Discussion:
Meta: bad guys in the sea of time.
(too old to reply)
Dan Goodman
2006-08-05 04:16:54 UTC
Permalink
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.

Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say to
Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?

Or stories by conservatives in which Evil Liberals go back to the time
of the US Constitutional Convention? Or equivalent stories by liberals
about Evil Conservatives?
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Stan Boleslawski
2006-08-05 05:06:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
Unfamiliar with "Guns of the South"?
(If you are unfamiliar with it, you haven't missed much)

Stan B.
Dan Goodman
2006-08-05 22:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
Unfamiliar with "Guns of the South"?
(If you are unfamiliar with it, you haven't missed much)
Not quite the same. ISOT is a community being sent back without the
inhabitants' knowledge. If I recall correctly, in _Guns of the South_
they entered the past freely and of their own will.

I read parts of that book, by the way.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Peter Bruells
2006-08-06 08:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
Unfamiliar with "Guns of the South"?
(If you are unfamiliar with it, you haven't missed much)
Not quite the same. ISOT is a community being sent back without the
inhabitants' knowledge. If I recall correctly, in _Guns of the South_
they entered the past freely and of their own will.
You recall correctly. White supremacists travel back in time to change
history to their liking. Certainly not ISOT and only barely
alternative history. For me, AH means that the POD happens because of
"natural" events of that time.
Dan Goodman
2006-08-09 00:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Bruells
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval
vessels, mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in
those communities end up in charge.
Unfamiliar with "Guns of the South"?
(If you are unfamiliar with it, you haven't missed much)
Not quite the same. ISOT is a community being sent back without the
inhabitants' knowledge. If I recall correctly, in _Guns of the
South_ they entered the past freely and of their own will.
You recall correctly. White supremacists travel back in time to change
history to their liking. Certainly not ISOT and only barely
alternative history. For me, AH means that the POD happens because of
"natural" events of that time.
In Fritz Leiber's Change War stories, there may not _be_ any natural
events. It's possible that the Snakes and Spiders between them have
changed the history of the universe so thoroughly that there's no way
to reconstruct any of it.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
David Kohlhoff
2006-08-05 05:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say to
Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?
Or stories by conservatives in which Evil Liberals go back to the time
of the US Constitutional Convention? Or equivalent stories by liberals
about Evil Conservatives?
For the most part ISOTs are wish-fulfillment. The whole point is seeing
how the good guys could have improved on the past.

A bit of a exception to this rule is "The Guns of the South" by you
know who. The bad guys actually attempt to help the Confederacy get
independence for explicitly racist reasons. Unfortunately the novel
strains to turn the leaders of the Confederacy into the Good Guys
(manumission after winning the war overwhelmingly, pull the other one)
as opposed to who they were in OTL.

David Kohlhoff
Dan Goodman
2006-08-05 22:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kohlhoff
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say
to Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?
Or stories by conservatives in which Evil Liberals go back to the
time of the US Constitutional Convention? Or equivalent stories by
liberals about Evil Conservatives?
For the most part ISOTs are wish-fulfillment. The whole point is
seeing how the good guys could have improved on the past.
A bit of a exception to this rule is "The Guns of the South" by you
know who. The bad guys actually attempt to help the Confederacy get
independence for explicitly racist reasons.
As I recall, they weren't sent back in time without their knowledge;
they went back deliberately.

Which can make for a number of good stories. And adding two sides
time-travelling to make history come out right is the premise of Fritz
Leiber's Changewar stories -- in which it's not certain there _was_ an
original state of the universe.
Post by David Kohlhoff
Unfortunately the novel
strains to turn the leaders of the Confederacy into the Good Guys
(manumission after winning the war overwhelmingly, pull the other one)
as opposed to who they were in OTL.
For some reason, the belief that the Confederacy would have abolished
slavery is fairly common.

