Discussion:
Decades of Darkness Interlude #4: The Main Frankfurt
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Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-21 12:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Decades of Darkness Interlude #4: The Main Frankfurt

Thanks to William Baird and Faeelin for inspiring this...

* * *

6 August 1952,
Frankfurt-on-Main,
German Reich

As Michelle enters the terminal, the woman in the blue uniform and smart
white cap announces, in German, "Welcome to Otto von Bismarck International
Skyport, my lords, ladies, and gentlemen. First-class passengers, please
progress to luggage collection and customs clearance to your left.
Regular-class passengers, please form a line on the right."

The announcer starts to repeat the message in Yankee-accented English as
Michelle moves past. Her new husband keeps pace with her as they collect
their luggage, using one of the same wheeled trolleys that are ubiquitous in
Australian skyports, and then they reach the brief queue for customs
clearance.

When their turn comes, Michelle and her husband try to step forward
together, but the customs officer holds up one finger. After a glance at
her husband, Michelle comes forward first, handing across her passport and
visa folded inside.

The customs officer looks inside the passport, nods at the visa, then says,
"Guten Middag, Frau Doktor Professor Kelvin. Purpose of visit?"

"Honeymoon," Michelle says. "With my husband," she adds unnecessarily, but
she likes saying that word. Husband.

At that, the customs officer waves her husband forward, and extends his hand
for that passport, too. "Guten Middag... ah, Baron von Kelvin."

Andrew smiles, no doubt pleased by the complimentary but incorrect von.

The customs officer hands them two printed cards and says, "Please sign this
declaration that you are bringing no prohibited substances, as listed, into
the Reich. Possession of any of the prohibited drugs in Category-A carries
an automatic ten-year jail term if discovered anywhere within the Reich or
the Greater European Economic Union, and likewise drugs from Category-B
carry a five-year jail term. Within the Reich itself, trafficking or
attempting to traffic in any Category-A drugs is an offence punishable by
death."

Michelle signs the declaration without hesitation, although cocaine is on
the neatly-printed list of drugs in Category-A. She is sure the Germans
will not search her luggage beyond the most cursory inspection, particularly
not for drugs. Not a first-class visitor from Australia. If she had come
from America, if they had let her in at all, her luggage would have been all
but torn apart in the search for drugs.

The customs officer adds another stamp to each of the already over-crowded
visas, and hands back their passports. He smiles. "Welcome to the Reich,
Baron and Lady von Kelvin. Please proceed to luggage inspection on your
left."

Michelle smiles back, but as she does so, she can't help noticing the
black-clad soldiers in the background, carrying automatic rifles. That is
something she is unused to, and that she has seen nowhere else in their long
journey, not in Eden's [OTL Auckland, New Zealand] skyport, or the stopovers
in Sydney, Palmerston [OTL Darwin, Australia], Singapore, Colombo, Muscat,
or Alexandria.

They move through luggage clearance, and as she expects, the clearance
officer only gives her luggage the briefest of inspections before waving her
through. Though that may have had more to do with the twenty-mark note she
folds into her passport before she hands it to the man.

Her husband Andrew has no more trouble with luggage inspection than she
does; tipping the inspectors to avoid the inconvenience of a full inspection
is a time-honoured if illegal aristocratic tradition in Europe. Michelle
knows better than to try it in most of Australia - she might get away with
it in Liverpool [OTL Melbourne, Australia] or Adelaide, but an inspector in
Sydney or Richmond would throw her in jail if she tried it.

Once through luggage inspection, they find a tuxedo-clad chauffeur waiting
for them by the first-class entrance to the skyport terminal. The chauffeur
holds up a sign reading "Lord and Lady Kelvin." He bows to them as they
approach, takes the luggage trolley off Michelle, and guides them to the
waiting Hansom [1]. Michelle thinks she sees a slight frown when he notices
that she wears a skirt which reveals her ankles and calves, but decides to
ignore it. The Reich is far more conservative about such matters, as she
knew before she arrived.

"Straight to the hotel, my lord?" the chauffeur asks.

"Drive us around Frankfurt first," Andrew says. "Show us the city."

"Yes, my lord," the chauffeur says, as the Hansom leaves the skyport.

From the way he shifts effortlessly into the role of tour guide, Michelle
knows he has been called on to do this many times before. But that is to be
expected. Frankfurt has been the capital of the Reich for more than a
century - studying and teaching history has given Michelle an appreciation
for anything which lasts a long time - and it is the seat of government for
one of the three most powerful nations on earth. Michelle doesn't care all
that much for how the Reich has used its power, but that doesn't diminish
her appreciation for the city it has built.

The chauffeur says, "Frankfurt is a city like no other in Europe.
Elsewhere, cities have built up over centuries, their ancient, narrow
streets winding here and there."

"Awfully picturesque," Andrew says, and Michelle nods. They will be
visiting several such cities on their honeymoon.

"But not so convenient for horsts," the chauffeur replies with a smile.
"The heart of Frankfurt was destroyed during Napoleon IV's invasion. After
that war was over, Chancellor Otto von Bismarck ordered that Frankfurt be
rebuilt on a scale and grandeur suiting the capital of the Reich. So he
filled it with wide boulevards and open spaces... and those boulevards later
suited horsts very well."

Michelle murmurs, "So, Bismarck was the architect of the Reich in more ways
than one." But the chauffeur doesn't seem to hear her.

"As Frankfurt expanded, the city fathers have maintained this space, and
built roads to suit its role as the transport hub of Germany. This
Wagenbahn - excuse me, this highway, you would say auf Englisch - is the
Outer Ring Road, which circles the city and has... highways which meet from
across the Reich. That one leads to Amsterdam, and others lead to Hanover,
Berlin, Prague, Munich, Vienna and Strasbourg."

The Hansom turns left in a wide curve as it leaves the outer ring road [2],
opening up a sweeping view of Frankfurt on the River Main. It looks compact
to Michelle, no matter what the chauffeur says about being more open than
European cities. Of course, she knows mostly Australian cities, which
sprawl like few others on earth. She has heard that some American cities
are the same, especially those on the Northwest Coast, but she has never
seen them, and doubts she ever will. The United States will never grant her
an entry visa even if relations between Australia and America were not so
hostile [3].

Frankfurt looks mostly flat, with none of the grassy volcanic cones
scattered across Eden, and of course its skyline has nothing like the
triple-humped shape of Rangitoto Island to give it definition. But the
staggered line of cloudscrapers beside the riverside has a charm of its own.

The chauffeur says, "Few cities in Europe allow cloudscrapers. Frankfurt
permits them, but they are not allowed to overshadow the city's historic
heart."

Michelle is less impressed by the presence of cloudscrapers than the
chauffeur seems to expect. Cloudscrapers are commonplace in Sydney and
Liverpool and Richmond and they are starting to spring up in Eden, too. But
one massive building which dominates the eastern end of Frankfurt's skyline
does grab her notice, a gray-and-glass cloudscraper slowly closing to a
towering spire. It is much higher than any of the other cloudscrapers in
Frankfurt.

When she remarks on it, the chauffeur says, "Yes, that is the Leger Geheug
Aufsatz, the Army Memorial Tower. With 100 storeys, it is the tallest
building in Europe." He chuckles. "After it was built, most floors were
empty for so long that we called it the Leer Geheug Aufsatz, the Empty
Memorial Tower."

The Hansom brings them to another four-lane highway, which the chauffeur
announces as the Inner Ring Road. He turns left, and begins describing the
landmarks of Frankfurt's heart. "On the left there is the Habsburg-Wettin,
the premier hotel in Frankfurt, home to monarchs, chancellors and presidents
for fifty years, which you will see much more of soon, when you stay there."

"To the right is the National Museum, with its famous grounds which stretch
along the Main." To Michelle, the National Museum looks like someone has
grabbed the columns of the Parthenon and painted them silver and green.

"This is the Gelbe Brücke, the Yellow Bridge, one of the main bridges across
the Main." Michelle looks out at the yellow sandstone facing on the walls
on the bridge, and at the many pedestrians scurrying across the outer
footpaths, and nods.

"To the right is the Three-fold Palace, where the Kaisers reside when they
visit Frankfurt." Michelle glances outside to see three sets of buildings
arrayed equidistantly around a central courtyard with a fountain and a clock
tower. As far as she can tell, the buildings' exteriors are identical in
all respects.

"To the left is the Bundestag, the "Beehive" where the chief administrators
reside, and the other buildings of the National Government." Michelle turns
to see the long, angular, but gargoyle-festooned shape of the Bundestag, and
the round form which indeed looks like a beehive. The black, red and gold
tricolour with triple-headed eagle, flag of the German Reich, flutters from
a pole between them. These grounds also have plenty of black-clad soldiers
patrolling, too.

"To the right is St. Nikolaus's Palace, where the state monarchs reside when
they are in Frankfurt." The many wings of St. Nikolaus's Palace - St.
Nicholas's Palace, Michelle supposes - cluster along the bank of the Main,
but she mostly notices a towering red-painted statue of a bearded man in a
bishop's mitre, which stands closest to the highway.

"To the left is Embassy Avenue, which contains all the major diplomatic
missions to Germany. The two closest buildings are the American and Russian
embassies." Michelle glances at them, and sees two more or less identical
cubes for the embassies. Typical German efficiency, she thinks, to have
constructed both primary embassies as similar as possible and with neither
of them having any obviously superior status. But she still tells them
apart easily, for the Russian embassy has only a low hedge to separate it
from the boulevard, while the American embassy has a high white-painted wall
topped with four lines of razor wire, and barriers in front of the driveway.

"To the right is the Römerberg, the rebuilt heart of Old Frankfurt. We
cannot drive there, but I suggest that you visit the Römer, the town hall,
and the Cathedral Saint Bartholomeus, where the Holy Roman Emperors are
crowned [4]."

"Rebuilt after the war?" Michelle asks.

"Rebuilt after the Second Napoleonic Wars," the chauffeur answers. "The
heart of Frankfurt took only minor damage during the war, although much of
the Bundestag needed to be rebuilt."

Andrew whispers, "They rebuilt half the Römerberg to match the original
buildings, no matter what the Germans claim. My uncle used to say the flak
over Frankfurt was the worst in the world."

"Also on the right is the commercial district of Frankfurt. Most of the
offices here are headquarters of banks, as Frankfurt is the financial
capital of Europe." The political capital of Europe too, Michelle adds to
herself, at least if you decide that Europe ends at the Russian border.
Which is probably how most Germans see it.

