Brandy In the Roman Empire & Middle Ages

[m***@willamette.edu]

Brady was one of those accidental inventions that really could have
come earlier or later depending upon the fickle hand of
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

Effects? Brandy is cheaper to ship (alcohol wise- anyways) than wine,
so I assume an increase in trade.

Any big effects on the late Roman Empire and assuming no big changes to
history, the Middle Ages (Yea, I'm assuming it doesn't get lost with
the fall).

_-
Mike Ralls

[Tim McDaniel]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[BernardZ]

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Any big effects on the late Roman Empire and assuming no big changes to
history, the Middle Ages (Yea, I'm assuming it doesn't get lost with
the fall).

Well the Romans could have a good trade selling it to the barbarians.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by BernardZ

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Any big effects on the late Roman Empire and assuming no big changes to
history, the Middle Ages (Yea, I'm assuming it doesn't get lost with
the fall).

Well the Romans could have a good trade selling it to the barbarians.

Firewater not good for barbarians.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Brady was one of those accidental inventions that really could have
come earlier or later depending upon the fickle hand of
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.
Effects? Brandy is cheaper to ship (alcohol wise- anyways) than wine,
so I assume an increase in trade.
Any big effects on the late Roman Empire and assuming no big changes to
history, the Middle Ages (Yea, I'm assuming it doesn't get lost with
the fall).
_-
Mike Ralls

Something to contemplate, the so-called decline of the Roman Empire is
said to be partially based on their use of lead (plumbium) for their
water supply pipes. WI they used lead, instead of copper, for the
cooling coils of the distillation process?

[mike]

Jack Linthicum wrote:
Something to contemplate, the so-called decline of the Roman Empire is

Post by Jack Linthicum
said to be partially based on their use of lead (plumbium) for their
water supply pipes.

Pewter Tankards and Mugs didn't make idiots of Englishmen
drinking much stronger Spirits that were more likely to leach
lead oxides from, And Romans didn't drink much Water from the Tap
in any case.

Using 'Sugar of Lead' Lead Acetate as a flavoring was probably a
bigger problems than pipes, which would get coated with
calcium from water hardness in time, sealing the pipe.

Post by Jack Linthicum
WI they used lead, instead of copper, for the
cooling coils of the distillation process?

For the same reason they don't OTL, hard to draw thinwall
pipe from lead and have it retain its shape

**
mike
**

[Matt Giwer]

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Brady was one of those accidental inventions that really could have
come earlier or later depending upon the fickle hand of
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.
Effects? Brandy is cheaper to ship (alcohol wise- anyways) than wine,
so I assume an increase in trade.
Any big effects on the late Roman Empire and assuming no big changes to
history, the Middle Ages (Yea, I'm assuming it doesn't get lost with
the fall).

Yes but ... It means distilled spirits are immediately available. The beer drinkers create their
own. No special preservation is required.

The main use of wine was to mix with water to make safe to drink. As gin was the scourge of the
poor in London when it arrived the poor of Rome would suffer the same fate but those not succombing
would have safe water to drink at all times. (London didn't catch on to the safe water use.) So all
the water born diseases disappear from the Roman and barbarian world as even the poor can afford
distilled spirits.

An interesting idea really. When distilled spirits did appear there was no idea of using it to make
drinking water safe. But if it had appeared in Roman times it would have been used to make water
safe to drink. When something happens gives different effects. (Never forget every one of those
great Romans we remember was always a little drunk all the time.)

So we have a population explosion after the natural alcoholics are weeded out and Rome would not
campaign to save them nor think of the idea of demon rum. Egypt the breadbasket of the empire has to
be forced to save grain for food instead of glutting the "gin" market. Of course they would likely
have used something other than juniper berries to cover the taste of cheap alcohol. (You have to
throw out the first and last 10% to avoid bad tastes. The less you throw out the more profitable
hence masking the taste.)

There was a great premium on land with good water. That premium lessens. Wealth increases. Cities
can be built (or grow to cities) in places where the water is not that good. Distillation and all
that goes with it becomes a strategic technology.

