Discussion:
WI: Italian Colonization of South America via Robert Thornton, and Ferdinand I of Tuscany
(too old to reply)
jerry kraus
2018-04-03 18:36:47 UTC
Permalink
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)

British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
Rob
2018-04-03 23:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
If Tuscany keeps it, it ends up belonging to Italy if/when unification comes. It becomes a plantation colony, I assume, as I think it was in the Guyanas.

I don't the whole string of wars Tuscany was involved in between 1608 and 1860, but if they avoid repeated wars with Britain or Portugal, they should stand a good chance of keeping it, provided they can make it swing in terms of economic management.

If kept through the 19th century, there could be a transition, somewhat like what happened in Cuba and some of the southern cone areas where southern Italians start moving there in greater bulk and become a larger share of a population that I would assume would majority black and ex-slave speaking a pidgin Italian up through the mid-19th century.
jerry kraus
2018-04-04 13:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
If Tuscany keeps it, it ends up belonging to Italy if/when unification comes. It becomes a plantation colony, I assume, as I think it was in the Guyanas.
I don't the whole string of wars Tuscany was involved in between 1608 and 1860, but if they avoid repeated wars with Britain or Portugal, they should stand a good chance of keeping it, provided they can make it swing in terms of economic management.
If kept through the 19th century, there could be a transition, somewhat like what happened in Cuba and some of the southern cone areas where southern Italians start moving there in greater bulk and become a larger share of a population that I would assume would majority black and ex-slave speaking a pidgin Italian up through the mid-19th century.
Actually, Rob, I was thinking on a rather grand scale, as usual. Could extensive colonization of the Americas forestall Italy's decline, and foster Italian unification? Could Italy remain a great world power under these circumstances, and how does that change the course of world events, overall?
Dean
2018-04-04 13:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Rob
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
If Tuscany keeps it, it ends up belonging to Italy if/when unification comes. It becomes a plantation colony, I assume, as I think it was in the Guyanas.
I don't the whole string of wars Tuscany was involved in between 1608 and 1860, but if they avoid repeated wars with Britain or Portugal, they should stand a good chance of keeping it, provided they can make it swing in terms of economic management.
If kept through the 19th century, there could be a transition, somewhat like what happened in Cuba and some of the southern cone areas where southern Italians start moving there in greater bulk and become a larger share of a population that I would assume would majority black and ex-slave speaking a pidgin Italian up through the mid-19th century.
Actually, Rob, I was thinking on a rather grand scale, as usual. Could extensive colonization of the Americas forestall Italy's decline, and foster Italian unification? Could Italy remain a great world power under these circumstances, and how does that change the course of world events, overall?
It's debatable if Italy ever was a world power.
jerry kraus
2018-04-04 13:55:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Rob
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
If Tuscany keeps it, it ends up belonging to Italy if/when unification comes. It becomes a plantation colony, I assume, as I think it was in the Guyanas.
I don't the whole string of wars Tuscany was involved in between 1608 and 1860, but if they avoid repeated wars with Britain or Portugal, they should stand a good chance of keeping it, provided they can make it swing in terms of economic management.
If kept through the 19th century, there could be a transition, somewhat like what happened in Cuba and some of the southern cone areas where southern Italians start moving there in greater bulk and become a larger share of a population that I would assume would majority black and ex-slave speaking a pidgin Italian up through the mid-19th century.
Actually, Rob, I was thinking on a rather grand scale, as usual. Could extensive colonization of the Americas forestall Italy's decline, and foster Italian unification? Could Italy remain a great world power under these circumstances, and how does that change the course of world events, overall?
It's debatable if Italy ever was a world power.
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States of Italy could have been a great world power.
Dean
2018-04-04 17:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Rob
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
If Tuscany keeps it, it ends up belonging to Italy if/when unification comes. It becomes a plantation colony, I assume, as I think it was in the Guyanas.
I don't the whole string of wars Tuscany was involved in between 1608 and 1860, but if they avoid repeated wars with Britain or Portugal, they should stand a good chance of keeping it, provided they can make it swing in terms of economic management.
If kept through the 19th century, there could be a transition, somewhat like what happened in Cuba and some of the southern cone areas where southern Italians start moving there in greater bulk and become a larger share of a population that I would assume would majority black and ex-slave speaking a pidgin Italian up through the mid-19th century.
Actually, Rob, I was thinking on a rather grand scale, as usual. Could extensive colonization of the Americas forestall Italy's decline, and foster Italian unification? Could Italy remain a great world power under these circumstances, and how does that change the course of world events, overall?
It's debatable if Italy ever was a world power.
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified, empire building was over.
jerry kraus
2018-04-04 17:54:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Rob
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
If Tuscany keeps it, it ends up belonging to Italy if/when unification comes. It becomes a plantation colony, I assume, as I think it was in the Guyanas.
I don't the whole string of wars Tuscany was involved in between 1608 and 1860, but if they avoid repeated wars with Britain or Portugal, they should stand a good chance of keeping it, provided they can make it swing in terms of economic management.
If kept through the 19th century, there could be a transition, somewhat like what happened in Cuba and some of the southern cone areas where southern Italians start moving there in greater bulk and become a larger share of a population that I would assume would majority black and ex-slave speaking a pidgin Italian up through the mid-19th century.
Actually, Rob, I was thinking on a rather grand scale, as usual. Could extensive colonization of the Americas forestall Italy's decline, and foster Italian unification? Could Italy remain a great world power under these circumstances, and how does that change the course of world events, overall?
It's debatable if Italy ever was a world power.
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified, empire building was over.
Sure. But the dream of a unified Italy was an old one, certainly dating from at least the late fifteenth century, as Italian City States struggled to fend off the newly reunited French, energized by the ending of the hundred years war. That was one of the dreams of Alexander VI, Rodrigo Borgia, and his Cardinal/General son Cesare. Possibly, the vision of overseas empires in the Americas might have been sufficient to get the Italians to actually work together, for a change.
The Horny Goat
2018-04-04 22:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified, empire building was over.
So what do you think should be the POD? One of the above finances
Columbus (who was after all Italian) rather than Ferdinand and
Isabella?