The highway ducks into a low tunnel as the chauffeur says, "We are now
travelling beneath the Palmengarten, the great park which contains the
Botanic Gardens you must see. This Saturday also brings the Lange Nacht, an
all-night festival - no, you would say carnival - in the park."

The Hansom emerges back into sunlight, and dazzling reflections off the edge
of the Army Memorial Tower close by Michelle's right. The River Main
stretches before them as they approach another bridge, this one with a huge
limestone gateway where pedestrians and vehicles can pass beneath. The
chauffeur does not name this gate, perhaps for fear of the sensitivities of
his passengers, although he has no need. Michelle has no tenderness over
the end of the war, which ended when she was still in school. The
Bogentriomf [Arch of Triumph] is merely a part of history to her, including
the seven national flags which fly upside down from the gate, all
symbolically placed below the level of the carved triple eagle atop its
spire. None of them is the Australian flag, after all, so why should she
care?

"This is the Eiserner Steg, the Iron Bridge, named in the Frankfurt dialect
rather than standard German. First designed for pedestrians, it was rebuilt
as a road and rail bridge after the original was destroyed during Napoleon
IV's invasion. The rail link has now been replaced by the new bridge you
see to your left, and the Iron Bridge converted to form part of the Inner
Ring Road."

"To the right is the Opera House, the world's leading site for performing
artists. Operators [5] come from across Europe, Asia and Australia to
perform here. May I recommend that you see Heinrich Göring's "Faust", an
operatic adaptation of Frankfurt's own Wolfgang von Goethe's classic tale.
Bianca Reinblume's rendition of "The Jewel Song" is particularly moving."
Michelle looks out to see the familiar arched porticos around the Opera
House, and feels a touch of wistful envy. She doubts that Australia will
ever have an opera house to match this one.

"And now, my lord, my lady, we are back at the Habsburg-Wettin, where the
staff eagerly await the chance to make your stay a memorable one. May I add
my own best wishes for your honeymoon."

"Thank you," Michelle says, as she steps out of the Hansom, slipping the
driver a two-mark note before she walks up the grand steps to the
Habsburg-Wettin.

* * *

[1] "Hansom" is an early version of a stretched limousine. There were still
Hansom cabs ITTL (Joseph Hansom, who invented them, was born before the
POD), but the name was applied to more upmarket stretched limousines. In
North America, Hansoms are usually called "strets" or "strethorsts" (short
for stretched horsts).

[2] The Reich (and hence most of Europe) ITTL drives on the left, as that
was Austria's practice in both our history and TTL, and the Holy Roman
Emperor imposed that practice on the entire country when transportation was
being standardised.

[3] Michelle has published various books and lectures on slavery and
property rights, under her maiden name of Michelle Davies. See posts #23b,
#32, and #56.

[4] More precisely, where the man who is already Austrian Emperor is crowned
as Holy Roman Emperor as well.

[5] Yes, I know this is the wrong word in English. The chauffeur doesn't,
however.

* * *

Thoughts?

Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/

P.S. The concluding post for the Second Napoleonic Wars, "The Sword and the
Mind", is coming soon - I just need to finalise a few of the colonial
borders, casualty lists, and a couple of other bits and pieces.
Bar Bradley
2004-11-21 23:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The customs officer hands them two printed cards and says, "Please sign this
declaration that you are bringing no prohibited substances, as
listed, into
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the Reich. Possession of any of the prohibited drugs in Category-A carries
an automatic ten-year jail term if discovered anywhere within the Reich or
the Greater European Economic Union, and likewise drugs from
Category-B
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
carry a five-year jail term. Within the Reich itself, trafficking or
attempting to traffic in any Category-A drugs is an offence
punishable by
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
death."
This seems a bit steep. How puritanical/dictatorial is this Reich?
Especially related to the mention of skirt length.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Michelle signs the declaration without hesitation, although cocaine is on
the neatly-printed list of drugs in Category-A. She is sure the Germans
will not search her luggage beyond the most cursory inspection, particularly
not for drugs. Not a first-class visitor from Australia. If she had come
from America, if they had let her in at all, her luggage would have been all
but torn apart in the search for drugs.
Americans searched for drugs specifically, as opposed to other kinds of
contraband? Is the slaveholding US a narcotics haven?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"As Frankfurt expanded, the city fathers have maintained this space, and
built roads to suit its role as the transport hub of Germany. This
Wagenbahn - excuse me, this highway, you would say auf Englisch - is the
Outer Ring Road, which circles the city and has... highways which meet from
across the Reich. That one leads to Amsterdam, and others lead to Hanover,
Berlin, Prague, Munich, Vienna and Strasbourg."
So the Czechs haven't been given local autonomy like the Hungarians and
Croats?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"To the left is Embassy Avenue, which contains all the major
diplomatic
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
missions to Germany. The two closest buildings are the American and Russian
embassies." Michelle glances at them, and sees two more or less identical
cubes for the embassies. Typical German efficiency, she thinks, to have
constructed both primary embassies as similar as possible and with neither
of them having any obviously superior status. But she still tells them
apart easily, for the Russian embassy has only a low hedge to
separate it
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
from the boulevard, while the American embassy has a high
white-painted wall
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
topped with four lines of razor wire, and barriers in front of the driveway.
This seems to go beyond even the paranoia of alt-Draka. Furthermore,
shouldn't an embassy, especially one of a major power, be afforded
significant protection by the host country?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"Rebuilt after the Second Napoleonic Wars," the chauffeur answers.
"The
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
heart of Frankfurt took only minor damage during the war, although much of
the Bundestag needed to be rebuilt."
Andrew whispers, "They rebuilt half the Römerberg to match the original
buildings, no matter what the Germans claim. My uncle used to say the flak
over Frankfurt was the worst in the world."
Ooh, a mysterious European war in decades to come. Was Frankfurt
devastated as badly as some of the OTL German cities after WW2?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The Hansom emerges back into sunlight, and dazzling reflections off the edge
of the Army Memorial Tower close by Michelle's right. The River Main
stretches before them as they approach another bridge, this one with a huge
limestone gateway where pedestrians and vehicles can pass beneath.
The
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
chauffeur does not name this gate, perhaps for fear of the
sensitivities of
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
his passengers, although he has no need. Michelle has no tenderness over
the end of the war, which ended when she was still in school. The
Bogentriomf [Arch of Triumph] is merely a part of history to her, including
the seven national flags which fly upside down from the gate, all
symbolically placed below the level of the carved triple eagle atop its
spire. None of them is the Australian flag, after all, so why should she
care?
This seems somewhat humiliating, having the defeated nations' national
flags hung perpetually as a reminder of the German victory. An arch I
can see, but permanent gloating over their defeat I imagine would be
sure to inspire major resentment.
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-22 08:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The customs officer hands them two printed cards and says, "Please
sign this
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
declaration that you are bringing no prohibited substances, as
listed, into
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the Reich. Possession of any of the prohibited drugs in Category-A
carries
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
an automatic ten-year jail term if discovered anywhere within the
Reich or
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the Greater European Economic Union, and likewise drugs from
Category-B
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
carry a five-year jail term. Within the Reich itself, trafficking or
attempting to traffic in any Category-A drugs is an offence
punishable by
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
death."
This seems a bit steep. How puritanical/dictatorial is this Reich?
Especially related to the mention of skirt length.
Socially conservative in many respects, although they're being shaken
up in their own way because of advances in medical technology (viz,
contraception), and quite, quite hard on people who they view as
endangering the security of the Reich. For various reasons (see
below), drug trafficking is viewed as endangering the Reich, mostly
because of the source of those drugs. It's not dictatorial per se.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Michelle signs the declaration without hesitation, although cocaine
is on
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the neatly-printed list of drugs in Category-A. She is sure the
Germans
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
will not search her luggage beyond the most cursory inspection,
particularly
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
not for drugs. Not a first-class visitor from Australia. If she had
come
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
from America, if they had let her in at all, her luggage would have
been all
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
but torn apart in the search for drugs.
Americans searched for drugs specifically, as opposed to other kinds of
contraband? Is the slaveholding US a narcotics haven?
Broadly speaking, yes, although they're taxed extremely heavily within
the USA rather than being outright illegal or a narcotics haven. The
*USA has its own views on why outright prohibition doesn't work,
having seen what happened when that was tried with alcohol prohbition.
Plus the influence of certain rich members of society who were either
making a lot of money off products they didn't want declared illegal,
and/or who enjoyed using said products.