Now, why aren't there stories about how the Brits win the Revolutionary
War, and shortly afterwards grant the colonies their independence?
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
James Nicoll
2006-08-05 13:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say to
Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?
Or stories by conservatives in which Evil Liberals go back to the time
of the US Constitutional Convention? Or equivalent stories by liberals
about Evil Conservatives?
There's A REBEL IN TIME, where an IRAB white supremist travels
back to fix the outcome of the civil war and GUNS OF THE SOUTH, where
evil South Africans ditto.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Dan Goodman
2006-08-05 22:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say
to Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?
Or stories by conservatives in which Evil Liberals go back to the
time of the US Constitutional Convention? Or equivalent stories by
liberals about Evil Conservatives?
There's A REBEL IN TIME, where an IRAB white supremist travels
back to fix the outcome of the civil war and GUNS OF THE SOUTH, where
evil South Africans ditto.
Not quite the same thing when the bad guys enter the past freely and of
their own will.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Jack Linthicum
2006-08-05 15:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.

Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition mob
was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals. WI a meeting
of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant "supporters"
was transported back to some Mediterranean location in the era between
50 BC and 50 AD?
Stan Boleslawski
2006-08-05 17:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition mob
was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals. WI a meeting
of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant "supporters"
was transported back to some Mediterranean location in the era between
50 BC and 50 AD?
If Turtledove really does read SHWI, he could very well have just
gotten
an idea for his next book from you.

I really dislike ISOTs, so I'm not going to run with this one.

Stan B.
Jack Linthicum
2006-08-05 19:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition mob
was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals. WI a meeting
of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant "supporters"
was transported back to some Mediterranean location in the era between
50 BC and 50 AD?
If Turtledove really does read SHWI, he could very well have just
gotten
an idea for his next book from you.
I really dislike ISOTs, so I'm not going to run with this one.
Stan B.
One of my favorite "time travel" stories involved two scientists that
need "balance" to switch places in time, they had to grab two bodies
out of Rome to replace their arriving bodies. They were killed in the
arena and the two Romans, after they figured out things like traffic
signals, ruled the lower levels of the Manhattan underworld. So I can
see the ISOT going to the Med with 50 or so gangsters who will run out
of ammo and gas very soon and either a Bachanalian revel or a copper
mine full of hard cases taking their place in the Catskills.
Stan Boleslawski
2006-08-05 20:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition mob
was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals. WI a meeting
of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant "supporters"
was transported back to some Mediterranean location in the era between
50 BC and 50 AD?
If Turtledove really does read SHWI, he could very well have just
gotten
an idea for his next book from you.
I really dislike ISOTs, so I'm not going to run with this one.
Stan B.
One of my favorite "time travel" stories involved two scientists that
need "balance" to switch places in time, they had to grab two bodies
out of Rome to replace their arriving bodies. They were killed in the
arena and the two Romans, after they figured out things like traffic
signals, ruled the lower levels of the Manhattan underworld. So I can
see the ISOT going to the Med with 50 or so gangsters who will run out
of ammo and gas very soon and either a Bachanalian revel or a copper
mine full of hard cases taking their place in the Catskills.
Clever idea, but this topic seems to be approaching RASFW territory
or AHWI territory - remember, "what happens in a.h.w-i stays in
a.h.w-i" - rather than SHWI territory.

Stan B.
Jack Linthicum
2006-08-05 20:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition mob
was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals. WI a meeting
of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant "supporters"
was transported back to some Mediterranean location in the era between
50 BC and 50 AD?
If Turtledove really does read SHWI, he could very well have just
gotten
an idea for his next book from you.
I really dislike ISOTs, so I'm not going to run with this one.
Stan B.
One of my favorite "time travel" stories involved two scientists that
need "balance" to switch places in time, they had to grab two bodies
out of Rome to replace their arriving bodies. They were killed in the
arena and the two Romans, after they figured out things like traffic
signals, ruled the lower levels of the Manhattan underworld. So I can
see the ISOT going to the Med with 50 or so gangsters who will run out
of ammo and gas very soon and either a Bachanalian revel or a copper
mine full of hard cases taking their place in the Catskills.
Clever idea, but this topic seems to be approaching RASFW territory
or AHWI territory - remember, "what happens in a.h.w-i stays in
a.h.w-i" - rather than SHWI territory.
Stan B.
agree but it's meta, just like it's okay to vandalize because it's
Hallowe'en.
Dan Goodman
2006-08-05 22:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval
vessels, mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in
those communities end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the
Prohibition mob was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish
criminals. WI a meeting of the "management" of several mobs with
their attendant "supporters" was transported back to some
Mediterranean location in the era between 50 BC and 50 AD?
If Turtledove really does read SHWI, he could very well have just
gotten
an idea for his next book from you.
I really dislike ISOTs, so I'm not going to run with this one.
Stan B.
One of my favorite "time travel" stories involved two scientists that
need "balance" to switch places in time, they had to grab two bodies
out of Rome to replace their arriving bodies. They were killed in the
arena and the two Romans, after they figured out things like traffic
signals, ruled the lower levels of the Manhattan underworld.
Three, actually. One is a prostitute who sort of goes legit; one goes
into politics; only one becomes a Mob leader.

