Discussion:
USA 2002 in 1942 ISOT: Part the Last
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Dave Knudson
2004-03-03 02:34:29 UTC
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USA ISOT 2002 to 1942 – Part the Last "The Postdam Conferences…"

Part A. Uniting Against the Other.

Berlin, March 1943 (March, 2003)

Heinz Guderian drew his heavy greatcoat about him as he hurried down
the street. A desultory, icy rain dribbled out of a gray sky onto
Berlin's equally gray rubble, coating Guderian and the other few
people out and about with a cold miasma of wetness. Guderian coughed
a bit, hunched over like an old man. He had not weathered the winter
well, after his capture, despite the relatively comfortable prison the
Americans had held him in.
A loud motor roared overhead, and Guderian looked up to see a
helicopter – he believed it to be of a type called ‘Blackhawk' by the
Americans – as it flew southwest. Presumably, it was carrying
attendees for the "Potsdam Conference" the Americans were hosting to
decide the fate of –
Of well, everything. The final surrender of the Third Reich on
January 1, 1943 coincided with Japan's decision to "end" their war –
the US-educated emperor and 2002 Japanese embassy staff (coupled with
US Special Forces operations that targeted the most die-hard of the
Japanese militarists) – proving sufficient to the cause.
Adolf Hitler was dead; if you believed the surviving members of the
bunker, he'd died fighting off the Americans until the last minute; if
you believed "CNN", he was shot by his own SS guards right before US
Delta Force operatives stormed the place. Guderian knew what he
believed; the Americans would have loved to put the man on trial with
the other Nazis at Nuremberg, and the SS (acting under orders from
Bormann or some other flunky) never would have allowed it.
The rubble was still piled high. The Battle of Berlin had proven to
be the most costly battle in terms of lives for the Americans – over
2,000 combat fatalities. Of course, of the 1.5 million defenders,
there was no accurate total on deaths. Suffice to say that number had
been in the hundreds of thousands. When initial American armored
probes into the city had been roughly handled, the US had backed off,
and sent in the USAF. B-52s, A-10s, F/A-18s, F-15s, F-16s, B-1B, B-2
Stealth; these were the litany of names that spelled death for Berlin
and the Nazis. And, after the idiocy of THULE, it was only strong
American pressure that kept Churchill from gassing the city.
Guderian arrived at his destination; a small dark door in a ruined
apartment block; no different than a thousand other blocks in ruined
Berlin. He knocked once, feeling the cold of the door even through
his glove. After a moment, the door opened, revealing a man dressed
in the latest Berlin fashion; filthy clothes. The man eyed Guderian,
and then beckoned with one hand. Guderian entered, and the man
glanced furtively down the length of the street before firmly shutting
and barring the door.
"You're late, General." The man said, picking up a lit candle, and
leading Guderian into the freezing gloom of the building.
A ghost of a smile touched Guderian's lips. "You are mistaken. The
name is simply Herr Guderian. There is no German Army any more, and
therefore, I could hardly be a General, could I?" Guderian laughed
briefly at his own joke. "As for the lateness, well, I apologize; the
Americans keep an eye on me now."
The man grunted, and continued to another door. This one led to a
stairway down, which Guderian followed to another door. The guide
knocked again, and a tiny hatch in the door opened. A pair of cold
blue eyes regarded both the guide and Guderian, before it closed, and
the door opened. The guide gestured again, and Guderian entered the
room.
A single naked bulb lit the interior – a former basement storeroom.
A rough wooden table and several chairs were in the room, along with
several men Guderian knew, if only by reputation. His eyes widened in
shock.
Guderian had been captured several months ago, and held in Hamburg,
after that city's fall. His American captors had treated him well
enough, but had been closed-mouthed about his eventual fate. They had
shared the original history with him, and he had read of the Nuremberg
War Crimes Tribunals set up in 1946. Now, the Americans had
reconvened it, and Guderian had been able to help it but to wonder if
he was slated for his own trial. However, two weeks ago, the
Americans had moved him to Berlin. Rather than a prison, they had put
him (with several other captured German civil and military
authorities) into a converted hotel. His daily movements were
unhindered, but he was told to be in the hotel by nightfall.
Yesterday, Guderian had gotten an odd message via a close-mouthed
hotel steward; a meeting at a certain location in Berlin at a certain
time, and his presence was requested. Guderian hadn't thought long;
he'd decided to attend it. There was always the chance that it was
some form of assassination attempt, but Guderian doubted it; besides
he was bored.
Now, Guderian faced several men in uniform. He recognized Bernard
Montgomery of Great Britain and General LeClerc of the French Army,
and knew General Crerar of the Canadian Army personally. He had never
met Marshall Koniev of the USSR or General Badgolio of Italy.
Additionally, he saw several others – presumably translators.
Guderian stood for a second looking at the various men in the room.
He hadn't known what to expect, and this certainly wasn't it. He
managed, however, to sound fairly composed. "Good afternoon,
Gentlemen. What can I do for you?"
Monty indicated a chair, and Guderian sat. All the military men did,
with translators close at hand. Guderian eyed all of the men. Koniev
and Monty glared with open hostility - at Guderian and each other -
while LeClerc and the Italian regarded Guderian with wariness.
Guderian could not imagine for the life of him what they were all
doing here together.
Koniev opened the conversation. "Are we secure here? Can the damned
Americans hear us?" The Soviet Marshall addressed the Canadian,
Crerar.
Crerar shrugged. "I don't think they can hear us. My men swept the
whole building and found nothing."
Monty chimed in. "Their listening devices are devilish, and tiny.
How can we be sure?"
Crerar shrugged again. "The man in charge of my team spent some time
at the Americans' CIA headquarters in Langley. He did get a chance to
view some of their – ‘Bugs' – they're called. He knows as well as
anyone from this time what they look like." Another shrug. "Besides,
the Americans haven't bugged the whole city, and they have had no
reason to come here. The rubble will muffle our sound, and no one
knows we're here."
LeClerc looked sour, but nodded at Crerar. "I think he's right. Our
best defense is that the Americans have no reason to suspect that we
are all here."
Guderian spoke. "And why gentlemen, are you here? More to the
point, why are any of us here?"
Monty looked at the German general, distaste in his eyes. "Because
of you, General. The Americans won't let you leave Berlin, and all of
us are here for the Potsdam Conference anyway, so this was the time
our governments decided that we should be here."
Stranger and stranger, thought Guderian, their governments are
sponsoring this little chat. Very strange, given the US troops
massing on the Soviet border, and that Canadian and British troops
were massing with them. There was every possibility that Koniev would
soon find himself at war with Montgomery and Crerar.
"Me?" asked Guderian. "Why me? I'm not even a general anymore.
Besides, I believe that the Americans have a slot reserved for me in
Nuremberg-"
"They don't." Crerar cut off Guderian. "Actually, the Americans do
have plans for you – but they aren't to put you in jail."
Guderian felt a wave of relief flow through him. He was careful not
to let it show. "Oh?"
"Actually, General, they have an offer to make you at the end of this
month." Montgomery spoke. He nodded at Crerar. "General Crerar and
I are privy to their plans. They intend to reconstitute a small
German Army, and plan to ask you to be in charge of it."
Guderian felt surprise again, and it showed. LeClerc smiled
humorlessly at him. "Yes, General. You. Apparently, in the original
history, you were in charge of the German Army in 1945, and had the
good sense to be sacked by Hitler, thus making you a ‘good guy' in
American eyes. Additionally, sir, you enjoy a reputation as a fine
field commander with the US military, so the Americans feel confident
you'll do here as well, in charge of what they're planning to call the
Bundeswehr. It will be quite limited in scope; from what we hear no
more than six divisions, but an army none the less."
Guderian felt a surge of different emotions run through him; relief,
pride, excitement, anticipation, and finally a bit of disappointment
at the Versailles-like limitation of the German Army. "I – I thank
you for sharing that with me, sir. But I still fail to see what it is
we are doing here."
Montgomery stood, and placed his hands behind his back. He paced for
a minute, and then looked at Guderian. "You have an advantage, sir,
that none of us do. Two of them, actually."
Guderian did not respond.
"You see, " Montgomery continued, "this new United States represents,
well, something no one else in the world is quite prepared to deal
with."
Guderian snorted. "Certainly I understand that. And I would point
out, I understand that as the target of this new United States,
something no one else here has been." Guderian didn't count the
Italian, Badgolio, or even look at him. Certainly Italy had not