Also, remember where a lot of the production of such drugs is even in
OTL. It's a safe bet that, whether or not the USA has political
control of those areas, it most definitely has economic control...
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"As Frankfurt expanded, the city fathers have maintained this space,
and
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
built roads to suit its role as the transport hub of Germany. This
Wagenbahn - excuse me, this highway, you would say auf Englisch - is
the
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Outer Ring Road, which circles the city and has... highways which
meet from
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
across the Reich. That one leads to Amsterdam, and others lead to
Hanover,
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Berlin, Prague, Munich, Vienna and Strasbourg."
So the Czechs haven't been given local autonomy like the Hungarians and
Croats?
Still undecided on that, but most likely local autonomy within the
Reich, as opposed to political separation. Giving up Bohemia would be
really a bitter pill for the Austrians to swallow, although they're
quite happy to treat the Czechs lightly.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"To the left is Embassy Avenue, which contains all the major
diplomatic
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
missions to Germany. The two closest buildings are the American and
Russian
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
embassies." Michelle glances at them, and sees two more or less
identical
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
cubes for the embassies. Typical German efficiency, she thinks, to
have
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
constructed both primary embassies as similar as possible and with
neither
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
of them having any obviously superior status. But she still tells
them
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
apart easily, for the Russian embassy has only a low hedge to
separate it
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
from the boulevard, while the American embassy has a high
white-painted wall
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
topped with four lines of razor wire, and barriers in front of the
driveway.
This seems to go beyond even the paranoia of alt-Draka. Furthermore,
shouldn't an embassy, especially one of a major power, be afforded
significant protection by the host country?
Not paranoia as such, but the walls also serve to keep certain people
inside the U.S. Embassy, more than keeping people outside (although
the USA also has some reason to worry about that). There would be
some German security outside as well, but Michelle didn't necessarily
take much notice of them. They won't be designed to be highly
visible.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"Rebuilt after the Second Napoleonic Wars," the chauffeur answers.
"The
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
heart of Frankfurt took only minor damage during the war, although
much of
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the Bundestag needed to be rebuilt."
Andrew whispers, "They rebuilt half the R merberg to match the
original
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
buildings, no matter what the Germans claim. My uncle used to say
the flak
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
over Frankfurt was the worst in the world."
Ooh, a mysterious European war in decades to come. Was Frankfurt
devastated as badly as some of the OTL German cities after WW2?
Not badly damaged, but it took a few hits here and there. The flak
and the German Air Force fought off the worst of it.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The Hansom emerges back into sunlight, and dazzling reflections off
the edge
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
of the Army Memorial Tower close by Michelle's right. The River Main
stretches before them as they approach another bridge, this one with
a huge
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
limestone gateway where pedestrians and vehicles can pass beneath.
The
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
chauffeur does not name this gate, perhaps for fear of the
sensitivities of
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
his passengers, although he has no need. Michelle has no tenderness
over
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the end of the war, which ended when she was still in school. The
Bogentriomf [Arch of Triumph] is merely a part of history to her,
including
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
the seven national flags which fly upside down from the gate, all
symbolically placed below the level of the carved triple eagle atop
its
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
spire. None of them is the Australian flag, after all, so why should
she
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
care?
This seems somewhat humiliating, having the defeated nations' national
flags hung perpetually as a reminder of the German victory. An arch I
can see, but permanent gloating over their defeat I imagine would be
sure to inspire major resentment.
Good point. The Germans would probably have the flags up for the
first few years, but remove them after a discreet interval. They
should be long gone by 1952, but Michelle could quite easily remember
that they used to be there. She is a historian, and remembers things
like that. Consider that amended.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-22 17:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Bar Bradley
This seems a bit steep. How puritanical/dictatorial is this Reich?
Especially related to the mention of skirt length.
Socially conservative in many respects, although they're being shaken
up in their own way because of advances in medical technology (viz,
contraception),
So they were still breeding like rabbits until the mid 20th century, and
this didn't create HUGE economical and social problems (Why not have 250
Mio. Germans in 1950, and the same population in the rest of
continental Europe (outside Russia).
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
and quite, quite hard on people who they view as
endangering the security of the Reich. For various reasons (see
below), drug trafficking is viewed as endangering the Reich, mostly
because of the source of those drugs. It's not dictatorial per se.
Post by Bar Bradley
Americans searched for drugs specifically, as opposed to other kinds of
contraband? Is the slaveholding US a narcotics haven?
Broadly speaking, yes, although they're taxed extremely heavily within
the USA rather than being outright illegal or a narcotics haven. The
*USA has its own views on why outright prohibition doesn't work,
having seen what happened when that was tried with alcohol prohbition.
This happens as well ITTL? But has the opposite reaction (I mean - the
US still is probably the (officially) least tolerant of the major
western countries OTL). So it didn't work. If there hasn't been a huge
change in the US society (toward multi-racial/multi-culturality) in the
later periods, this is somewhat surprising or at least inconsistent.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Plus the influence of certain rich members of society who were either
making a lot of money off products they didn't want declared illegal,
and/or who enjoyed using said products.
What certainly would have applied to intoxicating liquids as well. No
prohibition I could easily see..
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Bar Bradley
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Berlin, Prague, Munich, Vienna and Strasbourg."
So the Czechs haven't been given local autonomy like the Hungarians and
Croats?
Munich and Strasbourg certainly aren't capitals of semi-independent
countries, so this seems no indicator.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Still undecided on that, but most likely local autonomy within the
Reich, as opposed to political separation. Giving up Bohemia would be
really a bitter pill for the Austrians to swallow, although they're
quite happy to treat the Czechs lightly.
The question is if there are still Czechs distinct from Germans...
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Bar Bradley
This seems to go beyond even the paranoia of alt-Draka. Furthermore,
shouldn't an embassy, especially one of a major power, be afforded
significant protection by the host country?
Not paranoia as such, but the walls also serve to keep certain people
inside the U.S. Embassy, more than keeping people outside (although
the USA also has some reason to worry about that).
Still slavery going on in diplomatic service?!? Urgh...
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-22 19:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Bar Bradley
This seems a bit steep. How puritanical/dictatorial is this Reich?
Especially related to the mention of skirt length.
Socially conservative in many respects, although they're being shaken
up in their own way because of advances in medical technology (viz,
contraception),
So they were still breeding like rabbits until the mid 20th century, and
this didn't create HUGE economical and social problems (Why not have 250
Mio. Germans in 1950, and the same population in the rest of continental
Europe (outside Russia).
Birth rates in OTL started dropping before modern medical contraception
(i.e. the contraceptive pill), as people found other methods to avoid having
too many children. In general, as families move to the cities, they have
fewer children both OTL and ATL. Germany is more populous than OTL, but
that's mostly an effect of not having so many people die in two world wars.
(There is only one relevant war ITTL). The effects of the sexual revolution
with the contraceptive pill being introduced in roughly 1950 will be quite
another story, though.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
and quite, quite hard on people who they view as
endangering the security of the Reich. For various reasons (see
below), drug trafficking is viewed as endangering the Reich, mostly
because of the source of those drugs. It's not dictatorial per se.
Post by Bar Bradley
Americans searched for drugs specifically, as opposed to other kinds of
contraband? Is the slaveholding US a narcotics haven?
Broadly speaking, yes, although they're taxed extremely heavily within
the USA rather than being outright illegal or a narcotics haven. The
*USA has its own views on why outright prohibition doesn't work,
having seen what happened when that was tried with alcohol prohbition.
This happens as well ITTL? But has the opposite reaction (I mean - the US
still is probably the (officially) least tolerant of the major western
countries OTL). So it didn't work. If there hasn't been a huge change in
the US society (toward multi-racial/multi-culturality) in the later
periods, this is somewhat surprising or at least inconsistent.
Sorry, should have been clearer: they saw what happens when New England
imposes alcohol prohibition, which is in roughly the 1890s-1910s. (The
temperance movement in OTL got started mostly in New England). Some of the
planters in the USA got very rich smuggling gin and rum and whiskey and so
forth into New England, and just laughed when people wanted to impose the
same thing within the USA. They see the European response to narcotics as
similar, since it raises prices sky-high and thus makes it worth the price
of smuggling.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Plus the influence of certain rich members of society who were either
making a lot of money off products they didn't want declared illegal,
and/or who enjoyed using said products.
What certainly would have applied to intoxicating liquids as well. No
prohibition I could easily see..
Yes, the idea of alcohol prohibition in the USA tends to produce rounds of
laughter from the planters.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Bar Bradley
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Berlin, Prague, Munich, Vienna and Strasbourg."
So the Czechs haven't been given local autonomy like the Hungarians and
Croats?
Munich and Strasbourg certainly aren't capitals of semi-independent
countries, so this seems no indicator.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Still undecided on that, but most likely local autonomy within the
Reich, as opposed to political separation. Giving up Bohemia would be
really a bitter pill for the Austrians to swallow, although they're
quite happy to treat the Czechs lightly.
The question is if there are still Czechs distinct from Germans...
Quite a good question, and one I need to think about further.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Bar Bradley
This seems to go beyond even the paranoia of alt-Draka. Furthermore,
shouldn't an embassy, especially one of a major power, be afforded
significant protection by the host country?
Not paranoia as such, but the walls also serve to keep certain people
inside the U.S. Embassy, more than keeping people outside (although
the USA also has some reason to worry about that).
Still slavery going on in diplomatic service?!? Urgh...
Yes, although there is a glimmer of hope in this regard, in that the growing
spread of mechanization has finally made the agricultural heart of slavery
much less of an issue. This isn't an instant road to freedom, but it has
started to create some changes in the USA. The industrial debt-slavery is
another story, but more and more of those workers are gaining freedom too,
for a variety of reasons.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-22 22:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Birth rates in OTL started dropping before modern medical contraception
(i.e. the contraceptive pill), as people found other methods to avoid having
too many children. In general, as families move to the cities, they have
fewer children both OTL and ATL.
I know this as a rule - but had the idea, that may be a very family
friendly conservatism had altered this a bit - a prosperous country with
_family values_ / all wives stay home and have 4 children (average),
what is possible with the help of a government supported housing
programm, allowing for reasonably priced spacy houses in a wide
stretched suburbia, with an ideology that for women, caring for husband,
kids, house and garden is the only valuable lifestile.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Sorry, should have been clearer: they saw what happens when New England
imposes alcohol prohibition, which is in roughly the 1890s-1910s. (The
temperance movement in OTL got started mostly in New England). Some of the
planters in the USA got very rich smuggling gin and rum and whiskey and so
forth into New England, and just laughed when people wanted to impose the
same thing within the USA. They see the European response to narcotics as
similar, since it raises prices sky-high and thus makes it worth the price
of smuggling.
Yes, the idea of alcohol prohibition in the USA tends to produce rounds of
laughter from the planters.
would rather have expected it that way. :)

But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not
really consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy,
there would certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally)
in the own sphere of influence.
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-23 03:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Birth rates in OTL started dropping before modern medical contraception
(i.e. the contraceptive pill), as people found other methods to avoid
having too many children. In general, as families move to the cities,
they have fewer children both OTL and ATL.
I know this as a rule - but had the idea, that may be a very family
friendly conservatism had altered this a bit - a prosperous country with
_family values_ / all wives stay home and have 4 children (average), what
is possible with the help of a government supported housing programm,
allowing for reasonably priced spacy houses in a wide stretched suburbia,
with an ideology that for women, caring for husband, kids, house and
garden is the only valuable lifestile.
Hmm, that sounds intriguingly fun, and quite possible for *Germany to adopt.
Although this would be starting to break apart by the 1950s, regardless of
government effort. In general, women's rights are more advanced in parts of
the DoD world, particularly the British Empire and New England, but I'm not
sure which way Germany and most of Europe will go. Russia will be another
good question, too.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Sorry, should have been clearer: they saw what happens when New England
imposes alcohol prohibition, which is in roughly the 1890s-1910s. (The
temperance movement in OTL got started mostly in New England). Some of
the planters in the USA got very rich smuggling gin and rum and whiskey
and so forth into New England, and just laughed when people wanted to
impose the same thing within the USA. They see the European response to
narcotics as similar, since it raises prices sky-high and thus makes it
worth the price of smuggling.
Yes, the idea of alcohol prohibition in the USA tends to produce rounds
of laughter from the planters.
would rather have expected it that way. :)
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not really
consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy, there would
certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally) in the own
sphere of influence.
There's an ideological component to this as well. The American upper
classes are viewed as a bunch of fat opium fiends (to borrow a phrase), and
they don't want the same thing happening to their own citizens. Protecting
the citizens for their own good, in other words. Especially the children.
The fact that the money goes to the United States is part of their hatred,
but it's part of a broader dislike of the whole lifestyle.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
The Horny Goat
2004-11-23 07:00:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:30:37 +1100, "Kaiser Wilhelm III"
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not really
consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy, there would
certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally) in the own
sphere of influence.
Most of you thought he was talking about opiates - I assumed he was
talking about an early invention of the birth control pill in *Germany
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-24 07:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:30:37 +1100, "Kaiser Wilhelm III"
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not really
consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy, there would
certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally) in the own
sphere of influence.
Most of you thought he was talking about opiates - I assumed he was
talking about an early invention of the birth control pill in *Germany
There will be an earlier bith control pill (invented perhaps in Germany,
perhaps elsewhere), but the *Reich isn't the sort of place which would
impose the death penalty for trafficking in it. They would restrict its use
heavily though, at least at first, e.g. only to be prescribed to married
couples, or something similar.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
The Horny Goat
2004-11-25 03:52:09 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:58:47 +1100, "Kaiser Wilhelm III"
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by The Horny Goat
Most of you thought he was talking about opiates - I assumed he was
talking about an early invention of the birth control pill in *Germany
There will be an earlier bith control pill (invented perhaps in Germany,
perhaps elsewhere), but the *Reich isn't the sort of place which would
impose the death penalty for trafficking in it. They would restrict its use
heavily though, at least at first, e.g. only to be prescribed to married
couples, or something similar.
According to
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blthepill.htm