I think it was by Poul Anderson, under the name of Sanders (Winston P.
Sanders).
Post by Jack Linthicum
So I can
see the ISOT going to the Med with 50 or so gangsters who will run out
of ammo and gas very soon and either a Bachanalian revel or a copper
mine full of hard cases taking their place in the Catskills.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
n***@hotmail.com
2006-08-07 07:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
One of my favorite "time travel" stories involved two scientists that
need "balance" to switch places in time, they had to grab two bodies
out of Rome to replace their arriving bodies. They were killed in the
arena and the two Romans, after they figured out things like traffic
signals, ruled the lower levels of the Manhattan underworld.
Three, actually. One is a prostitute who sort of goes legit; one goes
into politics; only one becomes a Mob leader.
I think it was by Poul Anderson, under the name of Sanders (Winston P.
Sanders).
It does sound like Anderson. "The Man who came Early" is another
example of the ISOT concept where the transplanted "hero" from the
future (an army engineer IMS) is not able to achieve anything useful.
In fact having high-technological types underestimate the intelligence
of less advanced cultures is a common theme in Anderson's work (_The
High Cruscade_ and "The Nest" both use this theme).

As for an ISOT which wouldn't develop into a military take-over of the
past, how about transplanting the Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1908
with the same territory from 1992.

In 1908, the parts (or whole) of several east european countries and
Austria are probably militarily capable of defending themselves, but
with their industry ground down after years of communism and Austria's
concentration on being neutral, they are unlikely to stage an invasion
of the surrounding territory. They could make a nice income out of
selling knowledge - particularly in the fields of science and
engineering. There would also be a lot of interest in "historical"
documents dealing with the rise and fall of communism, fascism and the
world wars.

In 1992, Austria-Hungry will of course be somewhat backwards
technologically speaking, but should have no major trouble dealing with
an EU that is interested in peaceful expansion and is willing to invest
in infrastructure improvements. There will of course be some disputes
about borders to sort out (e.g. in Galicia), but hopefully these
shouldn't be insoluble. Also, there is a certain young artist living
in Vienna that some people might like to talk to.

Cheers,
Nigel.
James Nicoll
2006-08-05 20:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition mob
was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals. WI a meeting
of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant "supporters"
was transported back to some Mediterranean location in the era between
50 BC and 50 AD?
If Turtledove really does read SHWI, he could very well have just
gotten
an idea for his next book from you.
I really dislike ISOTs, so I'm not going to run with this one.
POD: 1860

Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Stan Boleslawski
2006-08-05 23:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
POD: 1860
Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
Interesting. A Sicilian Avignon.
Perhaps a "New Vatican" being built on the outskirts of Palermo?
(If the Palermo cathedral is torn down to build a new "St. Peter's",
this would be a great tragedy for the cultural heritage of Sicily,
Europe and the world.) Or perhaps a smaller city being made
into a papal city, e.g. Trapani or Ragusa.
Or is this a TL in which Francis II is deposed and the whole
island becomes papal territory?