suffered as Germany had.
"Yes, quite." Said Montogomery. "Yet, it seems that all of us share
one thing, General. A reorganization of the world order on terms not
of own making."
Guderian raised an eyebrow.
"Oh yes, " broke in LeClerc, "they certainly talk a good game. But
in the end, they have both carrots and the sticks, as it were. They
have technology beyond our dreams, and wealth to support it. Their
ideas are – are well, Alien, almost." LeClerc reached into a pouch,
and brought out a folded map. He spread it out on the table, and
Guderian recognized enough of the English on it to read the year –
2001 – and realize that it was from the future. Guderian's eyes
lingered over it; noting the truncation of Germany, and the breakup of
the USSR. "Look at this, " LeClerc continued, "the parts I've marked
in blue are the French Empire in 2001 – the parts in red, the
British". Guderian stared for a moment. These empires were gone;
only tiny bits around the world were left.
Montogomery spoke quietly. "This is the world they came from. A
world they dominated already as a ‘hyperpower'. This world-" he waved
a hand at the room and Berlin beyond – "they will not simply dominate
– they will own." The British general snorted. "They will not call
it ownership of course. They are very clear about that; they will not
expand the territory of the United States by even one square inch.
But that doesn't matter. Their culture, their technology, and their
businesses – they will rule. The next generation – wherever and to
whomever they are born – will be American."
"The attitude they have displayed most of all, General, is a kind of
condescending paternalism, with a dash of disapproval thrown in for
good measure. They are very polite – friendly even - and open about
their technology. But when it comes to sharing their marvelous
weapons, they have proven most reticent." Montgomery shrugged. "They
have an absolute monopoly on modern military equipment, and they show
no signs of sharing it any time soon."
The military disasters that had befallen Germany before the fall of
Berlin, and his personal fate afterwards, had dominated Guderian's
thoughts. He hadn't really considered the longer-term implications of
the arrival of the future United States. He knew their technology was
impressive, and, had come to realize that they had been supreme in the
world they came from. To hear them speak, Britain, France, and
Germany were allies – some might even say partners, albeit junior ones
– in an alliance called NATO. Russia was shattered – a dead empire of
declining population and importance. Japan was an economic
powerhouse, but a military pygmy, firmly subordinated to Washington.
Crerar spoke. "So that is what we face. The breakup of the European
empires, the universal rights of all people, regardless of race or
culture " LeClerc snorted at this, his eyes locked on Algeria on the
map. "and finally capitalism ruled from New York and Washington."
Guderian thought of shattered Germany. "I frankly don't see how this
impacts me or Germany. Or what you can do about it right now."
"Nothing. We can do nothing about this." LeClerc gave a Gallic
shrug. "They have power, we have none. We must go along with them."
He stared off at a point over the table. "For now."
Montogomery looked at the German. "You remember, Herr General, I
said you had two advantages over the rest of us?" Guderian nodded.
"Well, here's what they are. First, unlike all of us, your country
will have a large American military presence for quite some time to
come."
"I fail to see that as an advantage." said Guderian.
LeClerc smiled humorlessly. "But of course it is, General. Unlike
Germany's occupation of my country, the Americans do not intend to
loot Germany; primarily because you have nothing at all they would
want. No, they will secure the country, use it as a base to keep an
eye on Europe and the Middle East, eradicate the remains of the Nazi
government, and, with our help, establish a new government for
Germany."
Guderian's brow furrowed. "I thought this conference meant you were
their enemies now."
There was laughter, and then Montogomery spoke. "Only an idiot would
make themselves the Americans' enemy, General. No, we are not their
enemies. Merely – concerned – I would say, yes concerned about the
future. In no way would we oppose them openly."
"No general, not enemies. But back to that occupation. The
Americans intend to rebuild your country. Part of this is simply
sympathy on their parts, and that is how they portray it to their
press. However, a much more concrete reason is that the Americans
need a market for their goods, and a strong German – and European –
economy is the quickest way to that.
"No, General Guderian, we are not their enemies. However, the first
advantage of which spoke is this: The Americans intend to rebuild
Germany's Army from their own obsolete equipment. Older weapons and
vehicles removed their National Guard arsenals and such."
Guderian was silent for a moment while this sank in. "Surely they
will not give us anything that is dangerous to them-"
Montogomery was shaking his head. "Of course not, General. The
equipment you get is completely obsolete in their eyes – weapons and
vehicles scrounged from the bottoms of their arsenals from the 1960s
and 1970s, meant as a stop-gap while Germany's own industries recover.
Completely obsolete to them."
"Decades ahead of what we have." Said LeClerc softly.
Guderian stared. "Surely they are planning to equip you, their
allies with similar technology-"
"No." said Crerar. The Canadian shrugged. "They say that there's
no need; that war in the future will be eliminated or non-existent.
They recommend that we simply disband our militaries to invest in
upgrading our civilian economies. Needless to say, our elected
civilian leadership is happy with this, as are most people."
Koniev spoke. "Simply put, General, no matter what they give, you
won't be allowed to use it aggressively; firstly the German government
that the Americans are putting into place won't be like the Nazis at
all; secondly, they will maintain their own military to crush anything
you attempt."
"So, if I understand you gentlemen, Germany will have a small army
equipped by Americans capable of defeating any 1943 opponent, but not
allowed to do anything with it."
Nods all around. "And this were you come in, general." Said
Montgomery. "The two advantages; US military occupation of Germany,
and then a US-equipped German army will provide you with access to far
more military equipment than we. We want you to share that with us."
"I'm sorry?"
"We want you to actively and secretly share advanced American
technology with us."
Guderian was silent for a moment. "And even if I could, why should
I?" He stared at Koniev.
Crerar spoke. "You are of course familiar with the conference going
on down the way in Potsdam?" Guderian nodded, and the Canadian
continued. "The Americans are deciding, among other things, they face
of the new Europe. National boundaries, ethnic movements, and the
like. While the Americans are deciding these issues, it is odd that
they don't actually have much of a stake in them."
Guderian raised an eyebrow.
"Oh, to be sure, the Americans have their own domestic reasons to
care; ethnic voting blocs and the like." Montogomery said. "However,
in the end, no one domestic group can influence the Americans to the
extent that we can. Quite simply, the American State Department is
out of its time. It has no local experts, and their man in charge,
Mr. Powell, is relying on us to help dictate the terms of this new
Europe."
Understanding dawned on Guderian. "I see. And in return for my
agreement to this proposal, you will present a case favorable to
Germany?"
"Precisely."
Guderian furrowed his brow. "And why are there no diplomats here
now? Why are soldiers doing this?"
Koniev spoke. "A new and wonderful term our American friends have
taught us – plausible deniability. If this blows up on us – if the
Americans find out, then our governments just shrug, fire us, and say
‘we didn't know'".
Guderian frowned again. "I see." Guderian tried to buy time to
think. "Even if I were so inclined to accept, eventually I will have
to answer to a civilian authority."
Crerar spoke, "A difficult position, yes." The Canadian stood.
"However, I would think that the prospect of a Germany whose Eastern
border was not on the Oder would be sufficient."
Guderian stared at the Canadian. He knew the strings to pull to get
to Guderian. Then Koniev came into view, and Guderian's back
stiffened. "I'm very sorry, gentlemen, but I can not view sharing
advanced military equipment with Stalin. He is a lunatic as bad as
Hitler, and-"
Koniev burst out laughing. "Oh, my dear General Guderian, Comrade
Stalin does not know that I am here."
Guderian looked confused. "I thought that you said that the
governments-"
Montgomery gave an uncomfortable-sounding cough. "Marshall Koniev is
attending this conference at the behest of certain – elements – of the
Soviet government. Chairman Stalin is not aware that he is here."
Guderian's eyes widened a bit.
Montgomery continued. "As a matter of fact, General, we have reason
to believe that the Soviet Government may soon undergo a bit of an
evolution."
Koniev broke in. "You see, General, I watched the Americans' war
from Harwich, and I assure you that no sane man would defy them.
Comrade Stalin seems bent on a course of defiance, and the safety of
the revolution dictates that adjustments be made."
Guderian stared at Koniev, but addressed Montgomery. "I see. What,
precisely, are you prepared to offer?"