Copper becomes more expensive but sheet copper production is developed. Eventually this leads to
making coils and whatever improves alcohol production. It is another essential technology and with
luck leads to some additional advances in civilization. If stills get cheap enough then production
has to be taxes.

We get this image of a chariot driver running interference for man with an ox cart full of untaxed
alcohol calling himself Banditus.

Distilled wine and beer. The engines of civilization.

[Athos]

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Brady was one of those accidental inventions that really could have
come earlier or later depending upon the fickle hand of
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.
Effects? Brandy is cheaper to ship (alcohol wise- anyways) than wine,
so I assume an increase in trade.
Any big effects on the late Roman Empire and assuming no big changes to
history, the Middle Ages (Yea, I'm assuming it doesn't get lost with
the fall).
_-
Mike Ralls

First, I believe it was the Arabs who isolated/discovered alcohol as
something that was in the wine. At least that's what I was always told
was the reason the the word "alcohol" has a Arab root.

But assuming that the Romans learn about alcohol and discover the idea
of distilling, it could lead to the much discussed "Roman Industrial
Revolution". The first work with calculating and measuring the energy
in steam was done by a Scottish distiller.

Would the Romans eventually try to distill spirits on an industrial
scale and if so could it lead to some theoretical work on the
properties of steam and energy?

[VGer47]

For one thing, Martin Padway would have to find another way to earn his
first money. ;)

[s***@yahoo.com]

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Brady was one of those accidental inventions that really could have
come earlier or later depending upon the fickle hand of
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

? Mike, are you sure about this?

Modern distillation seems to have been an Arab invention, spreading to
Europe in medieval times. By the 15th century, Europeans had
enthusiastically applied it to a variety of substances, producing the
first brandies, whiskies and vodkas.

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.

Metallurgy is a problem, but not a show-stopper... the Romans weren't
as advanced as the later Arabs, never mind medieval Europeans, but they
could produce a decent alembic and, given time to noodle, a copper
coil.


Doug M.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Brady was one of those accidental inventions that really could have
come earlier or later depending upon the fickle hand of
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

? Mike, are you sure about this?
Modern distillation seems to have been an Arab invention, spreading to
Europe in medieval times. By the 15th century, Europeans had
enthusiastically applied it to a variety of substances, producing the
first brandies, whiskies and vodkas.

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.
Metallurgy is a problem, but not a show-stopper... the Romans weren't
as advanced as the later Arabs, never mind medieval Europeans, but they
could produce a decent alembic and, given time to noodle, a copper
coil.
Doug M.

I think if you could TM back and actually witness some of the miracles
related in the Arabian Nights, a certain large religious book, and
others you would find that someone had the 'secret' fairly early and
kept it as a mystic emenation from the gods to astound the yokels. Some
of the 'fire from nothing' events could be brandy soaked sand or
sawdust.

[mike]

Post by s***@yahoo.com
Modern distillation seems to have been an Arab invention, spreading to
Europe in medieval times. By the 15th century, Europeans had
enthusiastically applied it to a variety of substances, producing the
first brandies, whiskies and vodkas.

And Brandy has more to do with sitting in Oak Barrels for a number
of years, along with Whiskey, that doing a straight run moonshine.

With Romans storing fluids in clay Amphora, it wouldn't
'age' properly had they let it sit around, even had they figured out
distilling.

Post by s***@yahoo.com
It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.

Romans boiled the Grape Juice to make syrups and sweeteners in lead
coated copper vats, so they were nearly there, heating a Mash that
way

**
mike
**

[m***@willamette.edu]

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

? Mike, are you sure about this?

No, not really.

I was reading about Brandy drinking in Wisconsin here:

http://www.onmilwaukee.com/bars/articles/brandy.html

and it said, "whose Web site reports that brandy was accidentally
invented during the 16th century by Dutch traders who found they could
ship more wine by removing (distilling) the water from the wine first."

But Googling around shows that this is in error, so I take back my
statement re the Dutch.

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.
Metallurgy is a problem, but not a show-stopper... the Romans weren't
as advanced as the later Arabs, never mind medieval Europeans, but they
could produce a decent alembic and, given time to noodle, a copper
coil.

On the whole, I would say that increased trade due to Brandy would
increase the power and wealth of the merchants as a class, but not
enough to radically change anything. Anyone disagree?