Stan B.
James Nicoll
2006-08-06 02:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by James Nicoll
POD: 1860
Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
Interesting. A Sicilian Avignon.
Perhaps a "New Vatican" being built on the outskirts of Palermo?
(If the Palermo cathedral is torn down to build a new "St. Peter's",
this would be a great tragedy for the cultural heritage of Sicily,
Europe and the world.) Or perhaps a smaller city being made
into a papal city, e.g. Trapani or Ragusa.
Or is this a TL in which Francis II is deposed and the whole
island becomes papal territory?
If so, then Napoleon III must be the guy providing the
force to do it. I wonder why he would?
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Stan Boleslawski
2006-08-06 03:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by James Nicoll
POD: 1860
Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
Interesting. A Sicilian Avignon.
Perhaps a "New Vatican" being built on the outskirts of Palermo?
(If the Palermo cathedral is torn down to build a new "St. Peter's",
this would be a great tragedy for the cultural heritage of Sicily,
Europe and the world.) Or perhaps a smaller city being made
into a papal city, e.g. Trapani or Ragusa.
Or is this a TL in which Francis II is deposed and the whole
island becomes papal territory?
If so, then Napoleon III must be the guy providing the
force to do it. I wonder why he would?
He wouldn't have anything to gain by doing so. Louis Napoleon
certainly made some stupid decisions, but with rational
expectations. Certainly, conquering Sicily for papal rule
would not be rational.

Now, in a TL in which the Bourbons keeps one Sicily (the
island itself), would Napoleon III have anything to gain
by preserving Bourbon rule? And would Francis II willingly
give a city to the Pope like Philip the Fair gave Avignon
to Clement? Somehow I think this is all unlikely - but still
far more likely than any "magical" WIs.

Stan B.
Franz
2006-08-06 04:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by James Nicoll
POD: 1860
Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
Interesting. A Sicilian Avignon.
Perhaps a "New Vatican" being built on the outskirts of Palermo?
(If the Palermo cathedral is torn down to build a new "St. Peter's",
this would be a great tragedy for the cultural heritage of Sicily,
Europe and the world.) Or perhaps a smaller city being made
into a papal city, e.g. Trapani or Ragusa.
Or is this a TL in which Francis II is deposed and the whole
island becomes papal territory?
If so, then Napoleon III must be the guy providing the
force to do it. I wonder why he would?
AFAIK Rome was only conquered after Napoleon's defeat: apart the HUGE
amount of ASB needed to make the Sicilian army repel Garibaldi, rome
will only be conquered after N has left

but in OTL Garibaldi conquered Naples after passing through Sicily, so
if he gets repelled on S, Naples will stay Bourbon
so we get a strong (it repelled Garibaldi, you know?) Bourbon southern
italy state, that makes not an option for the Pope to flee as a strong
B will never give him anything more than a small estate
the Pope would be more likely to flle to France, if Nap is still up
FranZ
"Forse tu non pensavi ch'io loico fossi!".
Dante - Inferno XXVII
G. da Montefeltro
James Nicoll
2006-08-06 16:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by James Nicoll
POD: 1860
Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
Interesting. A Sicilian Avignon.
Perhaps a "New Vatican" being built on the outskirts of Palermo?
(If the Palermo cathedral is torn down to build a new "St. Peter's",
this would be a great tragedy for the cultural heritage of Sicily,
Europe and the world.) Or perhaps a smaller city being made
into a papal city, e.g. Trapani or Ragusa.
Or is this a TL in which Francis II is deposed and the whole
island becomes papal territory?
If so, then Napoleon III must be the guy providing the
force to do it. I wonder why he would?
AFAIK Rome was only conquered after Napoleon's defeat: apart the HUGE
amount of ASB needed to make the Sicilian army repel Garibaldi, rome
will only be conquered after N has left
Well, I'll admit I gave this about 30 seconds thought after
thinking up the title, to the point where I nearly had the Pope
leg it to Sardinia. That would have been somewhat counter-productive
for a man trying to avoid Garibaldi and his pals.

How about Mehmet II's invasion of 1480 ends with Sixtus dead,
his successor fled and the Turk in firm (for the moment) control of Rome?
Although why a pope would run to an island and not France is not clear.