Frank Colton was born in Poland while Carl Djerassi was from Vienna -
I believe both of which are either part of the *Reich or heavily
influenced by the *Reich. Clearly Enovid (the first oral 'pill') could
have been invented by somebody else but either way in this timeline
there's no reason to believe *Germany would be in any way inferior to
the *United States (wink - I know what the USA is in DoD) in terms of
biochemistry generally or hormonal biochemistry in particular.

And there is absolutely no doubt "The Pill" is a highly significant
20th century invention and likely to be developed in pretty much any
TL that doesn't involve us all blowing ourselves to kingdom come!
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-25 21:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:58:47 +1100, "Kaiser Wilhelm III"
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by The Horny Goat
Most of you thought he was talking about opiates - I assumed he was
talking about an early invention of the birth control pill in *Germany
There will be an earlier bith control pill (invented perhaps in Germany,
perhaps elsewhere), but the *Reich isn't the sort of place which would
impose the death penalty for trafficking in it. They would restrict its use
heavily though, at least at first, e.g. only to be prescribed to married
couples, or something similar.
According to
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blthepill.htm
Frank Colton was born in Poland while Carl Djerassi was from Vienna -
I believe both of which are either part of the *Reich or heavily
influenced by the *Reich. Clearly Enovid (the first oral 'pill') could
have been invented by somebody else but either way in this timeline
there's no reason to believe *Germany would be in any way inferior to
the *United States (wink - I know what the USA is in DoD) in terms of
biochemistry generally or hormonal biochemistry in particular.
And there is absolutely no doubt "The Pill" is a highly significant
20th century invention and likely to be developed in pretty much any
TL that doesn't involve us all blowing ourselves to kingdom come!
Oh, it's definitely there, earlier than OTL as part of a general advance in
medical technology by 5-10 years, and has already been mentioned in one of
the previous posts (#51b) as one of the most important events of the
twentieth century. But I suspect that Germany will try and fail to limit
its use to married women for the first few years, much as was tried OTL. By
somewhere around 1955, they will have given up on that idea.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-23 16:41:58 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
I know this as a rule - but had the idea, that may be a very family
friendly conservatism had altered this a bit - a prosperous country with
_family values_ / all wives stay home and have 4 children (average), what
is possible with the help of a government supported housing programm,
allowing for reasonably priced spacy houses in a wide stretched suburbia,
with an ideology that for women, caring for husband, kids, house and
garden is the only valuable lifestile.
Hmm, that sounds intriguingly fun, and quite possible for *Germany to adopt.
Although this would be starting to break apart by the 1950s, regardless of
government effort. In general, women's rights are more advanced in parts of
the DoD world, particularly the British Empire and New England, but I'm not
sure which way Germany and most of Europe will go. Russia will be another
good question, too.
And of course, there were HUGE differences in population growth in
Europe in the 20th century,
not explicable by migration and different war casaulties alone.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not really
consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy, there would
certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally) in the own
sphere of influence.
There's an ideological component to this as well. The American upper
classes are viewed as a bunch of fat opium fiends (to borrow a phrase), and
they don't want the same thing happening to their own citizens.
But in OTL, drug prohibition didn't start very early, and the best hated
Opium derivative, Heroin, was actually a trade mark of the German
pharmaceutical company Bayer, as some other poster pointed out. So I
could easily imagin a TL were most of the OTL banned narcotics ended up
as perfectly legal, industrial produced - advertised prescription drug,
on sale in every pharmacie.
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-24 08:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
<snip>
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
I know this as a rule - but had the idea, that may be a very family
friendly conservatism had altered this a bit - a prosperous country with
_family values_ / all wives stay home and have 4 children (average), what
is possible with the help of a government supported housing programm,
allowing for reasonably priced spacy houses in a wide stretched suburbia,
with an ideology that for women, caring for husband, kids, house and
garden is the only valuable lifestile.
Hmm, that sounds intriguingly fun, and quite possible for *Germany to
adopt. Although this would be starting to break apart by the 1950s,
regardless of government effort. In general, women's rights are more
advanced in parts of the DoD world, particularly the British Empire and
New England, but I'm not sure which way Germany and most of Europe will
go. Russia will be another good question, too.
And of course, there were HUGE differences in population growth in Europe
in the 20th century,
not explicable by migration and different war casaulties alone.
There will be various differences in the population growth ATL, but I still
need to sit down with some good demographic data and map the trends into the
twentieth century.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not really
consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy, there would
certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally) in the own
sphere of influence.
There's an ideological component to this as well. The American upper
classes are viewed as a bunch of fat opium fiends (to borrow a phrase),
and they don't want the same thing happening to their own citizens.
But in OTL, drug prohibition didn't start very early, and the best hated
Opium derivative, Heroin, was actually a trade mark of the German
pharmaceutical company Bayer, as some other poster pointed out. So I could
easily imagin a TL were most of the OTL banned narcotics ended up as
perfectly legal, industrial produced - advertised prescription drug, on
sale in every pharmacie.
Hmm, I don't know enough about the history of heroin in Europe to know
whether its prohibition was a local reaction to the drug, or if it followed
other parts of the world. But given that most drugs started out legal and
became prohibited over time, I could see the same reaction developing in
*Germany, particularly once an ideological struggle starts between the USA
and the *Reich. Of course, as you point out, there are plenty of potential
TLs where the OTL adoption of prohibition is not adopted (and indeed, I have
this happening in the *USA and, to a lesser degree, *Russia as well). I'm
just positing that Germany develops a strong form of prohibition ITTL.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-24 17:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
<snip>
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
I know this as a rule - but had the idea, that may be a very family
friendly conservatism had altered this a bit - a prosperous country with
_family values_ / all wives stay home and have 4 children (average), what
is possible with the help of a government supported housing programm,
allowing for reasonably priced spacy houses in a wide stretched suburbia,
with an ideology that for women, caring for husband, kids, house and
garden is the only valuable lifestile.
Hmm, that sounds intriguingly fun, and quite possible for *Germany to
adopt. Although this would be starting to break apart by the 1950s,
regardless of government effort. In general, women's rights are more
advanced in parts of the DoD world, particularly the British Empire and
New England, but I'm not sure which way Germany and most of Europe will
go. Russia will be another good question, too.
And of course, there were HUGE differences in population growth in Europe
in the 20th century,
not explicable by migration and different war casaulties alone.
There will be various differences in the population growth ATL, but I still
need to sit down with some good demographic data and map the trends into the
twentieth century.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not really
consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy, there would
certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally) in the own
sphere of influence.
There's an ideological component to this as well. The American upper
classes are viewed as a bunch of fat opium fiends (to borrow a phrase),
and they don't want the same thing happening to their own citizens.
But in OTL, drug prohibition didn't start very early, and the best hated
Opium derivative, Heroin, was actually a trade mark of the German
pharmaceutical company Bayer, as some other poster pointed out. So I could
easily imagin a TL were most of the OTL banned narcotics ended up as
perfectly legal, industrial produced - advertised prescription drug, on
sale in every pharmacie.
Hmm, I don't know enough about the history of heroin in Europe to know
whether its prohibition was a local reaction to the drug, or if it followed
other parts of the world. But given that most drugs started out legal and
became prohibited over time, I could see the same reaction developing in
*Germany, particularly once an ideological struggle starts between the USA
and the *Reich. Of course, as you point out, there are plenty of potential
TLs where the OTL adoption of prohibition is not adopted (and indeed, I have
this happening in the *USA and, to a lesser degree, *Russia as well). I'm
just positing that Germany develops a strong form of prohibition ITTL.
Why - my knowledge of OTL prohibition might be widely based on urban
legends.
They would go as follows: After the alcohol-prohibition failed in the
US, there was a need for a token prohibition, and so some drugs were
banned. This included Marihuana because the Cotton lobby saw Hemp as a
major competitor as texile raw material. After WWII, there was an unholy
alliance between the US and the USSR (authoritarian communism beeing as
anti-drug as anti-religion (Religion as Opium of the masses), and so a
world-wide prohibition became standard.

If this is at least somehow true, this coalition might fail, and a
industrial power with a large pharmaceutical lobby could at least allow
those product that are domestically produced.