--
Mike Ralls

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by m***@willamette.edu

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

? Mike, are you sure about this?

No, not really.
http://www.onmilwaukee.com/bars/articles/brandy.html
and it said, "whose Web site reports that brandy was accidentally
invented during the 16th century by Dutch traders who found they could
ship more wine by removing (distilling) the water from the wine first."
But Googling around shows that this is in error, so I take back my
statement re the Dutch.

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.
Metallurgy is a problem, but not a show-stopper... the Romans weren't
as advanced as the later Arabs, never mind medieval Europeans, but they
could produce a decent alembic and, given time to noodle, a copper
coil.

On the whole, I would say that increased trade due to Brandy would
increase the power and wealth of the merchants as a class, but not
enough to radically change anything. Anyone disagree?
--
Mike Ralls

I wonder if any time one of the slaves or even the 'master' looked at
the beads on the slightly cooler lid of that copper pot and tasted one?
If a flat surface allowed the 'essence' to collect while heated might
some substitute for the lid be devised or in stock to collect more of
this stuff? Moonshine is moonshine and every country short of the
Eskimos has a local product. I was reminded of okolehau, the Hawaiian
stuff made from Ti roots, lilies.

[Jack Linthicum]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by m***@willamette.edu

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

? Mike, are you sure about this?

No, not really.
http://www.onmilwaukee.com/bars/articles/brandy.html
and it said, "whose Web site reports that brandy was accidentally
invented during the 16th century by Dutch traders who found they could
ship more wine by removing (distilling) the water from the wine first."
But Googling around shows that this is in error, so I take back my
statement re the Dutch.

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.
Metallurgy is a problem, but not a show-stopper... the Romans weren't
as advanced as the later Arabs, never mind medieval Europeans, but they
could produce a decent alembic and, given time to noodle, a copper
coil.

On the whole, I would say that increased trade due to Brandy would
increase the power and wealth of the merchants as a class, but not
enough to radically change anything. Anyone disagree?
--
Mike Ralls

I wonder if any time one of the slaves or even the 'master' looked at
the beads on the slightly cooler lid of that copper pot and tasted one?
If a flat surface allowed the 'essence' to collect while heated might
some substitute for the lid be devised or in stock to collect more of
this stuff? Moonshine is moonshine and every country short of the
Eskimos has a local product. I was reminded of okolehau, the Hawaiian
stuff made from Ti roots, lilies.

I got informed of a book The Forgotten Revolution by Lucio Russo, how
science was born in 300BC and why it had to be reborn.
Paging through it I hit upon a quote from Seneca who says wine struck
by lightning becomes solid and stays that way for exactly three days,
after which time it kills or maddens anyone who drinks it. Seneca,
Naturales quaestiones, II, xxxi ss 1 + liii ss1.
Wondering if Seneca's use of 'solid' is a precursor to the hipsters
talk of the 30s and 40s or some Roman jive we haven't figured out. The
rest sounds pretty much like what happens when moonshine is left to age
of three days and you drink it straight up.
The book has some wonderful bases for WIs, including the massacre of
all the Greeks in Alexandria by Ptolemy VIII (Euergetes II) in 145-44
BC and the subsequent diaspora of the city's intellectuals; Athenaeus
Deipnosophistae IV, 184b-c and Valerius Maximus.

I had looked up "distillation" in the index and found nothing but have
now come upon a section on chemistry where Zosimus of Panopolis, like
most writers after the 2nd C BC a compiler not an originator, mentions
a 1st C AD chemist Mary the Jewess, Sister of Moses. She apparently
wrote under the pseudonym Mary the Prophetess, sister of Moses. To her
is attributed stills and sublimation chambers, all with Greek names.

Russo's thesis is that the science of the 3rd-2nd C BC got 'simplified'
(dumbed down in today's phrase) to the point of being mystical and
accepted. No experimentation, though his Hellenistic scientists did
experiment, and rules reduced to what a copyist could remember between
reading and writing. Even Heron is suggested as a collector of 'Popular
Science' rather than an actual engineer or mechanic. An example of the
dumbing down is the reduction of Eratosthenes and Hipparchus degree of
latitude as 700 stadia by Ptolomy and Marinus to 500 stadia, a belief
accepted by Columbus.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by m***@willamette.edu

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
stumble-across-it-impericism. It was the Dutch traders in the 16th
century of OTL who discovered that they could ship more wine by
removing (distilling) the water from the wine first.