Part B. Leadership changes.
Potsdam, March, 1943 (2003).

Colin Powell was surprised at how well things were going. The
squabbling was to be expected of course, but the rough outline of
post-war Europe was emerging. The only real non-Soviet sticking point
was Poland. Powell was amazed at how – well, nice – to Germany the
French, British and Italians were being. The Poles were, predictably,
outraged at the idea of German retention of Silesia, and Powell didn't
know why their former allies, the British, were being so favorable to
Berlin.
The truth of the matter was, however, that Powell had little
attention for Poland. The Soviets were being completely intransigent,
and war was clearly brewing between the US-led allies, and the Soviet
Union.
The conference room was large, ornate and filled with delegates,
availing themselves of the refreshments the US security detachment
provided. There was quite a bit of milling about because, as usual,
the Soviet delegation was late. Powell didn't know if it was
grandstanding, simple stubbornness, or to try to convince others here
that the Soviets were a viable military power to compete with the
Americans. If so, it wasn't working. Not one country sided with
Moscow.
Powell was distressed at the absence of any Asian delegates. Asia
was a mess into itself, and a conference in Honolulu was planned for
July. It seemed the Chinese embassies – both of them – were up to
something, and Powell could only hope the CIA could keep a lid on it
while the US moved to stabilize Japan. Additionally, the hopes and
aspirations of Vietnam, Indonesia, and India were taking center stage
as 2002 citizens of those countries viewed the Imperial masters
through the lens of the 21st century.
Powell turned as a commotion arose behind him. General Buchanan, his
military liaison was speaking into a sat phone with tones that
indicated something was up. Buchanan looked up and said one word –
"Moscow" – quietly. Before Powell could inquire further, the door to
conference room opened, and the Soviet delegation entered. Something
in their manner made Powell look up.
Rather than moving to his seat, Molotov walked over to Powell
directly. A translator appeared with him. Powell looked at the
Soviet Foreign Minister.
Molotov cleared his throat. "I must ask for an indulgence sir."
"Oh?"
"Yes. I must request a temporary recess. It seems that there has
been some trouble in Moscow."
Powell frowned. "What kind of trouble?"
Molotov looked uncomfortable. "It seems that certain
counter-revolutionary elements of the Soviet internal security
services attempted a coup against the Center."
Powell raised both eyebrows.
Molotov continued. "The conspirators were of course defeated, but I
regret to say that they wreaked considerable havoc." A deep sigh. "I
must regretfully report that Chairman Stalin was killed in the
confusion."
It got very quiet in the American delegation. "I see," said Powell.
"I am in a difficult position sir, " Molotov continued, "and must ask
for a recess to consult the new leadership of my country."
"And who is in charge of the USSR?"
"General Georgi Zhukov has assumed the chair position until the
Politburo can convene."
"I see." Said Powell. "And you expect this will impact Soviet
positions on the issues we are discussing?"
"Yes."
Powell sighed. So even the Soviets were going to come on board.

Part C: Skip, the alien space bat.
Washington DC, April 1943 (April, 2003).

President Bush was in an upbeat mood as he entered the Oval Office
with Colin Powell. The Potsdam Conference was over, Stalin was dead,
and the economy was turning around. The strategic situation was
stabilizing-
Bush froze mid-stride at the sight of a monster behind his desk. It
was a huge bat-like beast, vaguely man-shaped, but with
leathery-looking black wings, and a demonic face. Glowing red eyes
regarded the US President from beneath a bony brow, and two horns at
least a foot long each sprang from the beast's forehead. It must have
been 9 feet tall, and had somehow managed to fit itself – and look
completely at ease while doing it – in Bush's chair, behind his desk,
with clawed talons/feet up and resting on the blotter on the desk.
A secret service agent caught sight of the beast, and drew a gun
while trying to leap to cover Bush. He froze – literally stopped all
movement – and hung suspended in mid-leap, in mid air. The agent's
eyes darted furiously as his brain to process the impossibility of
being suspended motionless in midair.
"Good Afternoon, Mr. President," the being spoke. His voice was
surprisingly mellow for such a huge and monstrous-looking being.
Later voice analysis by the NSA would suggest a lifetime spent in
Southern California.
Bush managed a croak. Both he and Powell were also immobile, though
Bush could at least speak.
"What's the matter sir, cat got your tongue?" The being asked.
"Who – who are you?
The being stood, and moved around to the front of the desk. He
smiled – a truly horrible sight – and spoke again. "My own name for
myself, you would find impossible to pronounce. However, for the
duration of this discussion, you may call me ‘Skip'."
"Skip?!?"
Skip shrugged massive shoulders. "It'll do for now. Besides, my
agent loves it."
Bush was trying to process what was happening, so Powell spoke. "Who
are you, Mr. Skip, and what do you want?"
Skip looked at the US SecState. "Just Skip, no ‘mister' needed.
Well, let's get the obvious out of the way. I'm an alien. As in, not
from this planet."
"Why can't we move, and how did you get in here?" Bush had found his
voice.
Skip stared at the US President. "Well, gosh, I would have thought
the whole ‘Alien' thing would have given you a clue that ‘hey, maybe
this guy Skip, in addition to his stunning good looks and suave sense
of style, has command of some technologies that we don't'"
Neither man spoke.
Skip placed his clawed hands behind his back, and wings, and sighed
deeply. "OK, clearly I have to make this simpler. First of all,
despite that fact that you can't move, and no one else will be coming
in here until I leave, all of the recording devices that monitor this
room, both visual and audio, are picking everything up. I figured
Powell would be enough to verify this little chat we're having, but
that should help. Secondly, I guess you've noticed the little
temporal displacement that took place a year or so ago?"
Bush stared blankly. "Huh?"
Skip closed his eyes and counted backwards from ten. "The US being
back in the 1940's – you recognized that?"
"Yes".
"Well, I represent the organization that was responsible for that
act."
Powell's face bulged with fury. "Do you have any idea of the damage
you've done, the lives you've shattered, the-"
Powell's voice shut off, and Skip waved one massive hand. "Gee, like
I care. Look, I'm acclimated pretty well, but let's not forget the
whole ‘Alien' thing I mentioned earlier. Completely different value
set, OK? Individual human lives don't mean squat to me, or those I
work with, and won't until you've earned it."
"Why? Why did you do this?" Bush asked.
Skip blinked rapidly. "Wow, an intelligent question. And just when
I thought all was lost. Well, that's why I'm here. To explain why.
And to assure you of something else. This will not happen again. No
more displacements. This is the world, now, and you're here to stay."
The alien blinked. "Or is until you bozos figure out how to do it on
your own, which ain't likely in the near future."
Skip sat down on a couch. He reached behind his back, and pulled out
a cigar. He struck a match against Bush's desk. He puffed several
times on the cigar, and then glanced at his three human visitors. "Do
you mind if I smoke – actually, who cares if you do mind? It's not
like you can stop me."
Skip leaned back, and crossed his legs. He inhaled on his cigar, and
blew a perfect smoke ring. "Ahhh. Nothing beats a Cuban." He
chuckled. "Cute trick with the Israelis down there. That got some
laughs, I gotta tell you. You should let Fidel try out for baseball."
He stared at the ceiling for a minute and then spoke.
"OK, clearly we're now past the whole ‘we're not alone in the
universe thing'. I mean, that was arrogant beyond belief. Also, I'm
not two million years old, so clearly FTL – you can as NASA what ‘FTL'
means – is possible, though probably not for you for a while." More
puffing on the cigar. There were no ashtrays in the Oval Office, and,
after glancing around for one for a moment, Skip shrugged and simply
flicked the ashes on to the carpet.
"One of the things we like about your species is your capacity to
dream – fantasize if you like. Now, let's face it, most of the
fantasies that aren't prurient sexual desires are religious
mumbo-jumbo and other superstition, but sometimes something
interesting comes out. Your capacity to believe in a universe beyond
what you can touch, but still governed by rationality. Rare, but
there."
Skip looked at them. "The universe, and all species in it are
governed by rational scientific laws, gentlemen. Humanity has
discovered some of these, but many more are out there. It is
believed, by my organization that in due course, Humanity would have
discovered those laws, made use of them, and – well, let's just say
become more than what you are now."
More puffing. "Now, I'm actually going somewhere with all of this
crap, believe me. There are other races out there, as should be
obvious to even you. Some of these have sets of cultural or racial
values that are completely different from your own. One of these
races is local, in a galactic sense of the word. And they know about
you."
"This race is, well, if you about them you would say that they are
vile. And hey, they are. They've also targeted you. They're not
overfond of competition, and your rate of scientific and cultural
advance is a whole lot faster than theirs. Additionally, for now at
least, they're more technically advanced. If left alone, we figure
you two would've blundered into each other at some point or another.
Predictions were that you'd win; believe it or not this other race can
be even more pig-headed than humans; but it would be a tough fight.
In the end, a war against that race, fought mostly in your solar
system, would've resulted in a politically unified Earth, with
technological development spurred by the conflict."
Bush and Powell still couldn't move, but the shock registered in
their eyes.
Skip waved his massive clawed hand, scattering more cigar ash over
the Oval Office. "Probably. Of course, maybe you'd just get your
butts kicked; and these guys put the gen in genocide, if you catch my
drift."
Skip scowled; a terrifying sight. "But something went wrong." More
puffing. "Certain – elements – of my organization decided, for a
variety of reasons I'm not gonna go into right now, that this other
species needed a leg up. They utilized this localized time-travel
capability we have to knock these guys back in time; not much, but
enough to make the odds from about 90-10 in your favor to more like
50-50. Part II of their little plan was to make that 50-50 about
10-90 against, but we intercepted that before it happened."
"What was that?" Powell could speak again.
Another dismissive wave from Skip. "Oh, they were gonna send some
lunatic from Tampa – Mike or Mark or something – it started with an
‘M'- back to 1942 instead. This loser is a Nazi sympathizer, and any
disruption there could have been awful. Oh, the Nazis weren't gonna
win, but enough advancement from this idiot, and your economic and
cultural development would have been slowed down. By the time we
caught up with this, the – let's call them entities – in question had
already started the time displacement procedure. We decided to kill
two birds with one stone, and simply equalize the earlier part of
their plan. Viola, you guys get a one-way ticket to 1942."
"Why didn't you simply reverse what had happened to this other
species, " asked Powell.
"Yeah, that would have been easier, and more moral, but hey, this was
already paid for, and a lot more fun. I gotta say" - Skip was
chuckling now – "that some of the things that have happened since you
got here have been a hoot. I mean, come on. The whole British Empire
is on the brink of collapse –Leonardo Di Caprio and Kate Winslet. And
who'd ever though the USSR would be brought low by – well, never
mind."
Powell was thinking of shattered lives, combat losses, aliens, and
rebuilding Europe. "You know, I don't think this has been funny at
all. In fact, I think that this whole childish attitude –" Powell's
mouth kept moving, but no sound came out.
Skip stood, and waved his arm with a certain airy indifference. "You
say Potato, I say Pototo. Look, I've already explained, I don't give
a crap." A deep draw on the almost-depleted cigar, and a sigh. "This
world is yours, gentlemen. Your particular nation state has the power
to do what it will. What you choose to do from now on out is entirely
up to you, but I might think that a little unity in the face of a
genocidely-inclined enemy to be a spur. We're out now; your destiny
is you own."
There was a flash of orange, and a bright light from Skip's eyes.
Bush, Powell, and the Secret Service agent all involuntarily closed
their eyes, and then they could move. Which was unfortunate, as the
agent's flight resumed, and he crashed into Bush. The Oval Office was
suddenly flooded with security as Bush and Powell looked around.
Apart from a small scent of brimstone, and a mostly used Cuban cigar
burning on the carpet, Skip was gone.