[According to Wikipedia, Heroin was banned in the US in 1924, and Bayer
stopped the production in 1931, after it's was surpassed as main cash
cow by his sister product *Aspirin*]
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-25 21:06:51 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not
really consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy,
there would certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally)
in the own sphere of influence.
There's an ideological component to this as well. The American upper
classes are viewed as a bunch of fat opium fiends (to borrow a phrase),
and they don't want the same thing happening to their own citizens.
But in OTL, drug prohibition didn't start very early, and the best hated
Opium derivative, Heroin, was actually a trade mark of the German
pharmaceutical company Bayer, as some other poster pointed out. So I
could easily imagin a TL were most of the OTL banned narcotics ended up
as perfectly legal, industrial produced - advertised prescription drug,
on sale in every pharmacie.
Hmm, I don't know enough about the history of heroin in Europe to know
whether its prohibition was a local reaction to the drug, or if it
followed other parts of the world. But given that most drugs started out
legal and became prohibited over time, I could see the same reaction
developing in *Germany, particularly once an ideological struggle starts
between the USA and the *Reich. Of course, as you point out, there are
plenty of potential TLs where the OTL adoption of prohibition is not
adopted (and indeed, I have this happening in the *USA and, to a lesser
degree, *Russia as well). I'm just positing that Germany develops a
strong form of prohibition ITTL.
Why - my knowledge of OTL prohibition might be widely based on urban
legends.
They would go as follows: After the alcohol-prohibition failed in the US,
there was a need for a token prohibition, and so some drugs were banned.
This included Marihuana because the Cotton lobby saw Hemp as a major
competitor as texile raw material. After WWII, there was an unholy
alliance between the US and the USSR (authoritarian communism beeing as
anti-drug as anti-religion (Religion as Opium of the masses), and so a
world-wide prohibition became standard.
I understand that cannabis/hemp being banned due to the textile industry is
an exaggeration at best (other fabrics were greater competitors), but the
general trend with most drugs was to start out acceptable, and indeed
encouraged, e.g. cocaine and heroin both followed the same route of being
recommended, and then disapproved of as prohibition set in. This doesn't
prevent certain countries ATL from reversing this trend, such as the *USA,
but I'm expecting that most of Europe will try the prohibition approach for
a while. And, eventually, give it up once this has been shown not to work,
but that's another story...

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
The Horny Goat
2004-11-23 07:00:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:04:09 +0100, Good Habit
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not
really consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy,
there would certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally)
in the own sphere of influence.
Which country led the world in drug production pre-1914? Hint: we
normally think of Bayer as an American company now but...
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-24 08:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:04:09 +0100, Good Habit
Post by Good Habit
But the reason about the source (for other drugs) is of course not
really consistent - if Germany wanted to have a more liberal policy,
there would certainly be a possibility to produce some drugs (legally)
in the own sphere of influence.
Which country led the world in drug production pre-1914? Hint: we
normally think of Bayer as an American company now but...
*Germany may well pioneer the process, but once developed I would expect its
use to be more widespread in the *USA. Prohibition of drugs wouldn't be
immediate in Germany, but I'd expected it to develop over time.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
The Horny Goat
2004-11-25 03:53:45 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:00:49 +1100, "Kaiser Wilhelm III"
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
*Germany may well pioneer the process, but once developed I would expect its
use to be more widespread in the *USA. Prohibition of drugs wouldn't be
immediate in Germany, but I'd expected it to develop over time.
I simply cannot conceive of Bavarian Catholicism seriously delaying
the development of a German birth control pill in any TL that's at all
likely. Certainly it would be a major research area at the KW
Institute or any likely ATL counterpart.
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-25 21:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:00:49 +1100, "Kaiser Wilhelm III"
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
*Germany may well pioneer the process, but once developed I would expect its
use to be more widespread in the *USA. Prohibition of drugs wouldn't be
immediate in Germany, but I'd expected it to develop over time.
I simply cannot conceive of Bavarian Catholicism seriously delaying
the development of a German birth control pill in any TL that's at all
likely. Certainly it would be a major research area at the KW
Institute or any likely ATL counterpart.
I was referring in this case to *Germany pioneering the development of the
process for manufacturing heroin, and probably that for concentrating
cocaine as well. *Germany will have some restrictions on the use of "the
Pill" for a few years, basically trying to restrict it to married women, and
then giving up, but it won't fall under the same category of prohibited
drugs as they class cocaine, in particular, and most OTL prohibited drugs.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
mark edelstein
2004-11-22 11:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bar Bradley
This seems somewhat humiliating, having the defeated nations' national
flags hung perpetually as a reminder of the German victory. An arch I
can see, but permanent gloating over their defeat I imagine would be
sure to inspire major resentment.
It's merely a symbol of European...unity.

So Germany is authoritarian I take it? Or "democratic?"
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-22 19:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark edelstein
Post by Bar Bradley
This seems somewhat humiliating, having the defeated nations' national
flags hung perpetually as a reminder of the German victory. An arch I
can see, but permanent gloating over their defeat I imagine would be
sure to inspire major resentment.
It's merely a symbol of European...unity.
So Germany is authoritarian I take it? Or "democratic?"
Germany is democratic, although they were late in implementing a universal
franchise (e.g. women didn't get the vote until relatively recently). One
of the effects of the last war was a strengthened sense of what, for want of
a better word, I call "nationalistic democracy". They were a de facto one
party state for a while, not because opposition was outlawed, but because
the main party had policies which were popular and jingoistic. This is
changing, with the political opposition gaining strength, and Germany of
1960 will be considerably different to what it is now. However, as I
mentioned on another post upthread, I probably should have shown some of the
changes starting earlier, including the flags having been removed. Germany
is trying, slowly, to portray itself as a good European nation.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-22 17:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Decades of Darkness Interlude #4: The Main Frankfurt
6 August 1952,
Frankfurt-on-Main,
German Reich
As Michelle enters the terminal, the woman in the blue uniform and smart
white cap announces, in German, "Welcome to Otto von Bismarck International
Bismarck is still held so high in puplic opinion, that they name the
airport after him - in OTL, this usually happens to more recent politicans.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The customs officer looks inside the passport, nods at the visa, then says,
"Guten Middag,
Another dutch expression, well understandable (especially from my Swiss
PoV) but raising the question about standardized *Neudeutsch* spelling.
Within the Reich itself, trafficking or
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
attempting to traffic in any Category-A drugs is an offence punishable by
death."
rather harsh conditions, that..
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Michelle signs the declaration without hesitation, although cocaine is on
the neatly-printed list of drugs in Category-A.
and among the usual life-style goods upper class Australians would use?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
She is sure the Germans will not search her luggage
Though that may have had more to do with the twenty-mark note she
folds into her passport before she hands it to the man.
And so corruption seems widespread..
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Michelle thinks she sees a slight frown when he notices
that she wears a skirt which reveals her ankles and calves, but decides to
ignore it. The Reich is far more conservative about such matters, as she
knew before she arrived.
Some how the concept of a socially VERY conservative but succesful and
prospering REICH strikes my as odd..
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
a - another Neudeutsch-Expression..
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
She has heard that some American cities
are the same, especially those on the Northwest Coast,
Definition of US-Northwest Coast in TTL? California?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Frankfurt looks mostly flat, with none of the grassy volcanic cones
scattered across Eden,
Compared to Auckland (OTL) it might look flat, compared to many other
major Cities it probably doesn't, at least if it's much bigger than OTL.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The chauffeur says, "Few cities in Europe allow cloudscrapers.
and so OTL's German word got literally used in English as well...
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
When she remarks on it, the chauffeur says, "Yes, that is the Leger Geheug
Aufsatz, the Army Memorial Tower. With 100 storeys, it is the tallest
building in Europe."
I beg your pardon? Leger GEHEUG AUFSATZ - I learned that leger can mean
army in Dutch, but *Geheug* (no entry in German OR Dutch dictionary) and
*Aufsatz* for Tower, when there is the very old German word "Turm", and
Aufsatz means Essay - and with a second meaning could mean the *top* -
(something small _set above_ something large) (set above being the
literally translation).

Leger Gedenk Turm
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"Rebuilt after the war?" Michelle asks.
Andrew whispers, "They rebuilt half the Römerberg to match the original
buildings, no matter what the Germans claim. My uncle used to say the flak
over Frankfurt was the worst in the world."
So there is another major war not to long before this interlude (2
decades?).
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Thoughts?
The political system of this Germany is not beyond doubt. Rather
conservative and militarized (all these guards in black..), with public
servants ready to take a bribe, and still a major power...

So the Darkness holds for centuries, and not only decades...

