formality being under control of the Volunteer Army. Why would the
Germans support it?

Well, as I said, I am assuming that the victorious Germans install Krasnov as
their puppet ruler of the Don state. Krasnov did not share the pro-Entente
orientation of the other Whites.
"Ataman Krasnov enthusiastically advocated bringing all Cossacks together.
The Ataman saw in unity a way to extend his influence beyond the boundaries
of his native Don. As was his wont, he developed ambitious and unrealistic
plans. He wanted to build a Cossack state with the participation of the Don,
Kuban, Terek, and Astrakhan voiska along with Dagestan and the mountain
tribes of the Northern Caucasus. In his correspondence with his German
mentors he implied that such a state already existed. The Germans approved of
the idea, because in the short run they wanted to expand the influence of the
pro-German Krasnov, and in the long run they hoped that a Cossack state would
be a step toward a radical dismemberment of Russia. However, all the area
with the exception of parts of the Don and Kuban were under Bolshevik rule.
The plans developed no further than some noncommital conversations in June
and July 1918 with Kubaan delegates. The Kuban Cossacks did not like
Krasnov's pro-German orientation and knew of Deni kin's bitter opposition to
Krasnov's plans. Krasnov's idea remained an ephemeral scheme without
The Defeat of the Whites, Volume 2,* pp. 128-9
https://books.google.com/books?id=vREGB60UPWMC&pg=PA128
Propping up puppet rulers like Skoropadski (in Ukraine) and Krasnov (in a
Cossack state, whether limited to the Don or not) would no doubt be a burden
on the Germans, but they might think it worth the price to keep Russia as
weak as possible.
--
David Tenner

If the Germans were smart about this, they'd help promote economic development in their Eastern European puppet states in order to build up local support for these puppet rulers and thus to allow Germany to better harness the local manpower of these countries. (After all, Ukraine had something like half of Germany's total population. That's a lot of manpower.)
That said, though, I would not have expected a victorious Imperial Germany to have been that smart.

Quite realistic expectation: the main idea behind having a satellite state of Ukraine was confiscation of the resources needed to feed Germany. Add to this German attempts to maintain law and order (by supporting the estate owners and punishing local peasantry for looting) and you have an explanation why the Germans would not be popular there. "Economic development" is an abstraction with a little meaning in this framework. What exactly would they "promote" and how?

[WolfBear]

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

1st Don State had been headed by Ataman Kaledin who committed a suicide
after being defeated by the Reds. A revived Don State very soon became a
formality being under control of the Volunteer Army. Why would the
Germans support it?

Well, as I said, I am assuming that the victorious Germans install Krasnov as
their puppet ruler of the Don state. Krasnov did not share the pro-Entente
orientation of the other Whites.
"Ataman Krasnov enthusiastically advocated bringing all Cossacks together.
The Ataman saw in unity a way to extend his influence beyond the boundaries
of his native Don. As was his wont, he developed ambitious and unrealistic
plans. He wanted to build a Cossack state with the participation of the Don,
Kuban, Terek, and Astrakhan voiska along with Dagestan and the mountain
tribes of the Northern Caucasus. In his correspondence with his German
mentors he implied that such a state already existed. The Germans approved of
the idea, because in the short run they wanted to expand the influence of the
pro-German Krasnov, and in the long run they hoped that a Cossack state would
be a step toward a radical dismemberment of Russia. However, all the area
with the exception of parts of the Don and Kuban were under Bolshevik rule.
The plans developed no further than some noncommital conversations in June
and July 1918 with Kubaan delegates. The Kuban Cossacks did not like
Krasnov's pro-German orientation and knew of Deni kin's bitter opposition to
Krasnov's plans. Krasnov's idea remained an ephemeral scheme without
The Defeat of the Whites, Volume 2,* pp. 128-9
https://books.google.com/books?id=vREGB60UPWMC&pg=PA128
Propping up puppet rulers like Skoropadski (in Ukraine) and Krasnov (in a
Cossack state, whether limited to the Don or not) would no doubt be a burden
on the Germans, but they might think it worth the price to keep Russia as
weak as possible.
--
David Tenner

If the Germans were smart about this, they'd help promote economic development in their Eastern European puppet states in order to build up local support for these puppet rulers and thus to allow Germany to better harness the local manpower of these countries. (After all, Ukraine had something like half of Germany's total population. That's a lot of manpower.)
That said, though, I would not have expected a victorious Imperial Germany to have been that smart.