Thanks, it was a lot of fun.

Dave Knudson
Tristrim Murnane
2004-03-03 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
USA ISOT 2002 to 1942 – Part the Last "The Postdam Conferences…"
Part A. Uniting Against the Other.
Thank you :).
HAESSIG Frédéric Pierre Tamatoa
2004-03-03 07:03:25 UTC
Permalink
USA ISOT 2002 to 1942 - Part the Last "The Postdam Conferences."
powerhouse, but a military pygmy, firmly subordinated to Washington.
Crerar spoke. "So that is what we face. The breakup of the European
empires, the universal rights of all people, regardless of race or
culture " LeClerc snorted at this, his eyes locked on Algeria on the
Given Leclerc's actions in Cameroun, Chad and Indochina ( where he had
personnal contact with Uncle Ho and when his proposals were enough to tempt
Ho to stay within the french Union ), I think you are seriously
misinterpreting Leclerc's character here. I doubt he would have trouble with
universal rights ( he certainly ptoposed to extend this to Indochina ).

You may want to substitute another french general. Juin or Delattre, maybe,
for belivity's sake. Or Larminat, Giraud or Catroux...
The American
2004-03-03 20:00:11 UTC
Permalink
USA ISOT 2002 to 1942 - Part the Last "The Postdam Conferences."
Another dismissive wave from Skip. "Oh, they were gonna send some
lunatic from Tampa - Mike or Mark or something - it started with an
'M'- back to 1942 instead. This loser is a Nazi sympathizer, and any
disruption there could have been awful. Oh, the Nazis weren't gonna
win, but enough advancement from this idiot, and your economic and
cultural development would have been slowed down.
Hahahahaha...........
I love it!

Thank you for a very good read these past 2 years.

I hope someone can put all the parts together in one post.
I seem to be missing a few parts even after Googling.

Thanks again.

T.A.
T.J. Swoboda
2004-03-04 10:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by The American
I hope someone can put all the parts together in one post.
I seem to be missing a few parts even after Googling.
Ask and ye shall receive. ISOT haters, this Bud's for YOU! :P :P

... The wonderful gentlement at Google won't let me post it. I've
taken the liberty of putting it here:
http://www.geocities.com/tom_swoboda/ISOT.txt with credit to Dave of
course. If you want it taken down, Dave, just slap me... :)

--T.J.
The American
2004-03-04 15:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by T.J. Swoboda
Post by The American
I hope someone can put all the parts together in one post.
I seem to be missing a few parts even after Googling.
Ask and ye shall receive. ISOT haters, this Bud's for YOU! :P :P
... The wonderful gentlement at Google won't let me post it. I've
http://www.geocities.com/tom_swoboda/ISOT.txt with credit to Dave of
course. If you want it taken down, Dave, just slap me... :)
Thank you!!

T.A.
Dave Knudson
2004-03-04 19:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by T.J. Swoboda
Post by The American
I hope someone can put all the parts together in one post.
I seem to be missing a few parts even after Googling.
Ask and ye shall receive. ISOT haters, this Bud's for YOU! :P :P
... The wonderful gentlement at Google won't let me post it. I've
http://www.geocities.com/tom_swoboda/ISOT.txt with credit to Dave of
course. If you want it taken down, Dave, just slap me... :)
--T.J.
No slapping:-> Feel free to put it wherever you want.
T.J. Swoboda
2004-03-04 09:36:45 UTC
Permalink
***@minolta.com (Dave Knudson) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...
(snip)
Ugh, eh... [has heart attack] HOLY CRAP! The seventh seal is broken! It lives!

--T.J.
Dilbert Firestorm
2004-03-04 08:38:41 UTC
Permalink
great, a whacky alien space bat.

at least it explained this unauthrorized tranfer..... ;0
Athos
2004-03-04 17:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dilbert Firestorm
great, a whacky alien space bat.
at least it explained this unauthrorized tranfer..... ;0
Skip is great :) At last it all makes sense.