Given the political upheaval in Spain I don't think a Spanish
expedition could have been earlier than 1492 but an Italian expedition
certainly could. Nothing on the scale of Granada was happening in
Italy at that time!
jerry kraus
2018-04-05 13:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified, empire building was over.
So what do you think should be the POD? One of the above finances
Columbus (who was after all Italian) rather than Ferdinand and
Isabella?
Given the political upheaval in Spain I don't think a Spanish
expedition could have been earlier than 1492 but an Italian expedition
certainly could. Nothing on the scale of Granada was happening in
Italy at that time!
Interesting idea, Horny. So, why DIDN'T Italy seek to cross the Atlantic, rather than Spain? I suppose the Italians were sufficiently preoccupied with the Ottomans in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries that they might not have wanted too many distractions for their various navies. In any case, they were quite the center of Mediterranean Commerce, and they might not have particularly seen the need for other Italian empires far afield. Necessity is indeed the mother of invention, and the Spaniards and Portuguese simply had far more need to strike out in new directions than the Italians did.

Still, the fifteenth century Italians were extremely inventive -- Leonardo da Vinci et al. One could almost imagine the Duke of Milan financing Columbus, he was certainly rich enough, at times. What if he had?
Pete Barrett
2018-04-05 17:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice
and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for
centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in
Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten
together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States
of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified,
empire building was over.
So what do you think should be the POD? One of the above finances
Columbus (who was after all Italian) rather than Ferdinand and Isabella?
Given the political upheaval in Spain I don't think a Spanish expedition
could have been earlier than 1492 but an Italian expedition certainly
could. Nothing on the scale of Granada was happening in Italy at that
time!
Did any of the Italian powers have ocean-going ships? They were mostly
centred on the Mediterranean, with galleys and things, rather than the
Atlantic, which needs a different kind of vessel.
--
Pete BARRETT
jerry kraus
2018-04-05 18:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say Venice
and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had, for
centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various powers in
Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could have gotten
together and supported a colonial empire in the Americas, the States
of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified,
empire building was over.
So what do you think should be the POD? One of the above finances
Columbus (who was after all Italian) rather than Ferdinand and Isabella?
Given the political upheaval in Spain I don't think a Spanish expedition
could have been earlier than 1492 but an Italian expedition certainly
could. Nothing on the scale of Granada was happening in Italy at that
time!
Did any of the Italian powers have ocean-going ships? They were mostly
centred on the Mediterranean, with galleys and things, rather than the
Atlantic, which needs a different kind of vessel.
--
Pete BARRETT
Well, they obviously did by 1608, or they obtained them, in any case, for the Thornton expedition. The Italians were rich enough in the fifteenth century that they could purchase anything they wanted, in any case, certainly including ocean going ships, if only the Spanish and Portuguese had them in quantity.