Quite realistic expectation: the main idea behind having a satellite state of Ukraine was confiscation of the resources needed to feed Germany. Add to this German attempts to maintain law and order (by supporting the estate owners and punishing local peasantry for looting) and you have an explanation why the Germans would not be popular there. "Economic development" is an abstraction with a little meaning in this framework. What exactly would they "promote" and how?

Well, what exactly did the U.S. do in the Marshall Plan after the end of World War II?

I mean, the U.S.'s approach to rebuilding Western Europe worked out very well, don't you think?

[Alex Milman]

Post by WolfBear

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...

1st Don State had been headed by Ataman Kaledin who committed a suicide
after being defeated by the Reds. A revived Don State very soon became a
formality being under control of the Volunteer Army. Why would the
Germans support it?

Well, as I said, I am assuming that the victorious Germans install Krasnov as
their puppet ruler of the Don state. Krasnov did not share the pro-Entente
orientation of the other Whites.
"Ataman Krasnov enthusiastically advocated bringing all Cossacks together.
The Ataman saw in unity a way to extend his influence beyond the boundaries
of his native Don. As was his wont, he developed ambitious and unrealistic
plans. He wanted to build a Cossack state with the participation of the Don,
Kuban, Terek, and Astrakhan voiska along with Dagestan and the mountain
tribes of the Northern Caucasus. In his correspondence with his German
mentors he implied that such a state already existed. The Germans approved of
the idea, because in the short run they wanted to expand the influence of the
pro-German Krasnov, and in the long run they hoped that a Cossack state would
be a step toward a radical dismemberment of Russia. However, all the area
with the exception of parts of the Don and Kuban were under Bolshevik rule.
The plans developed no further than some noncommital conversations in June
and July 1918 with Kubaan delegates. The Kuban Cossacks did not like
Krasnov's pro-German orientation and knew of Deni kin's bitter opposition to
Krasnov's plans. Krasnov's idea remained an ephemeral scheme without
The Defeat of the Whites, Volume 2,* pp. 128-9
https://books.google.com/books?id=vREGB60UPWMC&pg=PA128
Propping up puppet rulers like Skoropadski (in Ukraine) and Krasnov (in a
Cossack state, whether limited to the Don or not) would no doubt be a burden
on the Germans, but they might think it worth the price to keep Russia as
weak as possible.
--
David Tenner

If the Germans were smart about this, they'd help promote economic development in their Eastern European puppet states in order to build up local support for these puppet rulers and thus to allow Germany to better harness the local manpower of these countries. (After all, Ukraine had something like half of Germany's total population. That's a lot of manpower.)
That said, though, I would not have expected a victorious Imperial Germany to have been that smart.

Quite realistic expectation: the main idea behind having a satellite state of Ukraine was confiscation of the resources needed to feed Germany. Add to this German attempts to maintain law and order (by supporting the estate owners and punishing local peasantry for looting) and you have an explanation why the Germans would not be popular there. "Economic development" is an abstraction with a little meaning in this framework. What exactly would they "promote" and how?

Well, what exactly did the U.S. do in the Marshall Plan after the end of World War II?

Rather irrelevant anachronism and, anyway, the US and Imperial Germany are distinctively different states on more than one account.

Post by WolfBear
I mean, the U.S.'s approach to rebuilding Western Europe worked out very well, don't you think?

Unfortunately, this knowledge was not available in 1918 so what exactly I think is not relevant.

[WolfBear]

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
See the map at
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40257187974_a5e318d549_o.png
Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

Probably you'll need to try to formulate an objective criteria for such
a survival. Personally, I could not figure it out for any of these
cases.
Anyway, IIRC, Far East Republic was a fake which existed in 1920 - 22 as
a (soviet vassal) buffer state between the RSFSR and the territories
occupied by Japan during the Russian Civil War.
Makhno did not have a chance even if due to a pure geography and Don
Republic was not much better off (especially keeping in mind that its
government was in a subservient situation relative to the Volunteer
Army).
With the Basmach "state" and various entities on Caucasus, the numbers
were too much against them.

Well, some of those states might have survived if Germany won the war. The
Baltic Duchy, obviously. And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...
--
David Tenner

You know, I've been curious about this--if Russia remains hostile to Germany (as is likely--unless Germany manages to convert all of Russia into a German satellite state), wouldn't it be a good strategic move on Germany's part to encourage ethnic Germans in Russia to flee to the United Baltic Duchy?

I mean, there would be a lot of room for them in Baltic cities (the Baltics are sparsely populated and their cities can always expand) and the Germans could get the Baltic Barons to donate some of their land to these ethnic Germans if they will want to settle in the Baltic countryside.