This has been a fun series thanks.

Pete
Duquense
2004-03-06 02:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athos
Post by Dilbert Firestorm
great, a whacky alien space bat.
at least it explained this unauthrorized tranfer..... ;0
Skip is great :) At last it all makes sense.
This has been a fun series thanks.
Pete
Great Time Line But What will the US do when the foreshadowed Chinese
invadesion of Japan [Formosa] happens. Mancharo, Korea.

This is post 9-11 so will the US move into Paskistan to prevent the
Pakistani
Preachers from destabiizing Algeria, & Libya.

So many unanswered Questions, Thats the Fun of theses TLs
T.J. Swoboda
2004-03-04 10:18:41 UTC
Permalink
***@minolta.com (Dave Knudson) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...
(gets done reading it)
Well done. Are you still going to do the 1942 USA surrounded by the
2002 world? IMO that wouldn't necessarily contradict your ending;
another other universe (with USA 1942 in 2002) could be a byproduct of
Skip's meddling. It would be a whole lot darker, though, and just
when you think things can't get any worse, a bunch of genocidal aliens
show up kill whoever's left.

Again, well done. Have a cigar!

--T.J.
RMG
2004-03-04 21:06:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by T.J. Swoboda
(gets done reading it)
Well done. Are you still going to do the 1942 USA surrounded by the
2002 world? IMO that wouldn't necessarily contradict your ending;
another other universe (with USA 1942 in 2002) could be a byproduct of
Skip's meddling. It would be a whole lot darker, though, and just
when you think things can't get any worse, a bunch of genocidal aliens
show up kill whoever's left.
Again, well done. Have a cigar!
--T.J.
I'd also like to see how the 1942 USA in 2002 does.
Mike Ralls
2004-03-05 23:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Knudson
Heinz Guderian drew his heavy greatcoat about him as he hurried down
the street.
I'm not sure of your choice for who the Americans pick to lead the new
German Army. Why not General Friedrich Olbricht and Count
Stauffenberg who actually did try to kill Hitler?
Post by Dave Knudson
the other Nazis at Nuremberg, and the SS (acting under orders from
Bormann or some other flunky) never would have allowed it.
Don't buy this. There was no such feeling in OTL when the end was
near. Basically it was up to Hitler weather he commited suicide or
faced trial.
Post by Dave Knudson
be the most costly battle in terms of lives for the Americans ? over
2,000 combat fatalities.
Cities are a meat grinder, but why so high?
Post by Dave Knudson
been in the hundreds of thousands. When initial American armored
probes into the city had been roughly handled,
How? The Germans wouldn't have had anything that could really hurt US
armor.
Post by Dave Knudson
have technology beyond our dreams, and wealth to support it. Their
ideas are ? are well, Alien, almost."
Not that bad. Extremely radical for 1942, but not unknown.
Post by Dave Knudson
LeClerc smiled humorlessly. "But of course it is, General. Unlike
Germany's occupation of my country, the Americans do not intend to
loot Germany; primarily because you have nothing at all they would
want.
LeClerc would probably know something about the OTL occupation, and
how the US didn't strip mine Germany's industry like the USSR would.
This happened primarily because the US hasn't really gone for looting
of defeated countries in the 20th century. Germany would have plenty
of famous works of arts and gold and jeweles and antiques, and other
things that would be of value to the US.
Post by Dave Knudson
advantage of which spoke is this: The Americans intend to rebuild
Germany's Army from their own obsolete equipment. Older weapons and
vehicles removed their National Guard arsenals and such."
This seems rather silly. Why not just buy up Britain's and France's
military surplus for a pitance, rather than give technology that they
wouldn't give to their allies.
Post by Dave Knudson
equipment you get is completely obsolete in their eyes ? weapons and
vehicles scrounged from the bottoms of their arsenals from the 1960s
and 1970s,
A lot of the information of those types of weapons and vehicles is
open knowledge in the 2002 US. The French and the British could just
have someone go into a bookstore with an extensive military selection
and probably find enough info to build such things themselves.

Hell, other technology too. It's not like the US can stop the flow of
published books to other countries.
Post by Dave Knudson
"No." said Crerar. The Canadian shrugged. "They say that there's
no need; that war in the future will be eliminated or non-existent.
A War To End All War? I don't see Bush making any such a statement.
At the very least the US knows that there will be trouble in China,
and in decolonization.

Besides, French and British troops, with a few prop ups, would make
good security and occupational troops for any future conflict.
Post by Dave Knudson
They recommend that we simply disband our militaries
I don't see this happening either. The US wants strong allies, not
completly dependent ones.
Post by Dave Knudson
Quite simply, the American State Department is
out of its time.
But equiped with uptime knowledge. A bunch of historians could be
rounded out who would probably know more about any given situation
than any contemporary would.
Post by Dave Knudson
Koniev burst out laughing. "Oh, my dear General Guderian, Comrade
Stalin does not know that I am here."
Koniev would not laugh at this. He is risking serious death by being
here.
Post by Dave Knudson
Comrade Stalin seems bent on a course of defiance,
Stalin was extremly risk averse.
Post by Dave Knudson
July. It seemed the Chinese embassies ? both of them ? were up to
something, and Powell could only hope the CIA could keep a lid on it
while the US moved to stabilize Japan.
I think he'd be more worried about stabilizing China than Japan. The
US _knows_ that the occupation of Japan went succesffuly in OTL and it
also knows what happened in China. Making sure Mao doesn't come to
power and that Chiang stabelizes his regime is probably the biggest
concern in Asia.
Post by Dave Knudson
Molotov continued. "The conspirators were of course defeated, but I
regret to say that they wreaked considerable havoc." A deep sigh. "I
must regretfully report that Chairman Stalin was killed in the
confusion."
Stalin was also REALLY good at sniffing out conspericies and keeping a
hold on power.
Post by Dave Knudson
with Colin Powell. The Potsdam Conference was over, Stalin was dead,
and the economy was turning around.
I think the economy would still be in the toilet. The US's extrenal
market is gone, and a lot of what it produces will be too expensive
for anybody but the US to buy. The economic disruption would be too
immense to be cleared up in a little over a year and a half. I'd
expect the five to ten years to be one of depreshion.
Post by Dave Knudson
Later voice analysis by the NSA would suggest a lifetime spent in
Southern California.
Any significance to this?
Post by Dave Knudson
Skip shrugged massive shoulders. "It'll do for now. Besides, my
agent loves it."
Agent, hmm? I've always thought ASB's did things for what we would
call, "entertainment purposes."
Post by Dave Knudson
room, both visual and audio, are picking everything up. I figured
Powell would be enough to verify this little chat we're having, but
that should help.
Some. But I just saw an army of Orks the other day on TV. I could
easily see a lot of people saying Skip was made by ILM.
Post by Dave Knudson
temporal displacement that took place a year or so ago?"
Bush stared blankly. "Huh?"
Hmmm . . . I think Bush could make the conection between "temporal
displacement" and what happened fairly easily.
Post by Dave Knudson
And to assure you of something else. This will not happen again. No
more displacements. This is the world, now, and you're here to stay."
Interesting. Good for the world to know, really.
Post by Dave Knudson
fantasies that aren't prurient sexual desires are religious
mumbo-jumbo and other superstition,
The aethists are going to have a field day with this statement.
Post by Dave Knudson
discovered those laws, made use of them, and ? well, let's just say
become more than what you are now."
New Agers will have a field day with this statement.
Post by Dave Knudson
"This race is, well, if you about them you would say that they are
vile. And hey, they are. They've also targeted you. They're not
overfond of competition, and your rate of scientific and cultural
advance is a whole lot faster than theirs.
If they know about earth, and have targeted it, why don't they attack
soon?
Post by Dave Knudson
If left alone, we figure
you two would've blundered into each other at some point or another.
Blundered implies that it would have been an accident and that seems
in contrast with the Vileguys knowing and targeting Earth.
Post by Dave Knudson
Predictions were that you'd win; believe it or not this other race can
be even more pig-headed than humans;
Hmm . . I interpret this as that they are more ridged. Combined with
slower technological growth that makes sense. And it'll also be
useful info.
Post by Dave Knudson
system, would've resulted in a politically unified Earth, with
technological development spurred by the conflict."
I've always said that about the only thing that could unite all of
humanity would be a war with another species.
Post by Dave Knudson
species needed a leg up. They utilized this localized time-travel
capability we have to knock these guys back in time; not much, but
enough to make the odds from about 90-10 in your favor to more like
50-50.
Hmmm . . . I wonder if they got knocked back just in 2002 USA in 1942,
or also in 1942 USA in 2002. If the later, then 1942 USA in 2002 is
pretty much hosed.
Post by Dave Knudson
disruption there could have been awful. Oh, the Nazis weren't gonna
win, but enough advancement from this idiot, and your economic and
cultural development would have been slowed down.
Hmmm . . . I fail to see how. If the Allies still win, then that
means that whatever technological goodies the Nazis gained from Mike
would become useful to the Allies.
Post by Dave Knudson
And who'd ever though the USSR would be brought low by
A PBS documentary?
Post by Dave Knudson
Powell was thinking of shattered lives, combat losses, aliens, and
rebuilding Europe. "You know, I don't think this has been funny at
all. In fact, I think that this whole childish attitude ?"
Powell's a diplomat. After the Alien had shown his power and shut him
up once I think he'd start being, you know, diplomatic.
Post by Dave Knudson
Thanks, it was a lot of fun.
It was. Thanks.