Nevertheless, I'm sure most of their fleet was only suitable for Mediterranean travel, since that was the focus of their commerce. It would certainly have required some technological adapation, and, that might be a significant factor here.
Pete Barrett
2018-04-07 07:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Dean
Post by jerry kraus
Well, obviously, Rome was, Dean. And, most people would say
Venice and Genoa were, at times. The problem the Italians had,
for centuries, as Machiavelli points out, is that the various
powers in Italy kept fighting each other. Maybe if they could
have gotten together and supported a colonial empire in the
Americas, the States of Italy could have been a great world power.
Rome, Venice and Genoa were not Italy. By the time Italy was unified,
empire building was over.
So what do you think should be the POD? One of the above finances
Columbus (who was after all Italian) rather than Ferdinand and Isabella?
Given the political upheaval in Spain I don't think a Spanish
expedition could have been earlier than 1492 but an Italian
expedition certainly could. Nothing on the scale of Granada was
happening in Italy at that time!
Did any of the Italian powers have ocean-going ships? They were mostly
centred on the Mediterranean, with galleys and things, rather than the
Atlantic, which needs a different kind of vessel.
--
Pete BARRETT
Well, they obviously did by 1608, or they obtained them, in any case,
for the Thornton expedition. The Italians were rich enough in the
fifteenth century that they could purchase anything they wanted, in any
case, certainly including ocean going ships, if only the Spanish and
Portuguese had them in quantity.
Nevertheless, I'm sure most of their fleet was only suitable for
Mediterranean travel, since that was the focus of their commerce. It
would certainly have required some technological adapation, and, that
might be a significant factor here.
The Genoese had ships which could trade with Ireland, and I've heard
somewhere that Columbus himself went as far as Scandinavia at some point
before 1492, though I don't know if it was a Genoese ship. But the
ability to travel up and down the Iberian coast, and through the Bay of
Biscay, the Irish Sea, and the Channel, is very different from the
ability to cross the Atlantic.

The ships in Columbus's first voyage were owned by Spanish citizens, and
hired by F&I for Columbus; and presumably Genoa (for instance) could have
afforded to hire the same ships for the same purpose. But here's the rub:
any owner would be loath to hire his ships out on an expedition which he
thought they weren't coming back from, but F&I had the political power to
compel him to do so; Genoa or Venice did not (or not in Spain or
Portugal, at least).
--
Pete BARRETT
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-07 17:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete Barrett
The ships in Columbus's first voyage were owned by
Spanish citizens, and hired by F&I for Columbus; and
presumably Genoa (for instance) could have afforded
to hire the same ships for the same purpose. But
here's the rub: any owner would be loath to hire his
ships out on an expedition which he thought they
weren't coming back from, but F&I had the political
power to compel him to do so; Genoa or Venice did
not (or not in Spain or Portugal, at least).
The SANTA MARIA was owned by its captain, de la Cosa,
who sailed with Columbus. It seems unlikely he was
forced to do so, and he was heavily involved in later
expeditions, including Columbus in 1493, and Ojeda and
Vespucci in 1499.

As for Genoa or Venice - first, it seems likely that
any hire payment for the ship would include a risk
premium, and second, the promoting state could post
a bond to be paid if the ship was lost. Either of the
Italian republics could afford this.

