Other cases of an ethnic group massively changing its place of residence

[WolfBear]

Over the last 200 years, (ethnic) Jews have experienced a massive change in their place of residence. Specifically, very few Jews lived in either Palestine/Israel (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) or the U.S. 200 years ago. However, right now, about 85% of the global Jewish population lives in either Israel (including Israeli settlements in the West Bank) or the United States of America.

Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its place of residence? If so, which ethnic group(s) are you thinking of here and what would be the change in the place(s) of residence? (Also, please don't invoke genocide as a means of achieving this AH challenge. Indeed, I certainly don't want crimes against humanity to fulfill this AH change.)

Anyway, what exactly are your thoughts on this?

Also, for the record, a subgroup within an ethnic group wouldn't count for this. Rather, it has to be the entire ethnic group. Thus, the massive movement of Russian Germans from the ex-USSR to Germany wouldn't work for this because most ethnic Germans were and remain in Germany. Indeed, I want the overwhelming majority of the population of an entire ethnic group to move to a different country/countries for this AH challenge.

Any thoughts on this?

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by WolfBear
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last
200 years which would cause another ethnic group to
experience such a massive change in its place of
residence? If so, which ethnic group(s) are you
thinking of here and what would be the change in the
place(s) of residence? (Also, please don't invoke
genocide as a means of achieving this AH challenge.
Indeed, I certainly don't want crimes against
humanity to fulfill this AH change.)

The displacement of world Jewry was in large part achieved
by the extermination of Jews in eastern/middle Europe.

It seems unlikely that any ethnic group would cease to
occupy its traditional homeland if not either forced out
or murdered if they stay.

[WolfBear]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by WolfBear
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last
200 years which would cause another ethnic group to
experience such a massive change in its place of
residence? If so, which ethnic group(s) are you
thinking of here and what would be the change in the
place(s) of residence? (Also, please don't invoke
genocide as a means of achieving this AH challenge.
Indeed, I certainly don't want crimes against
humanity to fulfill this AH change.)

The displacement of world Jewry was in large part achieved
by the extermination of Jews in eastern/middle Europe.
It seems unlikely that any ethnic group would cease to
occupy its traditional homeland if not either forced out
or murdered if they stay.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Your point about the Holocaust is certainly very valid, Rich. However, please keep in mind that a lot of Soviet Jews (over 2 million) survived the Holocaust and yet most of them emigrated later on.

Even before the Holocaust, millions of Jews had immigrated to the Western Hemisphere (with much smaller numbers immigrating to South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand). Indeed, if Eastern Europe remains or--in the case of the Soviet Union--becomes hostile to the Jews (as in, even without the Holocaust), and if immigration policies in the U.S. and Palestine are still eventually liberalized, I could certainly see much more Eastern European Jews immigrating either to the U.S. or Palestine. Plus, if Israel is still created without the Holocaust (which, for the record, is an open question), this could motivate most Jews in the Muslim world to immigrate to Israel as a result of the increased anti-Semitism there.

[David Tenner]

Post by WolfBear
Over the last 200 years, (ethnic) Jews have experienced a massive change
in their place of residence. Specifically, very few Jews lived in either
Palestine/Israel (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) or the U.S. 200
years ago. However, right now, about 85% of the global Jewish population
lives in either Israel (including Israeli settlements in the West Bank)
or the United States of America.
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would
cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its
place of residence?

I was thinking of the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to
the North and West--but it turns out that even after it had run its course in
1970, about 53 percent of African Americans lived in the South (nothing like
the 90% of 1900, though).

[Rob]

Post by David Tenner

Post by WolfBear
Over the last 200 years, (ethnic) Jews have experienced a massive change
in their place of residence. Specifically, very few Jews lived in either
Palestine/Israel (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) or the U.S. 200
years ago. However, right now, about 85% of the global Jewish population
lives in either Israel (including Israeli settlements in the West Bank)
or the United States of America.
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would
cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its
place of residence?

I was thinking of the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to
the North and West--but it turns out that even after it had run its course in
1970, about 53 percent of African Americans lived in the South (nothing like
the 90% of 1900, though).
--
David Tenner

There's the Roma.

Maybe it has happened with small old world religious minority populations (who usually have a unique dialect) like Parsees, Bahai's, Mennonites, Amish and Moravian Brethren.

It will happen to any island peoples whose homelands fall below sea level.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 09:05:28 -0800 (PST), Rob

Post by Rob

Post by David Tenner

Post by WolfBear
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would
cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its
place of residence?