Best wishes,
Mike
Nopporn Wongrassamee
2004-03-06 00:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
Later voice analysis by the NSA would suggest a lifetime spent in
Southern California.
Any significance to this?
Post by Dave Knudson
Skip shrugged massive shoulders. "It'll do for now. Besides, my
agent loves it."
Agent, hmm? I've always thought ASB's did things for what we would
call, "entertainment purposes."
I think at least this ASB is a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff
Angel. The latter featured a character who was an agent of a higher power.
The character was a demon named Skip.

Coincidence?


- Nopporn Wongrassamee

Homepage: http://hometown.aol.com/evilauthor/myhomepage/index.html
Dave Knudson
2004-03-06 15:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nopporn Wongrassamee
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
Later voice analysis by the NSA would suggest a lifetime spent in
Southern California.
Any significance to this?
Post by Dave Knudson
Skip shrugged massive shoulders. "It'll do for now. Besides, my
agent loves it."
Agent, hmm? I've always thought ASB's did things for what we would
call, "entertainment purposes."
I think at least this ASB is a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff
Angel. The latter featured a character who was an agent of a higher power.
The character was a demon named Skip.
Coincidence?
- Nopporn Wongrassamee
Homepage: http://hometown.aol.com/evilauthor/myhomepage/index.html
Geeks of the world unite. I thought I was being sub-tile with the name there.

Dave Knudson
Stefan Diekmann
2004-03-06 19:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
been in the hundreds of thousands. When initial American armored
probes into the city had been roughly handled,
How? The Germans wouldn't have had anything that could really hurt US
armor.
Abrams, maybe. But they could knock off the tracks. And Bradlys aren't
better armored than WWII tanks. And don't forget mines or preplaced
exposives. What about mortar hits and anti-tank rifles fired from the top of
buildings, could they penetrate the roof of an Abrams?
And even an armored probe would have infantry and HUMVEEs, and they can be
hit. I don't see why the US would push ahead so fast that advanced units can
be pushed back before follow up units can destroy the resistance, but I
guess it's possible. Still, it'd be more likely that they've to fall back
because they've spend too much ammo and need to rearm.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
have technology beyond our dreams, and wealth to support it. Their
ideas are ? are well, Alien, almost."
Not that bad. Extremely radical for 1942, but not unknown.
I dunno. Gay marriage is a hot topic, and that's not on the agenda in 42.
And that's a topic likely to resonate a lot with the military, and since
these are all military men, I think the formulation is okay.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
advantage of which spoke is this: The Americans intend to rebuild
Germany's Army from their own obsolete equipment. Older weapons and
vehicles removed their National Guard arsenals and such."
This seems rather silly. Why not just buy up Britain's and France's
military surplus for a pitance, rather than give technology that they
wouldn't give to their allies.
Full agreement here.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
"No." said Crerar. The Canadian shrugged. "They say that there's
no need; that war in the future will be eliminated or non-existent.
A War To End All War? I don't see Bush making any such a statement.
At the very least the US knows that there will be trouble in China,
and in decolonization.
Besides, French and British troops, with a few prop ups, would make
good security and occupational troops for any future conflict.
I can't think any human with some intelligence make a statement like that.
Though I'm certain there are many voices in the US that will say that, many
university professors have a rather distant connection to reality and will
voice such oppinions. But I can't see any government accept that, especially
with the history books showing how violent the future was.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
They recommend that we simply disband our militaries
I don't see this happening either. The US wants strong allies, not
completly dependent ones.
Actually it does sound like the oppinion of quite a few members of the
academia...
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
Quite simply, the American State Department is
out of its time.
But equiped with uptime knowledge. A bunch of historians could be
rounded out who would probably know more about any given situation
than any contemporary would.
And perhaps more importantly, the historians wouldn't have a direct sake in
the outcome - they'd be more objective.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
Comrade Stalin seems bent on a course of defiance,
Stalin was extremly risk averse.
Yes, but does he see another way? He personally is hated in America. There
are many appologists for the system of the USSR, but few for his persona.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
July. It seemed the Chinese embassies ? both of them ? were up to
something, and Powell could only hope the CIA could keep a lid on it
while the US moved to stabilize Japan.
I think he'd be more worried about stabilizing China than Japan. The
US _knows_ that the occupation of Japan went succesffuly in OTL and it
also knows what happened in China. Making sure Mao doesn't come to
power and that Chiang stabelizes his regime is probably the biggest
concern in Asia.
Either Chiang, or splitting up China so that they'll negotiate from a
superior position with each of them in decades (centuries) to come. And to
assure that the US is the most populus country, so they can justify the
cultural domination. Smaller countries would also make China's neighbours
less afraid which may create a better diplomatic situation in all of Asia.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
with Colin Powell. The Potsdam Conference was over, Stalin was dead,
and the economy was turning around.
I think the economy would still be in the toilet. The US's extrenal
market is gone, and a lot of what it produces will be too expensive
for anybody but the US to buy. The economic disruption would be too
immense to be cleared up in a little over a year and a half. I'd
expect the five to ten years to be one of depreshion.
You forget the huge trade deficit - nothing there to import anymore, if you
want it, it has to be manufactured domstically. That creates many
opportunities for new businesses and more employment. Then there's the
expansion of the military by what? A million men? Uniforms and personal
weapons for them alone would be huge contracts - then take tanks, aircraft,
etc, and you're talking about huge expansions of those industries. Since
this started within days of the transfere, the economy would already feel
many of the benefits.
Then there's the space industry. The TV companies really want to get sats up
again, so does the military. Recon, communication, GPS, ...
All of them have to be produced, and then there's the need for rockets to
take it up - rockets that also need to be produced.
Then there's the huge demand for modern equipment, from simple computers to
industrial robots accross the globe - from US companies opening local
subsidiaries.
And there's a boon for the US economy not yet mentioned - the foreign owned
debt is gone. No need to service it anymore. Indeed, the US is a creditor
again. This allows a lot more money to be invested, even before taxes are
increased.
I'd say the US economy is changing fast and violently, but it's not
necessarily weak or bad. WWII meant a boom for the US - somewhat clever
policy will mean the same again.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
room, both visual and audio, are picking everything up. I figured
Powell would be enough to verify this little chat we're having, but
that should help.
Some. But I just saw an army of Orks the other day on TV. I could
easily see a lot of people saying Skip was made by ILM.
Agreed. But he says there won't be another displacement. Many people will be
looking for even a little reassurance and want to believe that it's the
truth.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
temporal displacement that took place a year or so ago?"
Bush stared blankly. "Huh?"
Hmmm . . . I think Bush could make the conection between "temporal
displacement" and what happened fairly easily.
Especially since the phrase was likely used millions of times in the last
year when discussing the event.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
And to assure you of something else. This will not happen again. No
more displacements. This is the world, now, and you're here to stay."
Interesting. Good for the world to know, really.
Essential, I'd say. Without it you'd have a breakdown of international trade
and travel for the next century at least. Nobody'd be willing to get caught
on the false side of the border when the next event takes place.
Indeed I'd expect there to be a lot of people demanding the soldiers be
braught home before they're cut of from the homeland...
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
fantasies that aren't prurient sexual desires are religious
mumbo-jumbo and other superstition,
The aethists are going to have a field day with this statement.
Would they really want to assosiate themselves with someone who doesn't care
how much emotional damage he's done to millions of people? After some of the
comments Skip may become the most hated person in America...
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
discovered those laws, made use of them, and ? well, let's just say
become more than what you are now."
New Agers will have a field day with this statement.
Simply the knowledge that there are ways to control travel through time in
detail, and that FTL is possible will have a huge impact - and the statement
is too ambiguous to have too much consequence.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
"This race is, well, if you about them you would say that they are
vile. And hey, they are. They've also targeted you. They're not
overfond of competition, and your rate of scientific and cultural
advance is a whole lot faster than theirs.
If they know about earth, and have targeted it, why don't they attack
soon?
Well, I'd assume targetted in the form that we're in the way of their
current expansion plans, or at least exploration projects. Maybe not the
clearest word to use, but I don't think Skip wanted to be clear - playing a
few mind games wouldn't be beyond him.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
Predictions were that you'd win; believe it or not this other race can
be even more pig-headed than humans;
Hmm . . I interpret this as that they are more ridged. Combined with
slower technological growth that makes sense. And it'll also be
useful info.
Yes, but it also means that they're currently already far more advanced and
have had a long time to establish signifficant space infrastructure and
maybe even several developed colonies. That means they'll have signifficant
resource advantages.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
system, would've resulted in a politically unified Earth, with
technological development spurred by the conflict."
I've always said that about the only thing that could unite all of
humanity would be a war with another species.
Maybe - there'd still be some fanatics that don't agree..
And I'm not certain, but I think the US in this scenario might well have
established a system that'd have brought the world together.
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
disruption there could have been awful. Oh, the Nazis weren't gonna
win, but enough advancement from this idiot, and your economic and
cultural development would have been slowed down.
Hmmm . . . I fail to see how. If the Allies still win, then that
means that whatever technological goodies the Nazis gained from Mike
would become useful to the Allies.
He didn't say anything of technological development - cultural and economic.
A vastly more destructive war costing millions of additional lives - say
lengthening the war by a year with the holocaust, nuclear devastation of
most of Japan, Japan occupied China and Korea, and the death of a million or
so US soldiers (say by invading Japan through ground zero of the nukes)
would likely have those consequences.
I find it hard that any person could make that much difference unless
they've prepared themselves for it for a long time and have photographic
memory, but hey! Who cares?
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
Powell was thinking of shattered lives, combat losses, aliens, and
rebuilding Europe. "You know, I don't think this has been funny at
all. In fact, I think that this whole childish attitude ?"
Powell's a diplomat. After the Alien had shown his power and shut him
up once I think he'd start being, you know, diplomatic.
Agreed. Diplomates have to be slick as Slimer, and he (well the whole US
administration in the story) acts stupid quite often. As such I think it's
internally consistent. Not that it makes it any better...