In this TL, Columbus will need alternate funding, since Spain
will probably be quite interested in liberating Italy from the Ottoman
Empire.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
James Nicoll
2006-08-06 16:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Franz
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Stan Boleslawski
Post by James Nicoll
POD: 1860
Sicily successfully repells Garibaldi's forces. Sicily is set
aside for the moment so that more important targets may be take care
of instead. Soon after, an army approaches Rome and Pius IX, fearing
what might befall him should he fall into the hands of Garibaldi,
flees to Sicily. Thus begins Island in the Time of See.
Interesting. A Sicilian Avignon.
Perhaps a "New Vatican" being built on the outskirts of Palermo?
(If the Palermo cathedral is torn down to build a new "St. Peter's",
this would be a great tragedy for the cultural heritage of Sicily,
Europe and the world.) Or perhaps a smaller city being made
into a papal city, e.g. Trapani or Ragusa.
Or is this a TL in which Francis II is deposed and the whole
island becomes papal territory?
If so, then Napoleon III must be the guy providing the
force to do it. I wonder why he would?
AFAIK Rome was only conquered after Napoleon's defeat: apart the HUGE
amount of ASB needed to make the Sicilian army repel Garibaldi, rome
will only be conquered after N has left
Well, I'll admit I gave this about 30 seconds thought after
thinking up the title, to the point where I nearly had the Pope
leg it to Sardinia. That would have been somewhat counter-productive
for a man trying to avoid Garibaldi and his pals.
How about Mehmet II's invasion of 1480 ends with Sixtus dead,
his successor fled and the Turk in firm (for the moment) control of Rome?
Although why a pope would run to an island and not France is not clear.
England's out in 1480, unless Popes have more taste for civil
war than I think. Ireland? Probably not.

Divinely inspired, the Pope leads a glorious expedition out
into the Atlantic, establishing a new Rome far beyond the Turkish
reach (which the rather morose Pope Pius III* expects to extend
past Paris any day now) on what is in OTL Santa Catarina Island.


* Not the Pius of OTL but some other person. The man who would have
become Innocent VIII is trambled beneath horses during the flight from
Italy.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
James Nicoll
2006-08-06 16:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Franz
will only be conquered after N has left
Well, I'll admit I gave this about 30 seconds thought after
thinking up the title, to the point where I nearly had the Pope
leg it to Sardinia. That would have been somewhat counter-productive
for a man trying to avoid Garibaldi and his pals.
On the other hand, as an involuntary guest of the future King
of Italy...
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Mad Bad Rabbit
2006-08-06 19:26:48 UTC
Permalink
How about Mehmet II's invasion of 1480 ends with Sixtus dead, his
successor fled and the Turk in firm (for the moment) control of
Rome? Although why a pope would run to an island and not France
is not clear.
WI: Ogedai Khan doesn't die in 1241.

Pope Innocent shall suffer, big time. The Mongols horizontal leap is
beyond all measurement. There is no escaping.

He and the cardinals first flee to Avignon in the winter of 1242, as
Venice is destroyed by Subotai's army, and Rome graciously agrees to
let the Mongols rip them off and burn their furniture for no reason.

The Mongols do whatever they want, to whoever they want, at all
times. By 1243, France and Spain have also fallen, and the Holy See
is moved across the channel to Canterbury.

Jumping is useless; by 1245 the British Isles have fallen, along
with all of the rest of continental Europe except Scandinavia.
Trondheim falls in 1247, forcing the Pope to flee to the last
remaining bit of Christendom not conquered by the Mongols.

And so by 1248, the Holy See has finally settled on its present-day
location in Rekyjavik, Iceland.

--
;K
James Nicoll
2006-08-06 21:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mad Bad Rabbit
How about Mehmet II's invasion of 1480 ends with Sixtus dead, his
successor fled and the Turk in firm (for the moment) control of
Rome? Although why a pope would run to an island and not France
is not clear.
WI: Ogedai Khan doesn't die in 1241.
Pope Innocent shall suffer, big time. The Mongols horizontal leap is
beyond all measurement. There is no escaping.
He and the cardinals first flee to Avignon in the winter of 1242, as
Venice is destroyed by Subotai's army, and Rome graciously agrees to
let the Mongols rip them off and burn their furniture for no reason.
The Mongols do whatever they want, to whoever they want, at all
times. By 1243, France and Spain have also fallen, and the Holy See
is moved across the channel to Canterbury.
Jumping is useless; by 1245 the British Isles have fallen
Did the Mongols have a good track record of crossing salt-water
channels?
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
n***@hotmail.com
2006-08-07 07:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Mad Bad Rabbit
How about Mehmet II's invasion of 1480 ends with Sixtus dead, his
successor fled and the Turk in firm (for the moment) control of
Rome? Although why a pope would run to an island and not France
is not clear.
WI: Ogedai Khan doesn't die in 1241.
Pope Innocent shall suffer, big time. The Mongols horizontal leap is
beyond all measurement. There is no escaping.
He and the cardinals first flee to Avignon in the winter of 1242, as
Venice is destroyed by Subotai's army, and Rome graciously agrees to
let the Mongols rip them off and burn their furniture for no reason.
The Mongols do whatever they want, to whoever they want, at all
times. By 1243, France and Spain have also fallen, and the Holy See
is moved across the channel to Canterbury.
Jumping is useless; by 1245 the British Isles have fallen
Did the Mongols have a good track record of crossing salt-water
channels?
Their most famous attempts at salt-water crossing were against Japan.
These depended upon Chinese ship-building and Naval skills and were
unsuccessful. So the answer is probably no.