In fact SANTA MARIA was lost; de la Cosa was compensated
by F&I for the loss.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-07 17:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
The SANTA MARIA was owned by its captain, de la Cosa,
who sailed with Columbus. It seems unlikely he was
forced to do so, and he was heavily involved in later
expeditions, including Columbus in 1493, and Ojeda and
Vespucci in 1499.
It turns out that NINA was owned by the Nino brothers,
three of whom sailed with Columbus: one as master of
NINA, another as a hand on her, and one as pilot of
SANTA MARIA.

PINTA was owned or leased by Martín Alonso Pinzón, a
wealthy mariner of the Cadiz region, who invested a
large amount of his own money in the expedition, and
sailed with Columbus, along with his two brothers.

So it does not appear that any of the ships were
requisitioned by royal authority.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Pete Barrett
2018-04-08 12:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Rostrom
The SANTA MARIA was owned by its captain, de la Cosa, who sailed with
Columbus. It seems unlikely he was forced to do so, and he was heavily
involved in later expeditions, including Columbus in 1493, and Ojeda
and Vespucci in 1499.
It turns out that NINA was owned by the Nino brothers,
three of whom sailed with Columbus: one as master of NINA, another as a
hand on her, and one as pilot of SANTA MARIA.
PINTA was owned or leased by Martín Alonso Pinzón, a wealthy mariner of
the Cadiz region, who invested a large amount of his own money in the
expedition, and sailed with Columbus, along with his two brothers.
So it does not appear that any of the ships were requisitioned by royal
authority.
According to the Wikipedia article on Santa Maria (https://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar%C3%ADa_(ship)), the voyage was financed
by a syndicate of Genoese bankers who were resident in Seville. Now if
that's the case, almost anyone with the money could have hired the ships,
so why did Columbus feel the need to hawk his idea around the courts of
Europe to get support? And why was he only able to set out once he'd got
royal support from somewhere?

There's something I'm missing here which makes state support necessary,
but I can't see what it might be.
--
Pete BARRETT
jerry kraus
2018-04-09 14:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by Rich Rostrom
The SANTA MARIA was owned by its captain, de la Cosa, who sailed with
Columbus. It seems unlikely he was forced to do so, and he was heavily
involved in later expeditions, including Columbus in 1493, and Ojeda
and Vespucci in 1499.
It turns out that NINA was owned by the Nino brothers,
three of whom sailed with Columbus: one as master of NINA, another as a
hand on her, and one as pilot of SANTA MARIA.
PINTA was owned or leased by Martín Alonso Pinzón, a wealthy mariner of
the Cadiz region, who invested a large amount of his own money in the
expedition, and sailed with Columbus, along with his two brothers.
So it does not appear that any of the ships were requisitioned by royal
authority.
According to the Wikipedia article on Santa Maria (https://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar%C3%ADa_(ship)), the voyage was financed
by a syndicate of Genoese bankers who were resident in Seville. Now if
that's the case, almost anyone with the money could have hired the ships,
so why did Columbus feel the need to hawk his idea around the courts of
Europe to get support? And why was he only able to set out once he'd got
royal support from somewhere?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Pete Barrett
There's something I'm missing here which makes state support necessary,
but I can't see what it might be.
Excellent point, Pete. I think we get back to Benjamin Franklin, here, "necessity is the mother of invention". You see, the Italians could manage pretty well on their Mediterranean trade alone, while the Spanish and the Portuguese were largely shut out. And without full scale state support, it was very difficult to get enough military backing to defend and support overseas colonies and trade. The ships could be financed, but, the long term naval backing would not be available, and, hence, the colonies would not survive. Does that make sense? The Italian governments didn't think it was really worth the bother, from an economic point of view, while for the Portuguese and the Spanish, it was.
Post by Pete Barrett
--
Pete BARRETT
Pete Barrett
2018-04-09 19:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
Excellent point, Pete. I think we get back to Benjamin Franklin, here,
"necessity is the mother of invention". You see, the Italians could
manage pretty well on their Mediterranean trade alone, while the Spanish
and the Portuguese were largely shut out. And without full scale
state support, it was very difficult to get enough military backing to
defend and support overseas colonies and trade. The ships could be
financed, but, the long term naval backing would not be available, and,
hence, the colonies would not survive. Does that make sense? The
Italian governments didn't think it was really worth the bother, from an
economic point of view, while for the Portuguese and the Spanish, it
was.
But Columbus wasn't thinking in terms of colonies when he set out on his
first voyage across the Atlantic - he just wanted to open up a route to
Asia; so why did he need state support? And for the matter of that, the
Catholic Monarchs didn't need to support him (and they don't seem to have
done, financially) - they could have waited to see if he was successful,
and given support to colonisation once he'd come back.