I was thinking of the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to
the North and West--but it turns out that even after it had run its course in
1970, about 53 percent of African Americans lived in the South (nothing like
the 90% of 1900, though).
--
David Tenner

There's the Roma.
Maybe it has happened with small old world religious minority populations (who usually have a unique dialect) like Parsees, Bahai's, Mennonites, Amish and Moravian Brethren.
It will happen to any island peoples whose homelands fall below sea level.

You are presumably talking areas with significant coastal populations.
The two countries best known for having significant populations below
sea level now (for different reasons) are the Netherlands and Israel.

A 5 metre rise in sea levels would challenge the Dutch but they could
likely deal with it. A 5 metre rise would flood parts of Tel Aviv but
hardly bother the Israelis otherwise.

The real victims would be those living on flood plains close to the
sea which describes various islanders and most importantly on the
Indian subcontinent especially Bangladesh.

There are well over 50 million people on the Bangladeshi floodplains -
all the island states combined don't come close to that.

[Rob]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 09:05:28 -0800 (PST), Rob

Post by Rob

Post by David Tenner

Post by WolfBear
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would
cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its
place of residence?

I was thinking of the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to
the North and West--but it turns out that even after it had run its course in
1970, about 53 percent of African Americans lived in the South (nothing like
the 90% of 1900, though).
--
David Tenner

There's the Roma.
Maybe it has happened with small old world religious minority populations (who usually have a unique dialect) like Parsees, Bahai's, Mennonites, Amish and Moravian Brethren.
It will happen to any island peoples whose homelands fall below sea level.

You are presumably talking areas with significant coastal populations.
The two countries best known for having significant populations below
sea level now (for different reasons) are the Netherlands and Israel.
A 5 metre rise in sea levels would challenge the Dutch but they could
likely deal with it. A 5 metre rise would flood parts of Tel Aviv but
hardly bother the Israelis otherwise.
The real victims would be those living on flood plains close to the
sea which describes various islanders and most importantly on the
Indian subcontinent especially Bangladesh.
There are well over 50 million people on the Bangladeshi floodplains -
all the island states combined don't come close to that.

Well sure people from floodplains will have to move than people from islands, I was not trying to make it a "competitive" thing. But people who live in a sinking island by definition will have to move further than people on continents.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:43:59 -0800 (PST), Rob

Post by Rob
Well sure people from floodplains will have to move than people from islands, I was not trying to make it a "competitive" thing. But people who live in a sinking island by definition will have to move further than people on continents.

That wasn't my point.

My point was that there are FAR more Bangladeshis and those living on
floodplains than those who live on 'sinking islands'.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by The Horny Goat
You are presumably talking areas with significant coastal populations.
The two countries best known for having significant populations below
sea level now (for different reasons) are the Netherlands and Israel.

The country with the largest population living
below sea level is probably Azerbaijan; its
capital city, Baku, and the adjacent countryside,
are all in the Caspian Depression.

Russia also has significant population in the
Depression, which extends up the Volga to
Volgograd.

As to Israel - yes, much of populated Galilee
is below sea level. But most of the below-sea-
level Jordan Valley lies in Jordan, or in
Palestine (that is, the "West Bank", which is
under Israeli military occupation, but which
Israel has not accessed).

There are also large populations in California's
Imperial Valley, and in the Fayyum Depression of
Egypt (a region lying just west of the Nile; part
of the Nile branches off, flows parallel to the
Nlle, then out into the desert to water the Fayyum
area.)

[WolfBear]

Post by David Tenner

Post by WolfBear
Over the last 200 years, (ethnic) Jews have experienced a massive change
in their place of residence. Specifically, very few Jews lived in either
Palestine/Israel (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) or the U.S. 200
years ago. However, right now, about 85% of the global Jewish population
lives in either Israel (including Israeli settlements in the West Bank)
or the United States of America.
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would
cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its
place of residence?

I was thinking of the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to
the North and West--but it turns out that even after it had run its course in
1970, about 53 percent of African Americans lived in the South (nothing like
the 90% of 1900, though).
--
David Tenner

Without World War II, though, wouldn't the Civil Rights Movement in the U.S. be delayed? In turn, in a no-World War II scenario, wouldn't we see the Great Migration continue for at least another couple of decades?