Cheers
Good Habit
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-22 19:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Decades of Darkness Interlude #4: The Main Frankfurt
6 August 1952,
Frankfurt-on-Main,
German Reich
As Michelle enters the terminal, the woman in the blue uniform and smart
white cap announces, in German, "Welcome to Otto von Bismarck
International
Bismarck is still held so high in puplic opinion, that they name the
airport after him - in OTL, this usually happens to more recent politicans.
The original skyport (albeit it a much smaller one) would have been built in
~1910, when Bismarck was still within living memory for most of the
decisionmakers.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The customs officer looks inside the passport, nods at the visa, then
says, "Guten Middag,
Another dutch expression, well understandable (especially from my Swiss
PoV) but raising the question about standardized *Neudeutsch* spelling.
The spelling I still have to standardise, all right. This is more of a work
in progress.
Post by Good Habit
Within the Reich itself, trafficking or
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
attempting to traffic in any Category-A drugs is an offence punishable by
death."
rather harsh conditions, that..
Definitely, but drug smuggling is seen as similiar to offering aid and
comfort to the enemies of the Reich (i.e. the USA), and thus it gets treated
accordingly. Although I should note that the death penalty is usually
commuted, but not
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Michelle signs the declaration without hesitation, although cocaine is on
the neatly-printed list of drugs in Category-A.
and among the usual life-style goods upper class Australians would use?
Not by any means. Michelle is middle class, and has married into
aristocracy. It is highly frowned upon in Australia too amongst the upper
class, although that doesn't mean there are no users of it.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
She is sure the Germans will not search her luggage
Though that may have had more to do with the twenty-mark note she folds
into her passport before she hands it to the man.
And so corruption seems widespread..
More aristocrats are expected to be generous with tips and so forth. The
odds are, as Michelle points out, that they won't search the luggage anyway.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Michelle thinks she sees a slight frown when he notices that she wears a
skirt which reveals her ankles and calves, but decides to ignore it. The
Reich is far more conservative about such matters, as she knew before she
arrived.
Some how the concept of a socially VERY conservative but succesful and
prospering REICH strikes my as odd..
Michelle's perspective is coloured somewhat given that she's, by the
standards of the time, a radical hedonist. The Reich has far more
conservative tastes regarding fashion, but they're not resistant to
implementing necessary economic reforms. Germany has been rich for a very
long time, mostly because the earlier abolition of trade barriers (going
back to the 1850s, in many cases) and gradual easing of government
regulation allowed them to build up wealth. They're in recession at the
moment, but not a severe one.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
a - another Neudeutsch-Expression..
Yes, although I was trying to base this on words from the main German
dialects, rather than from Dutch. And I really do need to standardise the
spelling.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
She has heard that some American cities are the same, especially those on
the Northwest Coast,
Definition of US-Northwest Coast in TTL? California?
The Californias (Baja/South California) and Oregon.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Frankfurt looks mostly flat, with none of the grassy volcanic cones
scattered across Eden,
Compared to Auckland (OTL) it might look flat, compared to many other
major Cities it probably doesn't, at least if it's much bigger than OTL.
Yeah, this part more show's Michelle's perspective than what it is.
Auckland has little volcanic scoria cones all over the place, and fewer of
them have been quarried away ITTL.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
The chauffeur says, "Few cities in Europe allow cloudscrapers.
and so OTL's German word got literally used in English as well...
Yes, the influence of German on English is stronger in this TL.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
When she remarks on it, the chauffeur says, "Yes, that is the Leger
Geheug Aufsatz, the Army Memorial Tower. With 100 storeys, it is the
tallest building in Europe."
I beg your pardon? Leger GEHEUG AUFSATZ - I learned that leger can mean
army in Dutch, but *Geheug* (no entry in German OR Dutch dictionary) and
*Aufsatz* for Tower, when there is the very old German word "Turm", and
Aufsatz means Essay - and with a second meaning could mean the *top* -
(something small _set above_ something large) (set above being the
literally translation).
Leger Gedenk Turm
Okay, babblefish doesn't work, although Geheug was meant to represent a
shortened version of "Geheugen", which Babblefish translates as the Dutch
version of memory. But "Leger Gedenk Turm" it is. Thanks!
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
"Rebuilt after the war?" Michelle asks.
Andrew whispers, "They rebuilt half the Römerberg to match the original
buildings, no matter what the Germans claim. My uncle used to say the
flak over Frankfurt was the worst in the world."
So there is another major war not to long before this interlude (2
decades?).
Yes, there is a major war, although it doesn't have any close parallels to
wars in OTL.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Thoughts?
The political system of this Germany is not beyond doubt. Rather
conservative and militarized (all these guards in black..), with public
servants ready to take a bribe, and still a major power...
More trying to handle the ways the world is changing. They wouldn't be seen
as all that conservative by the standards of the OTL 1950s. Women are in
the workforce, and are slowly making changes to the way they look at things.
The militarisation is deliberately done around major landmarks to make
people feel secure, since there have been a few incidents involving damage
to them by (depending on your point of view) terrorists or freedom fighters.
Post by Good Habit
So the Darkness holds for centuries, and not only decades...
The Germany of TTL isn't a bad place to live, although perhaps not the best
in the world. Good economy (depression notwithstanding), good
opportunities, not that expensive. Their views on drugs are coloured by the
source of those drugs, however.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-22 22:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
And so corruption seems widespread..
More aristocrats are expected to be generous with tips
tips to public servants? taking them would in most countries be a
criminal offense - not ITTL?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
a - another Neudeutsch-Expression..
as the word - Auto / Automobile didn't get in use ITTL, it's quite a
locical equivalent to OTL's Autobahn.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Yes, although I was trying to base this on words from the main German
dialects, rather than from Dutch. And I really do need to standardise the
spelling.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
She has heard that some American cities are the same, especially those on
the Northwest Coast,
Definition of US-Northwest Coast in TTL? California?
The Californias (Baja/South California) and Oregon.
So the US stretch MUCH further south, if Baja is still in the NORTH-West?
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
Leger Gedenk Turm
Okay, babblefish doesn't work, although Geheug was meant to represent a
shortened version of "Geheugen", which Babblefish translates as the Dutch
version of memory. But "Leger Gedenk Turm" it is. Thanks!
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-23 03:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
And so corruption seems widespread..
More aristocrats are expected to be generous with tips
tips to public servants? taking them would in most countries be a criminal
offense - not ITTL?
It's still technically illegal ITTL too (Michelle thinks as much: tipping
the inspectors is a time-honoured if illegal aristocratic tradition). But
the enforcement varies. To be more precise, tipping to avoid the bother of
an actual search happens. Trying to "tip" your way out if something illegal
had already been discovered would be stupid and wouldn't work.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
a - another Neudeutsch-Expression..
as the word - Auto / Automobile didn't get in use ITTL, it's quite a
locical equivalent to OTL's Autobahn.
Yes, they will probably have "Wagens" instead of "autos", I think.
Automobiles in the English-speaking world will be colloquially known as
"horsts", from their earlier steam-driven predecessors, but I'm not sure if
they would have a more formal name as well.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Yes, although I was trying to base this on words from the main German
dialects, rather than from Dutch. And I really do need to standardise
the spelling.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
She has heard that some American cities are the same, especially those
on the Northwest Coast,
Definition of US-Northwest Coast in TTL? California?
The Californias (Baja/South California) and Oregon.
So the US stretch MUCH further south, if Baja is still in the NORTH-West?
It's quite a safe assumption that the US border is going to end up further
south. Even in *1885, it stretches as far as Nicaragua, and will probably
go further.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-23 16:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
It's still technically illegal ITTL too (Michelle thinks as much: tipping
the inspectors is a time-honoured if illegal aristocratic tradition). But
the enforcement varies. To be more precise, tipping to avoid the bother of
an actual search happens.
Which may work as long as the inspectors are not paid a bonus per person
turned in - in such a case, tipping migh raise suspicion, or would
have to be fairly high (and risky).
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
Yes, they will probably have "Wagens" instead of "autos",
OTL, the word Wagen (car) is not that uncommon in Germany - in
Switzerland it's allways Auto.. The plural would still be Wagen, but
maybe this is a Dutch grammatical form..

Cheers
Good Habit
David Kohlhoff
2004-11-23 19:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
It's still technically illegal ITTL too (Michelle thinks as much: tipping
the inspectors is a time-honoured if illegal aristocratic tradition).
But the enforcement varies. To be more precise, tipping to avoid the
bother of an actual search happens.
Which may work as long as the inspectors are not paid a bonus per person
turned in - in such a case, tipping migh raise suspicion, or would have to
be fairly high (and risky).
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
Yes, they will probably have "Wagens" instead of "autos",
OTL, the word Wagen (car) is not that uncommon in Germany - in Switzerland
it's allways Auto.. The plural would still be Wagen, but maybe this is a
Dutch grammatical form..
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
plural instead of the other forms. In a simplified grammar I expect that the
number of plural forms would be reduced.

What would be likely in regard to 'die', 'das', and 'der'?

I wonder if the number of declensions could be reduced or at least made more
rational.

David Kohlhoff
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-24 08:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kohlhoff
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
Yes, they will probably have "Wagens" instead of "autos",
OTL, the word Wagen (car) is not that uncommon in Germany - in
Switzerland it's allways Auto.. The plural would still be Wagen, but
maybe this is a Dutch grammatical form..
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
plural instead of the other forms. In a simplified grammar I expect that
the number of plural forms would be reduced.
Sounds quite likely, with the rather large proviso that my knowledge of
German is extremely limited.
Post by David Kohlhoff
What would be likely in regard to 'die', 'das', and 'der'?
One of the things I'm pretty sure would be reduced would be the application
of grammatical gender.
Post by David Kohlhoff
I wonder if the number of declensions could be reduced or at least made
more rational.
Overall, the grammar will be quite simplified, perhaps partly on the Dutch
model, to make for easier learning by all concerned, including for adoption
by formerly non-German-speakers.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-24 17:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
Your talking about some ATL German, I assume..., in OTL German endings
in s often indicate the grammatical genitive. If it should get
standardized, endigns in -ern, or -n would seem more plausibel to me.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
plural instead of the other forms. In a simplified grammar I expect that
the number of plural forms would be reduced.
Sounds quite likely, with the rather large proviso that my knowledge of
German is extremely limited.
Post by David Kohlhoff
What would be likely in regard to 'die', 'das', and 'der'?
One of the things I'm pretty sure would be reduced would be the application
of grammatical gender.
Only if there's at least in one language where they don't exist (Dutch?)
- [I dunno any Dutch -]
- if not, many speakers might find this a loss in precision.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
I wonder if the number of declensions could be reduced or at least made
more rational.
Overall, the grammar will be quite simplified, perhaps partly on the Dutch
model, to make for easier learning by all concerned, including for adoption
by formerly non-German-speakers.
there could be less time forms, as (e.g) in Swiss German, were we have
only present, perfect (and future)
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
Which may work as long as the inspectors are not paid a bonus per person
turned in - in such a case, tipping migh raise suspicion, or would have to
be fairly high (and risky).
I suspect they're not, and tipping is more or less an expected
behaviour for aristocrats ITTL. For an aristocrat, not paying at
least >a nominal tip would probably be viewed strangely.

I have my doubts about the compatibility of a very aristocratic and
still very prosperous society, but...


Cheers
Good Habit
Nigel Waite
2004-11-25 08:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by David Kohlhoff
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
Your talking about some ATL German, I assume..., in OTL German endings
in s often indicate the grammatical genitive. If it should get
standardized, endigns in -ern, or -n would seem more plausibel to me.
German has eight ways of forming a plural, with the -s suffix being
the least common. Like most languages, German has a mechanism for
creating a plural for new coined words or words borrowed from other
languages. Generally if a new/borrowed word is similar to an existing
German word, it will get a similar plural. If a word falls outside
the range of core German words, it will get the -s plural - Auto/Autos
is one obvious example, but you also have Handy/Handys [1]. As far as
I know, there has been no sign of existing German words changing their
plurals to an -s suffix, so it would be incorrect to say that German
is moving in the direction of the -s plural.

Cheers,
Nigel.


[1] In Germany ein Handy is a mobile phone. In Switzerland it tends
to be called ein Natel.
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-25 21:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Waite
Post by Good Habit
Post by David Kohlhoff
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
Your talking about some ATL German, I assume..., in OTL German endings
in s often indicate the grammatical genitive. If it should get
standardized, endigns in -ern, or -n would seem more plausibel to me.
German has eight ways of forming a plural, with the -s suffix being
the least common. Like most languages, German has a mechanism for
creating a plural for new coined words or words borrowed from other
languages. Generally if a new/borrowed word is similar to an existing
German word, it will get a similar plural. If a word falls outside
the range of core German words, it will get the -s plural - Auto/Autos
is one obvious example, but you also have Handy/Handys [1]. As far as
I know, there has been no sign of existing German words changing their
plurals to an -s suffix, so it would be incorrect to say that German
is moving in the direction of the -s plural.
Hmm, with eight ways of forming a plural, is that also something that people
would seek to simplify when creating a new dialect, or is it likely that
they'll be comfortable with it as it is?