So what could F&I do for Columbus which no one else could? I think it
must be something to do with giving him a monopoly on any trade via the
Atlantic (hence the Admiral of the Ocean Sea title, and the position of
Viceroy for any lands he claimed for Spain). That would be worth a few
bob! But I think he could have gone without it, and then seen who bid
highest when he got back.
--
Pete BARRETT
jerry kraus
2018-04-09 19:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by jerry kraus
Excellent point, Pete. I think we get back to Benjamin Franklin, here,
"necessity is the mother of invention". You see, the Italians could
manage pretty well on their Mediterranean trade alone, while the Spanish
and the Portuguese were largely shut out. And without full scale
state support, it was very difficult to get enough military backing to
defend and support overseas colonies and trade. The ships could be
financed, but, the long term naval backing would not be available, and,
hence, the colonies would not survive. Does that make sense? The
Italian governments didn't think it was really worth the bother, from an
economic point of view, while for the Portuguese and the Spanish, it
was.
But Columbus wasn't thinking in terms of colonies when he set out on his
first voyage across the Atlantic - he just wanted to open up a route to
Asia; so why did he need state support? And for the matter of that, the
Catholic Monarchs didn't need to support him (and they don't seem to have
done, financially) - they could have waited to see if he was successful,
and given support to colonisation once he'd come back.
So what could F&I do for Columbus which no one else could? I think it
must be something to do with giving him a monopoly on any trade via the
Atlantic (hence the Admiral of the Ocean Sea title, and the position of
Viceroy for any lands he claimed for Spain). That would be worth a few
bob! But I think he could have gone without it, and then seen who bid
highest when he got back.
--
Pete BARRETT
Well, Pete, I would have thought that maintaining and enforcing an ocean trade route against piracy would require a good deal of naval support, if it was to be kept open and effective. Effectively, enforcing Columbus' monopoly would have required a good deal of state support in the form of heavily armed naval support ships. Columbus didn't just want to discover things, he wanted money and power, and, as it says in Proverbs 11:4

"Wealth is not profitable on a day of wrath, but righteousness rescues from death."

In other words, those Italian financiers could not possibly protect Columbus from violent, greedy pirates, but the Spanish State could!

I suspect if Columbus had simply wanted to discover a trade route to China, period, he wouldn't have needed Spanish backing. But, as you say, he wanted much more than that, and, the wealth and power he craved could never have been maintained without government military backing.
Pete Barrett
2018-04-10 17:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
Well, Pete, I would have thought that maintaining and enforcing an ocean
trade route against piracy would require a good deal of naval support,
if it was to be kept open and effective.
Piracy? I think there was a certain amount of Basque piracy, and there
were corsairs in the eastern Mediterranean and North Africa, but I don't
think any of them had ocean going boats at this time - they'd have been
preying on coastal traffic. The English piracy (and Dutch and French to a
lesser extent) which so affected the Spanish treasure ships in the 16th
century was a matter for the future.