Plus, if Germany was really smart about this, it could encourage ethnic Jews to also settle in the United Baltic Duchy and try Germanizing them. After all, from a strategic perspective, significantly reducing the ethnic Latvian and ethnic Estonian percentage in the United Baltic Duchy would be a very good thing.

[Alex Milman]

Post by WolfBear

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
See the map at
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40257187974_a5e318d549_o.png
Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

Probably you'll need to try to formulate an objective criteria for such
a survival. Personally, I could not figure it out for any of these
cases.
Anyway, IIRC, Far East Republic was a fake which existed in 1920 - 22 as
a (soviet vassal) buffer state between the RSFSR and the territories
occupied by Japan during the Russian Civil War.
Makhno did not have a chance even if due to a pure geography and Don
Republic was not much better off (especially keeping in mind that its
government was in a subservient situation relative to the Volunteer
Army).
With the Basmach "state" and various entities on Caucasus, the numbers
were too much against them.

Well, some of those states might have survived if Germany won the war. The
Baltic Duchy, obviously. And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...
--
David Tenner

You know, I've been curious about this--if Russia remains hostile to Germany (as is likely--unless Germany manages to convert all of Russia into a German satellite state), wouldn't it be a good strategic move on Germany's part to encourage ethnic Germans in Russia to flee to the United Baltic Duchy?

Flee from where?

Post by WolfBear
I mean, there would be a lot of room for them in Baltic cities

The Germans of Volga had been mostly in agriculture so what exactly would they be doing in the cities?

Post by WolfBear
(the Baltics are sparsely populated

Because the land is not very good and can't support much more people.

Post by WolfBear
and their cities can always expand)

... by adding the agricultural workers?

The cities at that time were usually expanding when there was a growing industry but which industry would be growing in this scenario and at which expense?

Post by WolfBear
and the Germans could get the Baltic Barons to donate some of their land to these ethnic Germans

Sure. They could also force all of them to compose a poetry or to start using Latin as main language.

Why would Imperial Germany force the GERMAN landowners to do anything of the kind? AFAIK, it was not exactly a socialist state. Not to mention that the workforce in these estates were predominantly the natives who in your schema are thrown out and left without any means for existence. Or that to accommodate these settlers you should provide a financing for their move, accommodations, agricultural appliances, cattle, etc.
And you'd need to feed them for at least the next year.

Post by WolfBear
if they will want to settle in the Baltic countryside.

To be killed by the angry displaced locals...

Post by WolfBear
Plus, if Germany was really smart about this, it could encourage ethnic Jews to also settle in the United Baltic Duchy and try Germanizing them.

Even "better".

[WolfBear]

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear

Post by David Tenner

Post by Alex Milman

Post by David Tenner
See the map at
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40257187974_a5e318d549_o.png
Question: which, if any, of these states, might have survived?

Probably you'll need to try to formulate an objective criteria for such
a survival. Personally, I could not figure it out for any of these
cases.
Anyway, IIRC, Far East Republic was a fake which existed in 1920 - 22 as
a (soviet vassal) buffer state between the RSFSR and the territories
occupied by Japan during the Russian Civil War.
Makhno did not have a chance even if due to a pure geography and Don
Republic was not much better off (especially keeping in mind that its
government was in a subservient situation relative to the Volunteer
Army).
With the Basmach "state" and various entities on Caucasus, the numbers
were too much against them.

Well, some of those states might have survived if Germany won the war. The
Baltic Duchy, obviously. And they might have supported a Don Cossack state
headed by Ataman Krasnov...
--
David Tenner

You know, I've been curious about this--if Russia remains hostile to Germany (as is likely--unless Germany manages to convert all of Russia into a German satellite state), wouldn't it be a good strategic move on Germany's part to encourage ethnic Germans in Russia to flee to the United Baltic Duchy?

Flee from where?

From rump Russia (the Volga region and whatever other territories they lived in that remained a part of Russia), of course.

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
I mean, there would be a lot of room for them in Baltic cities

The Germans of Volga had been mostly in agriculture so what exactly would they be doing in the cities?

The key word here is "mostly." The small percentage of them who were urban could settle in the cities.

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
(the Baltics are sparsely populated

Because the land is not very good and can't support much more people.

Sweden has almost two times more people than the Baltic states have combined right now, though.

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
and their cities can always expand)

... by adding the agricultural workers?