However, invading the British Isles is a little easier than invading
Japan (at least it has occured more often), so providing the Mongols
can get some Europeans to build and sail the ships, they might have a
good chance of invading.

Cheers,
Nigel.
Kevrob
2006-08-08 08:31:19 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by n***@hotmail.com
However, invading the British Isles is a little easier than invading
Japan (at least it has occured more often), so providing the Mongols
can get some Europeans to build and sail the ships, they might have a
good chance of invading.
Ireland In The Time of the Sidhe...

would be a nice fantasy trilogy, maybe. :)

Kevin
Mad Bad Rabbit
2006-08-10 22:51:55 UTC
Permalink
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Mad Bad Rabbit
The Mongols do whatever they want, to whoever they want,
at all times. By 1243, France and Spain have also fallen,
and the Holy See is moved across the channel to Canterbury.
Jumping is useless; by 1245 the British Isles have fallen
Did the Mongols have a good track record of crossing salt-water
channels?
Yes, but not one of weather forecasting once they were across.
It would depend on luck.

They could try building a causeway, but from my calculations
it'd take roughly 400 years to complete, and they'd have to
use ordinary rock instead of 60 billion human skulls.

Or a bridge of boats (ala Emperor Caligula) but this one would
have to be seven times as long, and over much rougher water.
--
Post by James Nicoll
;K
Graham Truesdale
2006-08-12 23:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mad Bad Rabbit
WI: Ogedai Khan doesn't die in 1241.
Pope Innocent shall suffer, big time. The Mongols horizontal leap is
beyond all measurement. There is no escaping.
He and the cardinals first flee to Avignon in the winter of 1242, as
Venice is destroyed by Subotai's army, and Rome graciously agrees to
let the Mongols rip them off and burn their furniture for no reason.
The Mongols do whatever they want, to whoever they want, at all
times. By 1243, France and Spain have also fallen, and the Holy See
is moved across the channel to Canterbury.
Jumping is useless; by 1245 the British Isles have fallen, along
with all of the rest of continental Europe except Scandinavia.
Trondheim falls in 1247, forcing the Pope to flee to the last
remaining bit of Christendom not conquered by the Mongols.
And so by 1248, the Holy See has finally settled on its present-day
location in Rekyjavik, Iceland.
Wasn't Greenland still just about in business at that time?
--
Treasure in heaven is exempt from death duties.
Dan Goodman
2006-08-05 22:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition
mob was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals.
Not entirely; there were German mobsters, and I believe some of "good
American stock."
Post by Jack Linthicum
WI a
meeting of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant
"supporters" was transported back to some Mediterranean location in
the era between 50 BC and 50 AD?
Yes, that might be interesting.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Will in New Haven
2006-09-03 21:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition
mob was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals.
Not entirely; there were German mobsters, and I believe some of "good
American stock."
Irish also, and not just the ones on the police force.

Will in New Haven

--

"I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world
to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but
unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and
thank Heaven He has put it in my power."
-Writings of Thomas Paine 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
WI a
meeting of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant
"supporters" was transported back to some Mediterranean location in
the era between 50 BC and 50 AD?
Yes, that might be interesting.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Jack Linthicum
2006-09-03 22:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will in New Haven
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition
mob was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals.
Not entirely; there were German mobsters, and I believe some of "good
American stock."
Irish also, and not just the ones on the police force.
Will in New Haven
--
"I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world
to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but
unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and
thank Heaven He has put it in my power."
-Writings of Thomas Paine 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
WI a
meeting of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant
"supporters" was transported back to some Mediterranean location in
the era between 50 BC and 50 AD?
Yes, that might be interesting.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Could I recommend perusing this cite and picking one of th various
"conferences" for ISOTing?

http://www.onewal.com/maf-chr3.html

I kind of like this one...