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Nigel Waite
2004-11-26 09:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Nigel Waite
Post by Good Habit
Post by David Kohlhoff
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
Your talking about some ATL German, I assume..., in OTL German endings
in s often indicate the grammatical genitive. If it should get
standardized, endigns in -ern, or -n would seem more plausibel to me.
German has eight ways of forming a plural, with the -s suffix being
the least common. Like most languages, German has a mechanism for
creating a plural for new coined words or words borrowed from other
languages. Generally if a new/borrowed word is similar to an existing
German word, it will get a similar plural. If a word falls outside
the range of core German words, it will get the -s plural - Auto/Autos
is one obvious example, but you also have Handy/Handys [1]. As far as
I know, there has been no sign of existing German words changing their
plurals to an -s suffix, so it would be incorrect to say that German
is moving in the direction of the -s plural.
Hmm, with eight ways of forming a plural, is that also something that people
would seek to simplify when creating a new dialect, or is it likely that
they'll be comfortable with it as it is?
OK, we're talking two seperate processes here:

1) The "natural" evolution of a language through everyday changes in
normal usage.

2) Prescribed changes made by some government/academic body (e.g. the
Academie Francaise).

For natural evolution, you are basically dealing with two major
influenses - that of listeners who want as much redundancy in the
language as possible to make comprehension easier and that of talkers
who want the language to be as simple to speak as possible. Many
iregular forms in a language are simply due to the fact that they are
easier to pronounce or that they provide necessary redundancy to aid
comprehension.

What looks like complexity to a non-native speaker is not normally
apparent to a native speaker of a language. In fact complexity in one
area of a language often allows flexibility or simplicity in another.
E.g. having a large number of declensions in the language allows you
to be far more flexible in the word-order of a sentance (see Latin, or
indeed German where the topic of a sentence is often brought to the
beginning). English, by contrast, actually has a more rigid word
order than German, but most native English speakers are unaware of
this.

If a language has an academic/government body which tries to regulate
that language, then that body is normally concerned with trying to
maintain the purity of the language (i.e. keeping out influences from
other languages). The body is not normally concerned with simplifying
a language and indeed will probably try and maintain the complexities
of a language as part of it's purity.

What you have with you're Neudeutsch is actually slightly different to
this. You presumably have some body that is trying to create a
language that can be used to unify the German Reich. In particular
this language has got to be easy for Geramn and Dutch speakers to
learn and make it easier to claim that Dutch is a dialect of German
rather than a seperate language[1].

I think that yes, Neudeutsch might see some simplification of plurals
compared to OTL High German. Dutch has two common plurals: the -s
suffix and the -en suffix, both of which are present in German. I can
see these plurals being used more often in Neudeutsch than in OTL
Hochdeutsch, but since the -en plural is far more common in German I
can see this being dominant in Neudeutsch and perhaps even being the
default plural ending for new coined/borrowed words.

Cheers,
Nigel.


[1] There is no real definition of the difference between a dialect
and a language (e.g compare the mutual comprehension of
Swedish/Norwegan/Danish language speakers with the mutual
incomprehension of the various Chinese dialects). The best functional
definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army of its
own.
Good Habit
2004-11-26 17:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Waite
The best functional
definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army of its
own.
So Swiss would qualify as a language :) - but unlike the Dutch, we
couldn't agree on a standardized spelling - and so we have now dialects
without a language....
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-28 03:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Nigel Waite
The best functional
definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army of its
own.
So Swiss would qualify as a language :) - but unlike the Dutch, we
couldn't agree on a standardized spelling - and so we have now dialects
without a language....
Trying to separate "language" and "dialect" is about as challenging as
trying to define "species" in biology, for much the same reasons: much of
the time there's no clear boundaries, and much of the time its a political
and/or religious question rather than a linguistic question. But the usual
version of that definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army
and a navy of its own... I'm not quite sure where that leaves Switzerland.
:)

ObWI: Lieutenant-General Heinz Guderian killed by "friendly" German
artillery on 1 September 1939. (German shells landed near his vehicle on
the first day of the German invasion of Poland). Would his absence make the
invasion of France easier/harder, or not much difference overall?

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-28 15:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
Post by Nigel Waite
The best functional
definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army of its
own.
So Swiss would qualify as a language :) - but unlike the Dutch, we
couldn't agree on a standardized spelling - and so we have now dialects
without a language....
But the usual
version of that definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army
and a navy of its own... I'm not quite sure where that leaves Switzerland.
:)
Oh, a navy fetishist ;) - in the same place as Czechs, Hungarians,
Slovaks, Serbs, Armenians, Mongolians, Laotians, Pasthuns - and (oh)
Kurds, Tibetans... (and many traditional African languages?/ dialects?...)
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
ObWI: Lieutenant-General Heinz Guderian killed by "friendly" German
artillery on 1 September 1939. (German shells landed near his vehicle on
the first day of the German invasion of Poland). Would his absence make the
invasion of France easier/harder, or not much difference overall?
I'm not in a position to comment who would be his likely replacement. :)
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-29 09:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Good Habit
Post by Nigel Waite
The best functional
definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army of its
own.
So Swiss would qualify as a language :) - but unlike the Dutch, we
couldn't agree on a standardized spelling - and so we have now dialects
without a language....
But the usual version of that definition is that a language is a dialect
that has an army and a navy of its own... I'm not quite sure where that
leaves Switzerland. :)
Oh, a navy fetishist ;) - in the same place as Czechs, Hungarians,
Slovaks, Serbs, Armenians, Mongolians, Laotians, Pasthuns - and (oh)
Kurds, Tibetans... (and many traditional African languages?/ dialects?...)
Oh, that's just the original quote, from Max Weinrich if I remember
correctly. But it illustrates the problems of distinguishing between, say,
Serbian and Croatian, or Catalan and Castillian. But, to bring this
somewhat back on-topic, the Dutch and Swiss German languages would both be
classed as dialects ATL, even if they weren't mutually intelligible. They
might even class Afrikaans as a German dialect, although that would be even
more unintelligible. (So I'm told, not knowing much Afrikaans).

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Nigel Waite
2004-11-30 07:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
Post by Good Habit
Post by Nigel Waite
The best functional
definition is that a language is a dialect that has an army of its
own.
So Swiss would qualify as a language :) - but unlike the Dutch, we
couldn't agree on a standardized spelling - and so we have now dialects
without a language....
But the usual version of that definition is that a language is a dialect
that has an army and a navy of its own... I'm not quite sure where that
leaves Switzerland. :)
Oh, a navy fetishist ;) - in the same place as Czechs, Hungarians,
Slovaks, Serbs, Armenians, Mongolians, Laotians, Pasthuns - and (oh)
Kurds, Tibetans... (and many traditional African languages?/ dialects?...)
Oh, that's just the original quote, from Max Weinrich if I remember
correctly. But it illustrates the problems of distinguishing between, say,
Serbian and Croatian, or Catalan and Castillian. But, to bring this
somewhat back on-topic, the Dutch and Swiss German languages would both be
classed as dialects ATL, even if they weren't mutually intelligible. They
might even class Afrikaans as a German dialect, although that would be even
more unintelligible. (So I'm told, not knowing much Afrikaans).
I somehow doubt that Dutch and Swiss German will ever be considered
mutually intelligible. Even in OTL many Germans have trouble
understanding Swiss Dialects. I think that the Swiss actually
encourage this. In Basel, for example, you can take courses to learn
Baseldytsch.

How about Yiddish ? If that is classed as yet another German dialect
to be integrated into Neudeutsch then it could have an important
effect on integrating Jews into the Reich - including many who would
otherwise consider themselves Polish. So is Neudeutsch going to pick
up some Yiddish vocabulary ?

Cheers,
Nigel.
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-30 10:30:25 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Nigel Waite
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Oh, that's just the original quote, from Max Weinrich if I remember
correctly. But it illustrates the problems of distinguishing between, say,
Serbian and Croatian, or Catalan and Castillian. But, to bring this
somewhat back on-topic, the Dutch and Swiss German languages would both be
classed as dialects ATL, even if they weren't mutually intelligible.
They
might even class Afrikaans as a German dialect, although that would be even
more unintelligible. (So I'm told, not knowing much Afrikaans).
I somehow doubt that Dutch and Swiss German will ever be considered
mutually intelligible. Even in OTL many Germans have trouble
understanding Swiss Dialects. I think that the Swiss actually
encourage this. In Basel, for example, you can take courses to learn
Baseldytsch.
Oh, they don't have to be mutually intelligible to be considered dialects
(as you pointed out earlier with the dialects of China), but they are still
thought of as dialects rather than separate languages, for political
reasons.
Post by Nigel Waite
How about Yiddish ? If that is classed as yet another German dialect
to be integrated into Neudeutsch then it could have an important
effect on integrating Jews into the Reich - including many who would
otherwise consider themselves Polish. So is Neudeutsch going to pick
up some Yiddish vocabulary ?
There will probably be some of it in there, yes. Jews are considered
honorary Germans ITTL.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/

Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-25 21:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
IIRC the German language is gradually moving in the direction of the 's'
Your talking about some ATL German, I assume..., in OTL German endings in
s often indicate the grammatical genitive. If it should get standardized,
endigns in -ern, or -n would seem more plausibel to me.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
plural instead of the other forms. In a simplified grammar I expect that
the number of plural forms would be reduced.
Sounds quite likely, with the rather large proviso that my knowledge of
German is extremely limited.
Post by David Kohlhoff
What would be likely in regard to 'die', 'das', and 'der'?
One of the things I'm pretty sure would be reduced would be the
application of grammatical gender.
Only if there's at least in one language where they don't exist (Dutch?) -
[I dunno any Dutch -]
- if not, many speakers might find this a loss in precision.
Does it lose any precision in cases where the words in question are
themselves not gender-related? This is something I need to check further,
but from my (hazy) knowledge of German grammar there's lots of instances
where grammatical gender is irrelevant to the actual gender of the object.
IIRC, gender has also been simplified in Dutch, but I'm open to correction
on that one.
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
I wonder if the number of declensions could be reduced or at least made
more rational.
Overall, the grammar will be quite simplified, perhaps partly on the
Dutch model, to make for easier learning by all concerned, including for
adoption by formerly non-German-speakers.
there could be less time forms, as (e.g) in Swiss German, were we have
only present, perfect (and future)
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
Which may work as long as the inspectors are not paid a bonus per person
turned in - in such a case, tipping migh raise suspicion, or would
have to
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by David Kohlhoff
be fairly high (and risky).
I suspect they're not, and tipping is more or less an expected behaviour
for aristocrats ITTL. For an aristocrat, not paying at
least >a nominal tip would probably be viewed strangely.
I have my doubts about the compatibility of a very aristocratic and still
very prosperous society, but...
Aristocrats are more socially honoured than having political power, for the
most part. Lots of "my lords" and friendly aristrocratic sponsors of
events, but not to the point of stifling growth. The German monarchy is
still around, for instance, but it doesn't wield much political power to
speak of.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Good Habit
2004-11-26 19:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Does it lose any precision in cases where the words in question are
themselves not gender-related?
Do you mean things?
like plural
das Buch (the book) die Bücher
das Auto (the car) die Autos
das Fahrrad (the bicycle) die Fahrräder
der Hut (the hat) die Hüte
das Messer (the knive) die Messer
die Schere (the scissor) die Scheren
der Wald (the forrest) die Wälder
die Schule (the school) die Schulen
die Strasse (the road) die Strassen
die Tomaten (the tomato) die Tomaten

I could see them simplified as *das* (neutral)
with plurals die Buchen #1, die Autos, Fahrraden, die Huten, die
Messers, die Scheren, die Walden, die Schulen, die Strassen, die
Tomaten, or if you really want to simplify it: die Autoen, die Messeren...