No. Rather, by adding the children and grandchildren of these agricultural workers if they will decide to move to the cities. After all, a lot of people moved to the cities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (for instance, in the U.S.).

Post by Alex Milman
The cities at that time were usually expanding when there was a growing industry but which industry would be growing in this scenario and at which expense?

Well, what were the notable industries in the Baltic cities during this time?

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
and the Germans could get the Baltic Barons to donate some of their land to these ethnic Germans

The Baltic Barons actually *did* agree to do this, though:

https://books.google.com/books?id=y37zY9UpOD8C&pg=PA208&dq=baltic+barons+colonization+1918&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4Wc75TaAhVlImMKHW3aAa0Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=baltic%20barons%20colonization%201918&f=false

Post by Alex Milman
Sure. They could also force all of them to compose a poetry or to start using Latin as main language.

See the link above.

A greater percentage of ethnic Germans in the Baltic states would mean a greater German counterweight to Baltic nationalism.

Post by Alex Milman
Why would Imperial Germany force the GERMAN landowners to do anything of the kind? AFAIK, it was not exactly a socialist state.

No need to force; after all, as my link above shows, they appeared to have been quite willing to voluntarily do this.

Post by Alex Milman
Not to mention that the workforce in these estates were predominantly the natives who in your schema are thrown out and left without any means for existence.

Isn't there enough farmland in the Baltic states to allow the native Baltic workers to remain on this land, though?

Or that to accommodate these settlers you should provide a financing for their move, accommodations, agricultural appliances, cattle, etc.

Post by Alex Milman
And you'd need to feed them for at least the next year.

Yep. Indeed, I suppose that some of this money could come from reparations from Russia.

Of course, it is worth noting that there would have only been a million or so ethnic Germans in rump Russia. For a country of 65 million people (such as Germany), resettling a million people shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
if they will want to settle in the Baltic countryside.

To be killed by the angry displaced locals...

No one said anything about displacing locals, though.

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
Plus, if Germany was really smart about this, it could encourage ethnic Jews to also settle in the United Baltic Duchy and try Germanizing them.

Even "better".

Why the quotes?

Also, for what it's worth, if the Baltic states are not good enough destinations for them to settle, the ethnic Germans from rump Russia could settle in Ukraine instead. Indeed, the farmland is much better there.

[Alex Milman]

[]

Post by WolfBear
https://books.google.com/books?id=y37zY9UpOD8C&pg=PA208&dq=baltic+barons+colonization+1918&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4Wc75TaAhVlImMKHW3aAa0Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=baltic%20barons%20colonization%201918&f=false

They agreed only in Kurland (as per your link).

[]

Post by WolfBear
Isn't there enough farmland in the Baltic states to allow the native Baltic workers to remain on this land, though?

Nope. And "workers" are not the same as the "farmers": they are just hired hands. So, if you are cutting the estates, there is a lesser need of the workers and these workers can't became farmers because they have no land and no money to buy whatever is necessary for independent farmer.

Post by WolfBear
Or that to accommodate these settlers you should provide a financing for their move, accommodations, agricultural appliances, cattle, etc.

Post by Alex Milman
And you'd need to feed them for at least the next year.

Yep. Indeed, I suppose that some of this money could come from reparations from Russia.

There would be a long list of those waiting for these money and your settlers would be at its bottom.

Post by WolfBear
Of course, it is worth noting that there would have only been a million or so ethnic Germans in rump Russia.

So why bother? In OTL it was an issue of the Germans from Germany going to the Baltic territories. This at least had some practical sense.

[]

Post by WolfBear

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
if they will want to settle in the Baltic countryside.

To be killed by the angry displaced locals...

No one said anything about displacing locals, though.

But it is obvious. Well, obviously not to you because if it was you would not repeatedly try this idea of yours.

Post by WolfBear

Post by Alex Milman

Post by WolfBear
Plus, if Germany was really smart about this, it could encourage ethnic Jews to also settle in the United Baltic Duchy and try Germanizing them.

Even "better".

Why the quotes?

Because it is an irony.

Post by WolfBear
Also, for what it's worth, if the Baltic states are not good enough destinations for them to settle, the ethnic Germans from rump Russia could settle in Ukraine instead. Indeed, the farmland is much better there.

Yep. And the natives are really "friendly". Especially to those who are trying to settle on their land (which is, indeed, much better than in Latvia).

In OTL, even without your program, the German occupation forces had a lot of entertainment with the natives and if, besides food confiscations, you start taking the land from them, there would be a real fun for everyone.