I suppose he might have been expecting to encounter Chinese or Malay
pirates, since he was expecting to get to Asia. But I don't think they'd
have paid much attention to the Catholic Monarchs!
Post by jerry kraus
Effectively, enforcing
Columbus' monopoly would have required a good deal of state support in
the form of heavily armed naval support ships.
True, probably; but did F&I provide anything like that?
Post by jerry kraus
Columbus didn't just
want to discover things, he wanted money and power, and, as it says in
Proverbs 11:4
"Wealth is not profitable on a day of wrath, but righteousness rescues from death."
In other words, those Italian financiers could not possibly protect
Columbus from violent, greedy pirates, but the Spanish State could!
I suspect if Columbus had simply wanted to discover a trade route to
China, period, he wouldn't have needed Spanish backing. But, as you
say, he wanted much more than that, and, the wealth and power he craved
could never have been maintained without government military backing.
I don't think I entirely agree. What Columbus got from F&I, if he got
anything worth having, was protection against encroachment from _law
abiding_ Spaniards (and anyone else who was prepared to accept F&I's
right to make laws in the area). I think any protection against pirates
or others who didn't recognise the authority of the Spanish state (such
as the natives!) he'd have to provide himself, I think, at least at first.
--
Pete BARRETT
jerry kraus
2018-04-10 18:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by jerry kraus
Well, Pete, I would have thought that maintaining and enforcing an ocean
trade route against piracy would require a good deal of naval support,
if it was to be kept open and effective.
Piracy? I think there was a certain amount of Basque piracy, and there
were corsairs in the eastern Mediterranean and North Africa, but I don't
think any of them had ocean going boats at this time - they'd have been
preying on coastal traffic. The English piracy (and Dutch and French to a
lesser extent) which so affected the Spanish treasure ships in the 16th
century was a matter for the future.
I suppose he might have been expecting to encounter Chinese or Malay
pirates, since he was expecting to get to Asia. But I don't think they'd
have paid much attention to the Catholic Monarchs!
Post by jerry kraus
Effectively, enforcing
Columbus' monopoly would have required a good deal of state support in
the form of heavily armed naval support ships.
True, probably; but did F&I provide anything like that?
Post by jerry kraus
Columbus didn't just
want to discover things, he wanted money and power, and, as it says in
Proverbs 11:4
"Wealth is not profitable on a day of wrath, but righteousness rescues from death."
In other words, those Italian financiers could not possibly protect
Columbus from violent, greedy pirates, but the Spanish State could!
I suspect if Columbus had simply wanted to discover a trade route to
China, period, he wouldn't have needed Spanish backing. But, as you
say, he wanted much more than that, and, the wealth and power he craved
could never have been maintained without government military backing.
I don't think I entirely agree. What Columbus got from F&I, if he got
anything worth having, was protection against encroachment from _law
abiding_ Spaniards (and anyone else who was prepared to accept F&I's
right to make laws in the area). I think any protection against pirates
or others who didn't recognise the authority of the Spanish state (such
as the natives!) he'd have to provide himself, I think, at least at first.
--
Pete BARRETT
You're probably right, Pete. But, wouldn't Columbus have effectively seen them as pirates?
t***@go.com
2018-04-13 18:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by jerry kraus
Excellent point, Pete. I think we get back to Benjamin Franklin, here,
"necessity is the mother of invention". You see, the Italians could
manage pretty well on their Mediterranean trade alone, while the Spanish
and the Portuguese were largely shut out. And without full scale
state support, it was very difficult to get enough military backing to
defend and support overseas colonies and trade. The ships could be
financed, but, the long term naval backing would not be available, and,
hence, the colonies would not survive. Does that make sense? The
Italian governments didn't think it was really worth the bother, from an
economic point of view, while for the Portuguese and the Spanish, it
was.
But Columbus wasn't thinking in terms of colonies when he set out on his
first voyage across the Atlantic - he just wanted to open up a route to
Asia; so why did he need state support? And for the matter of that, the
Catholic Monarchs didn't need to support him (and they don't seem to have
done, financially) - they could have waited to see if he was successful,
and given support to colonisation once he'd come back.
So what could F&I do for Columbus which no one else could? I think it
must be something to do with giving him a monopoly on any trade via the
Atlantic (hence the Admiral of the Ocean Sea title, and the position of
Viceroy for any lands he claimed for Spain). That would be worth a few
bob! But I think he could have gone without it, and then seen who bid
highest when he got back.
--
Pete BARRETT
Well, Pete, I would have thought that maintaining and enforcing an ocean trade route against piracy would require a good deal of naval support, if it was to be kept open and effective. Effectively, enforcing Columbus' monopoly would have required a good deal of state support in the form of heavily armed naval support ships. Columbus didn't just want to discover things, he wanted money and power, and, as it says in Proverbs 11:4
"Wealth is not profitable on a day of wrath, but righteousness rescues from death."
In other words, those Italian financiers could not possibly protect Columbus from violent, greedy pirates, but the Spanish State could!
I suspect if Columbus had simply wanted to discover a trade route to China, period, he wouldn't have needed Spanish backing. But, as you say, he wanted much more than that, and, the wealth and power he craved could never have been maintained without government military backing.
What is a 'pirate' when nation states routinely issue
Letters of Marque and Reprisal?