1927 New York, Philadelphia,Atlantic City

Salvatore Lucania (Luciano),
Meyer Lansky,
Frank Costello,
Benjamin Siegel,
Joe Adonis,
Abner Zwillman,
Nucky Johnson, Waxey Gordon,
Nig Rosen,
Johnny Torrio

Under the guidance of Torrio, a number of Italian and Jewish
bootleggers combine forces in the Seven Group. The organization quickly
expands into Boston, Cleveland and Florida, providing a steady stream
of quality liquor, a minimum of violence and a maximum of profits. The
Seven Group functions almost entirely independent of the Mafia groups,
but Luciano is pressured to combine with the established Mafiosi in New
York.
Will in New Haven
2006-09-04 03:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Will in New Haven
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition
mob was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals.
Not entirely; there were German mobsters, and I believe some of "good
American stock."
Irish also, and not just the ones on the police force.
Will in New Haven
--
"I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world
to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but
unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and
thank Heaven He has put it in my power."
-Writings of Thomas Paine 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
WI a
meeting of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant
"supporters" was transported back to some Mediterranean location in
the era between 50 BC and 50 AD?
Yes, that might be interesting.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Could I recommend perusing this cite and picking one of th various
"conferences" for ISOTing?
http://www.onewal.com/maf-chr3.html
I kind of like this one...
1927 New York, Philadelphia,Atlantic City
Salvatore Lucania (Luciano),
Meyer Lansky,
Frank Costello,
Benjamin Siegel,
Joe Adonis,
Abner Zwillman,
Nucky Johnson, Waxey Gordon,
Nig Rosen,
Johnny Torrio
Under the guidance of Torrio, a number of Italian and Jewish
bootleggers combine forces in the Seven Group. The organization quickly
expands into Boston, Cleveland and Florida, providing a steady stream
of quality liquor, a minimum of violence and a maximum of profits. The
Seven Group functions almost entirely independent of the Mafia groups,
but Luciano is pressured to combine with the established Mafiosi in New
York.
They allied with the Mafia but most of them could not actually BECOME
Mafiosi. Obviously the Jews were excluded.* Of the Italians, only those
of Sicilian origin could be "made." Because of this, everyone's
favorite mobster, Capone, was not Mafia.

*I don't KNOW that they would have excluded Sicilian Jews.

Will in New Haven

--

"In the old neighborhood we found that you get farther with a kind word
and a gun than with a kind word alone." Attrib to Al Capone
Stan Boleslawski
2006-09-04 06:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Jack Linthicum wrote:> >
Post by Jack Linthicum
Could I recommend perusing this cite and picking one of th various
"conferences" for ISOTing?
http://www.onewal.com/maf-chr3.html
I kind of like this one...
1927 New York, Philadelphia,Atlantic City
Salvatore Lucania (Luciano),
Meyer Lansky,
Frank Costello,
Benjamin Siegel,
Joe Adonis,
Abner Zwillman,
Nucky Johnson, Waxey Gordon,
Nig Rosen,
Johnny Torrio
Under the guidance of Torrio, a number of Italian and Jewish
bootleggers combine forces in the Seven Group. The organization quickly
expands into Boston, Cleveland and Florida, providing a steady stream
of quality liquor, a minimum of violence and a maximum of profits. The
Seven Group functions almost entirely independent of the Mafia groups,
but Luciano is pressured to combine with the established Mafiosi in New
York.
They allied with the Mafia but most of them could not actually BECOME
Mafiosi. Obviously the Jews were excluded.* Of the Italians, only those
of Sicilian origin could be "made." Because of this, everyone's
favorite mobster, Capone, was not Mafia.
*I don't KNOW that they would have excluded Sicilian Jews.
The Sicilian Jewish population, IIRC, was expelled under the
same order from the Catholic Kings that expelled the Jews
from Spain. The Jewish population in late 19th/early 20th
century Siciliy was tiny ; the 1904 Jewish Encyclopedia
identified only 50 Jews living in Palermo at the time.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=30&letter=P