? Mike, are you sure about this?

No, not really.
http://www.onmilwaukee.com/bars/articles/brandy.html
and it said, "whose Web site reports that brandy was accidentally
invented during the 16th century by Dutch traders who found they could
ship more wine by removing (distilling) the water from the wine first."
But Googling around shows that this is in error, so I take back my
statement re the Dutch.

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by m***@willamette.edu
Now there was plenty of wine trade during the late Roman Empire, so
lets have some lucky duck discover the same feat and have Brandy start
more than a millenia ahead of time.

It's plausible. The Classical world seems to have been vaguely aware
that heated wine gave off vapors; there's evidence that the Babylonians
may have collected it, perhaps for ceremonial or medicinal purposes.
Metallurgy is a problem, but not a show-stopper... the Romans weren't
as advanced as the later Arabs, never mind medieval Europeans, but they
could produce a decent alembic and, given time to noodle, a copper
coil.

On the whole, I would say that increased trade due to Brandy would
increase the power and wealth of the merchants as a class, but not
enough to radically change anything. Anyone disagree?
--
Mike Ralls

I wonder if any time one of the slaves or even the 'master' looked at
the beads on the slightly cooler lid of that copper pot and tasted one?
If a flat surface allowed the 'essence' to collect while heated might
some substitute for the lid be devised or in stock to collect more of
this stuff? Moonshine is moonshine and every country short of the
Eskimos has a local product. I was reminded of okolehau, the Hawaiian
stuff made from Ti roots, lilies.

I got informed of a book The Forgotten Revolution by Lucio Russo, how
science was born in 300BC and why it had to be reborn.
Paging through it I hit upon a quote from Seneca who says wine struck
by lightning becomes solid and stays that way for exactly three days,
after which time it kills or maddens anyone who drinks it. Seneca,
Naturales quaestiones, II, xxxi ss 1 + liii ss1.
Wondering if Seneca's use of 'solid' is a precursor to the hipsters
talk of the 30s and 40s or some Roman jive we haven't figured out. The
rest sounds pretty much like what happens when moonshine is left to age
of three days and you drink it straight up.
The book has some wonderful bases for WIs, including the massacre of
all the Greeks in Alexandria by Ptolemy VIII (Euergetes II) in 145-44
BC and the subsequent diaspora of the city's intellectuals; Athenaeus
Deipnosophistae IV, 184b-c and Valerius Maximus.

I had looked up "distillation" in the index and found nothing but have
now come upon a section on chemistry where Zosimus of Panopolis, like
most writers after the 2nd C BC a compiler not an originator, mentions
a 1st C AD chemist Mary the Jewess, Sister of Moses. She apparently
wrote under the pseudonym Mary the Prophetess, sister of Moses. To her
is attributed stills and sublimation chambers, all with Greek names.
Russo's thesis is that the science of the 3rd-2nd C BC got 'simplified'
(dumbed down in today's phrase) to the point of being mystical and
accepted. No experimentation, though his Hellenistic scientists did
experiment, and rules reduced to what a copyist could remember between
reading and writing. Even Heron is suggested as a collector of 'Popular
Science' rather than an actual engineer or mechanic. An example of the
dumbing down is the reduction of Eratosthenes and Hipparchus degree of
latitude as 700 stadia by Ptolomy and Marinus to 500 stadia, a belief
accepted by Columbus.

This sounds like distillation to me

http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/maryprof.htm
Mary said, Keep the fume and take care that none of it fly away. And
let your measure be with a gentle fire such as is the Measure of the
heat of the Sun in the Month of June or July, and stay by your Vessel
and behold it with care how it grows black, grows red, and grows white
in less than three hours of the day, and the fume will penetrate the
body, and the Spirit will be bound up, and they will be like milk,
incerating, and liquefying and penetrating: and that is the secret.
Aros said I do not say that this will be allways.