In this era there is generally no great difference between
a military warship and a trading vessel except for the
commission of the crew and the vessel, and the relative
trade off of weight for cargo, speed, and slots for
cannon.

Every ship on the ocean can cut more bays in the side and
fill them with cannon, and get letters of Marque and Reprisal
from their government and get portions of seized cargo that
they get from captured ships as a war prize.

When they do this however they sacrifice speed and cargo capacity.

However nearly every civilian trading vessel had some
cannon in their ports and could return fire if military
ships fired upon them. Some times this happened because
various nations were at war in the history of Europe
from the 1500s to the 1800s, and the authority to attack
ships and legally obtain partial ownership over the cargo
depended on the flag that they were flying.

Cannon on the side of the warship also gave advantage
to ships to defend against priacy or unreasonable
taxation in the seas near India or China as well or
in the East Indies. The local sailing ships, canoes, or
other warships did not often have cannon mounted in the ships,
and this helped to protect them if sailing either near large
empires or near islands inhabited by smaller local tribes. It
took some expertise to manufacture the cannon, but
comparatively less so to cut mounts for them in the ships.

When Jean Laffite died he was an admiral of Simon
Bolivar's Grand Columbia. He died when what appeared to be
Spanish trading ships fired after he attempted to take them.

After he left New Orleans after the War of 1812 he set up
a new camp on Galveston Island. As a theoretical Mexican
official, did he have the power to issue letters of Marque
and Reprisal to his men if they asked for them? It is
a puzzle.

Were they pirates? No - that is if they were acting
as legitimate agents of a legitimate government called
Mexico. (Did Mexico exist at the time? Well, maybe.)

This situation changed in the 1800s. Steamships were
able to carry more cargo of either materials for trade
or mounted cannon, but they became dependent on reliable
sources of fuel to power them. With the development of
ironclads in the later 1800s, however, warships became
specialized equipment that was not easily adapted from
or interchangeable with ships used for commerce.

The nations of the world then generally negotiated
treaties among them banning letters of Marque and Reprisal.

The U.S. however does not recognize the 1856 Paris Declaration
because it is an enumerated power of Congress in the U.S.
Constitution. In general, it has not issued letters of
Marque and Reprisal since the Civil War, however it might
have almost done so regarding Goodyear blimps during WWII
and more recent legislation that never passed.

Over all, however, if these trading ships encountered
canoes or junks or other vessels from various states in
India or Indonesia or elsewhere on the seas that they were
not trading with but were passing some distance from en
route they were not effectively defenseless.

Some times the navies of the flag that they were flying
might help them months or years later, but they generally
both had and were allowed to have arms of military
capacity on their ships because it was not expected that
any navy would clear the seas of piracy to the level of
safety that meant that ships could sail without firepower
on board for defense if they encountered a hostile ship
of unknown origin on the high seas.
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-17 16:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@go.com
What is a 'pirate' when nation states routinely issue
Letters of Marque and Reprisal?
A ship which attacks and captures a merchant ship
_not_ during a state of war between the ship's
country and the attacker's country (if any).
Post by t***@go.com
In this era there is generally no great difference between
a military warship and a trading vessel except for the
commission of the crew and the vessel, and the relative
trade off of weight for cargo, speed, and slots for
cannon.
_What_????