There were Sephardim who identified as "Sicilian" as their ancestors
had been kicked out in 1492, who were living in mainland
Italy, Turkey, and Greece.

http://www.dieli.net/SicilyPage/JewishSicily/JudaicaMessina1.html

Given as "Sicilian Jews" weren't living in Sicily (except for the
aforementioned 50) and thus their families were not vulnerable to
Mafia pressure back home, my guess is that they would have
been excluded from full membership in the Mafia.

IIRC, Capone was the only major US mobster who had
Camorra ties ; the organization of the syndicate dominated
by Luciano and the five families pretty much eliminated the
Camorra's existence as a separate entity in the US. Later
on, rules forbidding non-Sicilians were relaxed ; apparently
John Gotti's ancestry was Neapolitan, not Sicilian.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/gotti/life_2.html

Stan B.
Jack Linthicum
2006-09-04 12:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will in New Haven
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Will in New Haven
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those
communities end up in charge.
I am forced to again use the bottom "reply" button due to over
advertising by Google.
Contemplate this: in the late 1920s and early 1930s the Prohibition
mob was a loose confederation of Italian and Jewish criminals.
Not entirely; there were German mobsters, and I believe some of "good
American stock."
Irish also, and not just the ones on the police force.
Will in New Haven
--
"I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world
to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but
unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and
thank Heaven He has put it in my power."
-Writings of Thomas Paine 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Jack Linthicum
WI a
meeting of the "management" of several mobs with their attendant
"supporters" was transported back to some Mediterranean location in
the era between 50 BC and 50 AD?
Yes, that might be interesting.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Could I recommend perusing this cite and picking one of th various
"conferences" for ISOTing?
http://www.onewal.com/maf-chr3.html
I kind of like this one...
1927 New York, Philadelphia,Atlantic City
Salvatore Lucania (Luciano),
Meyer Lansky,
Frank Costello,
Benjamin Siegel,
Joe Adonis,
Abner Zwillman,
Nucky Johnson, Waxey Gordon,
Nig Rosen,
Johnny Torrio
Under the guidance of Torrio, a number of Italian and Jewish
bootleggers combine forces in the Seven Group. The organization quickly
expands into Boston, Cleveland and Florida, providing a steady stream
of quality liquor, a minimum of violence and a maximum of profits. The
Seven Group functions almost entirely independent of the Mafia groups,
but Luciano is pressured to combine with the established Mafiosi in New
York.
They allied with the Mafia but most of them could not actually BECOME
Mafiosi. Obviously the Jews were excluded.* Of the Italians, only those
of Sicilian origin could be "made." Because of this, everyone's
favorite mobster, Capone, was not Mafia.
*I don't KNOW that they would have excluded Sicilian Jews.
Will in New Haven
--
"In the old neighborhood we found that you get farther with a kind word
and a gun than with a kind word alone." Attrib to Al Capone
Why I cited that meeting was for the ISOT situation, wherein Jews may
be able to find contacts and even allies while the Italians may have
more trouble getting past their language and lack of ability to adjust
to the new situation.

Mike Uttley
2006-08-12 19:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
In the stories I've seen where communities (islands, naval vessels,
mining towns) are sent back in time, the Good Guys in those communities
end up in charge.
Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say to
Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?
some have already mentioned guns of the south by turtledove. i would
also point out that the isot series had both the good and bad guys sent
back. both walker's group and the do-gooders who wanted to save the
olmecs would count as bad guys. of course the good guys won but that is
not always the case with stirling.


i recall a short story altho not the name about a couple of romans who
were brought forward to the present. the moderns whon did so feared
they would be lost in the present. it turned out that the ancient
romans' hard-nosed realpolitik outlook served them very well in the
seamier side of the modern world which they disapeared into.
Ed Stasiak
2006-09-04 03:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Why aren't there stories in which it's Nazis who are sent back (say
to Germany shortly after Luther begins making waves)?
Sterling kinda does this in "Conquistador" but his bad guys
aren't really that bad, except for a few of them.
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