Stefan
Mike Ralls
2004-03-05 23:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Knudson
to do what it will. What you choose to do from now on out is entirely
up to you, but I might think that a little unity in the face of a
genocidely-inclined enemy to be a spur. We're out now; your destiny
is you own."
Well, the actual TL is over but that doesn't stop us from
hypothosizing what comes next.

OK, besides the US being back in 1943, the biggest change is that
1) Humanity knows it is not alone in the universe.
2) Humanity knows that it will eventually get involved in a war with
Aliens will mean the extinction of the human race.

These will have pretty big impacts.

Now, I can't see the war happening for at least a century, because
(guessing here) any civilization that could cross stars could probably
easily kill us before then without much of a sweat. So the threat's
probably a long term threat rather than an emmediate threat.

Still, things look to be going pretty good. Europe and Japan will go
democratic and Zhukov will probably pull off a "China" where he
modernizes the Soviet economy while keeping up the represhion. The
advanced technology will be a huge spur. Basically I expect Europe
and Japan to have Tiger economies within 5 years to a decade that will
keep expanding until they (eventually, probably in 40 years or so)
catch up with the US.

Europeans will probably have firmer control of their empires than in
OTL ("Hmm . . it looks like this chap caused us a bunch of trouble in
ten years, best to be safe.") while simultaniously be under heavy US
preasure to modernize and democratize their collonies.

With the knowlege of how disasterously many of the third world
ideologies turned out, and what leaders made themselves dictators, we
can probably expect them to do much better than OTL.

If by that time the USSR has also democratized, we're looking at a
pretty nice world.

The big question is China though. My guess is that US support helps
Chiang kill Mao, but that China doesn't modernize nearly as much as
Taiwan did.

The US economy will adjust to this world after five to ten years or
so. Technological advance will be slowed greatly, but it will still
happen and speed up as time progreses.

With the threat of invaders, space is likely to have a HUGE increase
in investment over OTL. Perhaps the US pays Australia to allow it to
set of Orions in the outback (or some other country) before satelites
are very numerous again?

Thoughts?