Merchant ships and warships were built to fundamentally
different designs. One might as well say there is no
great difference today between civilian aircraft and
combat aircraft.
Post by t***@go.com
Every ship on the ocean can cut more bays in the side and
fill them with cannon, and get letters of Marque and Reprisal
from their government and get portions of seized cargo that
they get from captured ships as a war prize.
Most improvised privateers mounted a few guns on the
main deck. It was dangerous to cut holes in the hull,
and non-warships didn't have a gun deck.
Post by t***@go.com
However nearly every civilian trading vessel had some
cannon in their ports and could return fire if military
ships fired upon them.
Civilian ships were nearly always unarmed. If they had
any guns, they would be small guns on the main deck.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
t***@go.com
2018-04-13 18:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerry kraus
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spedizione_Thornton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_expedition_(1608)
British Explorer Robert Thornton actually successfully visited and planned out colonies in present day Brazil in the early seventeenth century, on behalf of Ferdinand I de Medici, of Tuscany. Unfortunately, Ferdinand died, before any Italian colonists could actually be transported there. Suppose Ferdinand lives longer, and the Italian colonies are actually established at the mouth of the Amazon. How might this change history?
I am thinking that the Spanish did not hate the Italians
any more than the Portuguese, but Spain and Portugal were
still both ruled under a union of the crowns at this point.

It seems to me more than feasible that Spain might consider
Italian colonies in the New World to be no more of a threat
to it than Portuguese colonies, which could make Italian
colonies very feasible if started in this era.

My guess is that if successful, there might be more colonies
by other Italian city-states in the New World and Brazil
could be smaller.

How the Napoleonic wars might play out with them is hard
to say. They might become British colonies after France
takes them over. Maybe even a brother of Napoleon rules
it for a short while and even Napoleon himself is exiled
there?

It would seem to me that Italy could be harder to unify in
the 1800s if some of these Italian city-states had a military
with experience fighting against Brazil to maintain the
independence of their colonies in the early and middle 1800s.

In our time line, the Netherlands are an independent nation,
but for a while they were part of the Holy Roman Empire and
they revolted and withdrew from it because Spain and the
Hapsburgs claimed it as their domain based on the HRE throne
generally going to the Hapsburgs. Different parts of Italy
were also part of the HRE at certain points in time. Either
way it might affect unification.

Maybe Brazil might not exist at all, for everyone there
would speak Italian, and the idea that it was once
thought of as a Portuguese colony would just be a historic
curiosity. Maybe even Portugal would not exist because
the union of the crowns in Iberia would remain permanent.

Another major POD might be the War of Spanish Succession.
Gibraltar would be much more vital to the Italian states
with colonies than to the U.K. because it would be the
only outlet to the Atlantic and their colonies. The
truth of the matter is that the only place in the former
northern HRE besides the Netherlands and Belgium that
has an outlet to the Atlantic without going through the
straghts of Denmark is the surrounding area of Hamburg
which was generally the domain of Hanover and the
British until the middle 1800s.

The Hanseatic League earlier was specifically based upon
a canal that bypassed the Danish Straights. Gibraltar to
the Italian colonies in North or South America could be as
much of an impediment to Italian colonies in North or South
America as Denmark was to Swedish, Russian, or Prussian
colonies in the 1500s or 1600s. (Deleware was somewhat
a Swedish colony for a short while.)

It is difficult to say when these colonies might become
independent of the Italian city states or Italy. In our
time line French Guiana is still considered to be part of
France.

Who knows. Maybe Garibaldi sells it to the U.S. to help
finance the wars of unification and it becomes a U.S.
State or a vast number of States some time in the 20th
century. If the Porguguese colony is entirely subsumed
by the Italian colonies and their land area is the same
as our time line's Brazil, perhaps the land area of the
United States is almost twice the size that it is in
our time line.

If not it is hard to imagine that the 20th century could be
the same, but WWII could start as a war between the U.S. and
Italy in South America if it would mostly be. (If not
China and Japan.) Probably the Italian navy might be
more substantial than that of France, and have a better
ability to sail into the Atlantic. This would seriously
mutate WWII because the U.S. might enter before the U.K.
or France. It might be that the whole 20th century would
be vastly different however, based upon the spin offs
of the earlier PODs.
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