In such a scenario, a large part of African-Americans would still live in the Southern U.S.; however, a majority of them would live outside of the Southern U.S.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by WolfBear
Without World War II, though, wouldn't the Civil
Rights Movement in the U.S. be delayed?

I doubt it. When it's railroad time, people railroad.
The pressure within the Democrats to flip on the issue
predated the war.

Post by WolfBear
In turn, in a no-World War II scenario, wouldn't we
see the Great Migration continue for at least
another couple of decades?

ISTM that one of the major effects of the Migration
(which started in the 1910s) was to establish blacks
outside the South as a political force. - with
obvious leverage to overcome Dixiecrat obstruction
in Congress.

[WolfBear]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by WolfBear
Without World War II, though, wouldn't the Civil
Rights Movement in the U.S. be delayed?

I doubt it. When it's railroad time, people railroad.
The pressure within the Democrats to flip on the issue
predated the war.

Please keep in mind, though, that the Cold War accelerated the push for racial equality in the U.S. After all, the U.S. didn't exactly have a moral high ground in regards to criticizing Soviet oppression if a large part of the U.S. own Black population remained oppressed. Plus, the U.S.'s image in the Third World suffered as a result of the Jim Crow system in the Southern U.S.

If there is no World War II, there is no Cold War.

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by WolfBear
In turn, in a no-World War II scenario, wouldn't we
see the Great Migration continue for at least
another couple of decades?

ISTM that one of the major effects of the Migration
(which started in the 1910s) was to establish blacks
outside the South as a political force. - with
obvious leverage to overcome Dixiecrat obstruction
in Congress.

Sure, the Great Migration produced some African-American congressmen in the Northern U.S. However, the overwhelming majority of congressmen in the Northern U.S. remained White. Indeed, without mass support from Whites in the North and West, the African-American lobby in the North couldn't accomplish very much politically.

Post by Rich Rostrom
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

[Rich Rostrom]

Post by WolfBear
Sure, the Great Migration produced some
African-American congressmen in the Northern U.S.
However, the overwhelming majority of congressmen in
the Northern U.S. remained White. Indeed, without
mass support from Whites in the North and West, the
African-American lobby in the North couldn't
accomplish very much politically.

It wasn't the handful of black Representatives that
worked the change; it was the fact that blacks now
formed a significant share of the voting population
in many non-Southern cities - 10% to 20%. The
Democrats in these areas had to respect black
concerns to win them away from the Republicans.
IOW, northern Democrats had to choose between
continuing to carry water for the Dixiecrats,
which a lot of them already resented, or appealing
to a substantial voter bloc in their own areas.

[WolfBear]

Post by Rich Rostrom

Post by WolfBear
Sure, the Great Migration produced some
African-American congressmen in the Northern U.S.
However, the overwhelming majority of congressmen in
the Northern U.S. remained White. Indeed, without
mass support from Whites in the North and West, the
African-American lobby in the North couldn't
accomplish very much politically.

It wasn't the handful of black Representatives that
worked the change; it was the fact that blacks now
formed a significant share of the voting population
in many non-Southern cities - 10% to 20%. The
Democrats in these areas had to respect black
concerns to win them away from the Republicans.
IOW, northern Democrats had to choose between
continuing to carry water for the Dixiecrats,
which a lot of them already resented, or appealing
to a substantial voter bloc in their own areas.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Excellent point!

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by WolfBear
Over the last 200 years, (ethnic) Jews have experienced a massive change in their place of residence. Specifically, very few Jews lived in either Palestine/Israel (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) or the U.S. 200 years ago. However, right now, about 85% of the global Jewish population lives in either Israel (including Israeli settlements in the West Bank) or the United States of America.
Can you come up with a realistic PoD over the last 200 years which would cause another ethnic group to experience such a massive change in its place of residence? If so, which ethnic group(s) are you thinking of here and what would be the change in the place(s) of residence? (Also, please don't invoke genocide as a means of achieving this AH challenge. Indeed, I certainly don't want crimes against humanity to fulfill this AH change.)
Anyway, what exactly are your thoughts on this?
Also, for the record, a subgroup within an ethnic group wouldn't count for this. Rather, it has to be the entire ethnic group. Thus, the massive movement of Russian Germans from the ex-USSR to Germany wouldn't work for this because most ethnic Germans were and remain in Germany. Indeed, I want the overwhelming majority of the population of an entire ethnic group to move to a different country/countries for this AH challenge.
Any thoughts on this?

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