--
Mike Ralls
Paul Melville Austin
2004-03-06 01:40:36 UTC
Permalink
i like that Germany keeps Silesia
Stefan Diekmann
2004-03-06 16:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ralls
Post by Dave Knudson
to do what it will. What you choose to do from now on out is entirely
up to you, but I might think that a little unity in the face of a
genocidely-inclined enemy to be a spur. We're out now; your destiny
is you own."
Well, the actual TL is over but that doesn't stop us from
hypothosizing what comes next.
OK, besides the US being back in 1943, the biggest change is that
1) Humanity knows it is not alone in the universe.
2) Humanity knows that it will eventually get involved in a war with
Aliens will mean the extinction of the human race.
These will have pretty big impacts.
Perhaps even more important, they'll know such displacements won't happen
again. That's perhaps more important than anything else. Without that bit of
information there'd be a strong movement to close all borders as tightly as
possible. No tourism aboard, no investing money in other countries that
might simply disappear, no buying products produces in another country, etc.
The consequences of that aren't hard to imagine.
Post by Mike Ralls
Now, I can't see the war happening for at least a century, because
(guessing here) any civilization that could cross stars could probably
easily kill us before then without much of a sweat. So the threat's
probably a long term threat rather than an emmediate threat.
I'm not certain - a lot depends on how FTL drives work. Given enough
resources we could build some combat spacecraft within a few years. If you
assume that FTL are huge expensive engines requiring vast ships but leaving
little volume and mass to weapon systems and they only work in very low
gravities (say whatever gravity is 20AU from our sun) we could stop them
with as little as five years of preparation.
The fact that the species is less creative and more pigheaded than we also
suggests that their designs are less efficient than their technology would
allow. The same guidelines may also have caused imbalanced technologic
advance - they have FTL drives, but we may already be more advanced in some
other areas.
Post by Mike Ralls
Still, things look to be going pretty good. Europe and Japan will go
democratic and Zhukov will probably pull off a "China" where he
modernizes the Soviet economy while keeping up the represhion. The
advanced technology will be a huge spur. Basically I expect Europe
and Japan to have Tiger economies within 5 years to a decade that will
keep expanding until they (eventually, probably in 40 years or so)
catch up with the US.
Would that happen? The knowledge that there are aliens and they're really
out to get us would change the political and economic landscape
dramatically. No more Japanese and German independence. Independent
colonies? Forget it, we need central authority to build a global military
machine unprecedented in history.
I'd expect a more or less forceful unification of the major powers - some
combination between the US constitution and the EU I would think - but for
sure only one official language, which'll be essential for a unified
military! This'd weaken the European economies, since they'd be in strong
competition with their colonies from the beginning and lessen the options
the governments have to develop the infrastructure. Still, they'll improve,
but I doubt they'll ever catch up - It'd be a lot like the South in the US,
they get better, but will always be lacking behind, or at least for
centuries.
Post by Mike Ralls
Europeans will probably have firmer control of their empires than in
OTL ("Hmm . . it looks like this chap caused us a bunch of trouble in
ten years, best to be safe.") while simultaniously be under heavy US
preasure to modernize and democratize their collonies.
Without the alien threat, yes. But with the need to build the strongest
possible military I don't think the US would like a weakening of existing
structures - at least until new structures (preferable US controlled ones)
are in place. An indifference of US leaders combined with PR campaigns about
the positive aspects of the Empires in the trying times ahead (and the
failures of decolonization in the last timeline) will reduce decolonization
pressure below what it was OTL.
We'd more likely see pressure to expand the US - Cuba and Canada into the
union? Let the PIs be independent or bring them in? Occupy or annex Germany
and Japan? Special relation with UK, or united government?
Post by Mike Ralls
With the knowlege of how disasterously many of the third world
ideologies turned out, and what leaders made themselves dictators, we
can probably expect them to do much better than OTL.
If by that time the USSR has also democratized, we're looking at a
pretty nice world.
The big question is China though. My guess is that US support helps
Chiang kill Mao, but that China doesn't modernize nearly as much as
Taiwan did.
Another option would be to divide China into several/many smaller entities
and ally with local leaders preventing any united government. This'd reduce
the danger China represents for the peaceful development of the world, as
any single of the smaller states could be dealt with pretty easy, especially
if there are one or two that are very close to the US.
On a related note - what'll happen with Formosa? I don't think it'll be left
with Japan. But with the history (it's known to develop very well) and the
need to build a military force, it might become part of the US - having a
major home base this close to many potential trouble spots would be very
desirable for the military and the government.
Post by Mike Ralls
The US economy will adjust to this world after five to ten years or
so. Technological advance will be slowed greatly, but it will still
happen and speed up as time progreses.
I don't see either.
Why the weak economy? There's lot s of trouble, but also lots of immediate
demand. Look at the US trade deficit, all those products now have to be
produced at home (it'll take significantly longer to build factories
oversea, especially with the war). That means a major boom for the
construction industry. Major as in we can't hope to find enough workers to
begin your project next year.
Then there'll be major demand for industrial machines around the world. US
factories will for years to come be the only source and will work around the
clock, needing to do a lot of hiring. Manufacturing will experience a boom
unlike before in history in the US.
Then there are a lot of components that are needed for weapons, space craft,
and other tools that aren't at the moment produced in the US - I'd expect
there to be enough risk capital to fund many new companies specializing in
providing those parts. It'll take years until anyone outside the US is
experienced enough in handling computers and sterile production environments
required for many special products.
I'd expect a very strong economy with few unemployed for the coming years -
with very high military/space budgets decades. Certainly no boom economy as
usual - there'll be some bankruptcies and layoffs at many companies, but I'd
expect the overall tendencies to be very good. And that's without the
excellent opportunities US workers will have in Canada, UK, and many other
countries.

As to technical progress - it will slow, but why slow greatly? Certainly a
lot of research in progress has been lost, but little actual knowledge was
lost. The transplaced area is large and important enough to hold data
backups from around the world. So R&D can continue at about the same point
it stood before the event.
And for speed of progress - universities are one driving force in R&D. I
don't see any cuts here. NASA, DOE, and DOD are the major sources of public
R&D. They'll experience a boom after Skips visit - a boom that might even
surpass WWII spending booms. That'll make good a lot of losses in other
areas.
That leaves the private industry. They may cut R&D spending - but will they?
Their main competition for the world market is now in the US only - that
means on about the same technical level they are. They need every advantage
for competition here. And while expansion overseas will cost a lot of money
I think there will be little slowdown here either.
That leaves the R&D that happened overseas. It will take a long time for the
rest of the world to catch up in high tech, but their laboratories could
begin a lot of R&D within a few weeks, and there'll be a lot of companies
taking advantage of the low costs overseas to do some research there.
Especially with the largest research project in history going on -
developing, testing, and building a space fleet.
Development will be focused on space/military tech for a decade or two, but
I wouldn't call that a slowdown.
Post by Mike Ralls
With the threat of invaders, space is likely to have a HUGE increase
in investment over OTL. Perhaps the US pays Australia to allow it to
set of Orions in the outback (or some other country) before satelites
are very numerous again?
No. There are other ways to use nuclear propulsion in space - though we can
expect nuclear tipped missiles and resumption of nuclear testing by the US.
What we can expect are several additional space centers across the world to
handle the huge demand of space lift for the next decades. Expect every
scheme for cheap space launch to be funded as the US rushes to establish a
permanent moon base (with gravity preventing the loss of bone mass crews can
stay off Earth for much longer periods and working will be less risky and
strange than in space (no chance to fly away...). As such I'd expect the
moon to become the major base in the system and location of fleet HQ - as
well as the center for astronomy. Expect very hard guidelines about light
pollution.
We'll certainly see an explosion of sf movies. I'd expect the next decade at
least to be dominated by science fiction and other space set movies, though
time travel and the consequences of the temporal displacements will be
strong second and third place settings. Historic documentations will also
make a comeback, especially since they'll tell tales set in a potential
future for most of the audience.
Post by Mike Ralls
Thoughts?
One last thought - time keeping. There'll be many problems with saying it's
1942 again. That's one issue that hasn't gained enough attention - leaving
aside the confusion it'll create among school children, or humans in
general, there's the question of computers that'll flip if you tell them
it's now thirty years before they were build. And the event was certainly
huge enough (the US is now well over 10% world population) that a new system
should be introduced. If AD wouldn't stand for anno domino I'd say after
displacement, but I think such a system should be established. Maybe AC -
after contact.
The areligious nature and lack of cultural significance would allow it to be
adopted globally without accepting a culture as dominant like accepting the
Christian calendar would mean.

Stefan
Dilbert Firestorm
2004-03-07 04:11:18 UTC
Permalink
I'd been wondering about something regarding the U.S. economy....
foreign corporate ownership in the U.S....

there are quite a few foreign corporate presence in the U.S. some got
there by establishing a presence.
Others by way of coporate take overs (hostile or freindly) and mergers.

now some of those companies that existed in 2002 do not exist in 1942.
I can only think of one of them. nokia for example.

there were all these foreign-U.S. mergers that took place prior to 2002,
one example, Daimler-Chrysler. such corporations like them had HQs
outside U.S., so what's become of those "lost" corporate assets in this
case?
James Gassaway
2004-03-07 19:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dilbert Firestorm
I'd been wondering about something regarding the U.S. economy....
foreign corporate ownership in the U.S....
there are quite a few foreign corporate presence in the U.S. some got
there by establishing a presence.
Others by way of coporate take overs (hostile or freindly) and mergers.
now some of those companies that existed in 2002 do not exist in 1942.
I can only think of one of them. nokia for example.
there were all these foreign-U.S. mergers that took place prior to 2002,
one example, Daimler-Chrysler. such corporations like them had HQs
outside U.S., so what's become of those "lost" corporate assets in this
case?
I would think that if they were large enough, they would continue on.
Probably keep the same names and such but either now be owned solely by the
those in the US who owned stock in it or would issue new stock via the US
stock exchanges to replace the lost shares.
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
Peter Bruells
2004-03-07 21:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Gassaway
I would think that if they were large enough, they would continue
on. Probably keep the same names and such but either now be owned
solely by the those in the US who owned stock in it or would issue
new stock via the US stock exchanges to replace the lost shares.
Hmmm... I'd think that these assets should be used to re-imburse
Americans and foreign nationals who lost their oversea assets.

By the way, I couldn't follow the complete timelime? What happends to
foreign residents in the displaced USA? Do they get offered green
cards or even citizienship?

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