A bit more dificult it gets with plants:

die Eiche (the Oak) die Eichen
die Buche (the beech) die Buchen
der Ahorn (the Maple) the Ahorne
der Löwenzahn (the dandelion) die Löwenzahne
das Radischen (the raddish) die Radischen

but probably the simplification could do with *das* and an ending on
..en here as well.

So we come to animals:

die Kuh (the cow) die Kühe
der Stier (the bull) die Stiere
der Hund (the dog) die Hunde (not always gender specific)
die Hündin (the dog)(f) die Hündinnen (females)
die Gans (the goose) die Gänse
das Huhn (the chicken) die Hühner
der Hahn (the cock) die Hähne
der Hase (the rabbit) die Hasen
die Ziege (the goat) die Ziegen

Here I could see the continuation of male/female forms, as most animals
have a distinct gender, however we would need *die Huhn*, and a general
ending in -en. (and of course, no *umlauts*, die Kuhen, die Hundinnen,
die Huhnen, die Hahnen (although, this is the actual plural for tap.)

This is something I need to check further,
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
but from my (hazy) knowledge of German grammar there's lots of instances
where grammatical gender is irrelevant to the actual gender of the object.
IIRC, gender has also been simplified in Dutch, but I'm open to correction
on that one.
But this couldn't go for people

die Frau (the woman) die Frauen
der Mann (the man/male) die Männer
das Kind (the child) die Kinder
das Mädchen (the girl) die Mädchen
der Knabe (the boy) die Knaben
der Mensch (the man/human) die Menschen

and would certainly maintained where in English the definition of the
gender is difficult, as long as no *she*, or *he* is added, and this
would certainly be felt as a loss.

der Lehrer (the teacher/m) die Lehrer
die Lehrerin (the teacher/f) die Lehrerinnen
der Chef (the boss/m) die Chefs
die Chefin (the boss/f) die Chefinnen
der Sänger (the singer/m) die Sänger
die Sängerin (the singer/f) die Sängerinnen

So we would end up with die Mannen #2, die Kinden, die Mädchen or
Madchen (may be the umlaut would be dropped, and the singular changed to
die Matle (or something similar) with plural die Matlen, and would get
die Lehrern, die Chefen, and die Singer and die Singerinnen #3

(Forms not mentionned would remain unchanged).

#1 of course, the plural form die Buchen could meen the beeches and the
books, but this would probably be clear from context.
#2 this form (Mannen)is in fact used in some Swiss dialects as plural
for Mann.
#3 as the verb is singen (to sing), the change of the noun would
probably be a simplification as well.

Hope, this is some help

Cheers
Good Habit
Good Habit
2004-11-26 21:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Good Habit schrieb:

[repost with - hopefully - better colums and corrected singular of tomato.]
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Does it lose any precision in cases where the words in question are
themselves not gender-related?
Do you mean things?
like plural
das Buch (the book) die Bücher
das Auto (the car) die Autos
das Fahrrad (the bicycle) die Fahrräder
der Hut (the hat) die Hüte
das Messer (the knive) die Messer
die Schere (the scissor) die Scheren
der Wald (the forrest) die Wälder
die Schule (the school) die Schulen
die Strasse (the road) die Strassen
die Tomate (the tomato) die Tomaten
I could see them simplified as *das* (neutral)
with plurals die Buchen #1, die Autos, Fahrraden, die Huten, die
Messers, die Scheren, die Walden, die Schulen, die Strassen, die
Tomaten, or if you really want to simplify it: die Autoen, die Messeren...
die Eiche (the Oak) die Eichen
die Buche (the beech) die Buchen
der Ahorn (the Maple) die Ahorne
der Löwenzahn (the dandelion) die Löwenzahne
das Radischen (the raddish) die Radischen
but probably the simplification could do with *das* and an ending on
..en here as well.
die Kuh (the cow) die Kühe
der Stier (the bull) die Stiere
der Hund (the dog) die Hunde (not always gender specific)
die Hündin (the dog)(f) die Hündinnen (females)
die Gans (the goose) die Gänse
das Huhn (the chicken) die Hühner
der Hahn (the cock) die Hähne
der Hase (the rabbit) die Hasen
die Ziege (the goat) die Ziegen
Here I could see the continuation of male/female forms, as most animals
have a distinct gender, however we would need *die Huhn*, and a general
ending in -en. (and of course, no *umlauts*, die Kuhen, die Hundinnen,
die Huhnen, die Hahnen (although, this is the actual plural for tap.)
This is something I need to check further,
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
but from my (hazy) knowledge of German grammar there's lots of
instances where grammatical gender is irrelevant to the actual gender
of the object. IIRC, gender has also been simplified in Dutch, but I'm
open to correction on that one.
But this couldn't go for people
die Frau (the woman) die Frauen
der Mann (the man/male) die Männer
das Kind (the child) die Kinder
das Mädchen (the girl) die Mädchen
der Knabe (the boy) die Knaben
der Mensch (the man/human) die Menschen
and would certainly maintained where in English the definition of the
gender is difficult, as long as no *she*, or *he* is added, and this
would certainly be felt as a loss.
der Lehrer (the teacher/m) die Lehrer
die Lehrerin (the teacher/f) die Lehrerinnen
der Chef (the boss/m) die Chefs
die Chefin (the boss/f) die Chefinnen
der Sänger (the singer/m) die Sänger
die Sängerin (the singer/f) die Sängerinnen
So we would end up with die Mannen #2, die Kinden, die Mädchen or
Madchen (may be the umlaut would be dropped, and the singular changed to
die Matle (or something similar) with plural die Matlen, and would get
die Lehrern, die Chefen, and die Singer and die Singerinnen #3
(Forms not mentionned would remain unchanged).
#1 of course, the plural form die Buchen could meen the beeches and
the books, but this would probably be clear from context.
#2 this form (Mannen)is in fact used in some Swiss dialects as plural
for Mann.
#3 as the verb is singen (to sing), the change of the noun would
probably be a simplification as well.
Hope, this is some help
Cheers
Good Habit
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-28 03:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Does it lose any precision in cases where the words in question are
themselves not gender-related?
Do you mean things?
like plural das Buch (the book) die Bücher
das Auto (the car) die Autos
das Fahrrad (the bicycle) die Fahrräder
der Hut (the hat) die Hüte
das Messer (the knive) die Messer
die Schere (the scissor) die Scheren
der Wald (the forrest) die Wälder
die Schule (the school) die Schulen
die Strasse (the road) die Strassen
die Tomaten (the tomato) die Tomaten
I could see them simplified as *das* (neutral)
with plurals die Buchen #1, die Autos, Fahrraden, die Huten, die Messers,
die Scheren, die Walden, die Schulen, die Strassen, die Tomaten, or if you
really want to simplify it: die Autoen, die Messeren...
die Eiche (the Oak) die Eichen
die Buche (the beech) die Buchen
der Ahorn (the Maple) the Ahorne
der Löwenzahn (the dandelion) die Löwenzahne
das Radischen (the raddish) die Radischen
but probably the simplification could do with *das* and an ending on ..en
here as well.
die Kuh (the cow) die Kühe
der Stier (the bull) die Stiere
der Hund (the dog) die Hunde (not always gender specific)
die Hündin (the dog)(f) die Hündinnen (females)
die Gans (the goose) die Gänse
das Huhn (the chicken) die Hühner
der Hahn (the cock) die Hähne
der Hase (the rabbit) die Hasen
die Ziege (the goat) die Ziegen
Here I could see the continuation of male/female forms, as most animals
have a distinct gender, however we would need *die Huhn*, and a general
ending in -en. (and of course, no *umlauts*, die Kuhen, die Hundinnen, die
Huhnen, die Hahnen (although, this is the actual plural for tap.)
This is something I need to check further,
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
but from my (hazy) knowledge of German grammar there's lots of instances
where grammatical gender is irrelevant to the actual gender of the
object. IIRC, gender has also been simplified in Dutch, but I'm open to
correction on that one.
But this couldn't go for people
die Frau (the woman) die Frauen
der Mann (the man/male) die Männer
das Kind (the child) die Kinder
das Mädchen (the girl) die Mädchen
der Knabe (the boy) die Knaben
der Mensch (the man/human) die Menschen
and would certainly maintained where in English the definition of the
gender is difficult, as long as no *she*, or *he* is added, and this would
certainly be felt as a loss.
der Lehrer (the teacher/m) die Lehrer
die Lehrerin (the teacher/f) die Lehrerinnen
der Chef (the boss/m) die Chefs
die Chefin (the boss/f) die Chefinnen
der Sänger (the singer/m) die Sänger
die Sängerin (the singer/f) die Sängerinnen
So we would end up with die Mannen #2, die Kinden, die Mädchen or Madchen
(may be the umlaut would be dropped, and the singular changed to die Matle
(or something similar) with plural die Matlen, and would get die Lehrern,
die Chefen, and die Singer and die Singerinnen #3
(Forms not mentionned would remain unchanged).
#1 of course, the plural form die Buchen could meen the beeches and the
books, but this would probably be clear from context.
#2 this form (Mannen)is in fact used in some Swiss dialects as plural for
Mann.
#3 as the verb is singen (to sing), the change of the noun would probably
be a simplification as well.
Hope, this is some help
Yes, that's a lot of help. Writing up the basics of Neudeutsch grammar is
something I will get to soon after posting the end of the 2nd Napoleonic
Wars (which has been delayed since I've been redoing the African colonial
settlements), and the other couple of posts still in the works.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-24 08:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
It's still technically illegal ITTL too (Michelle thinks as much: tipping
the inspectors is a time-honoured if illegal aristocratic tradition).
But the enforcement varies. To be more precise, tipping to avoid the
bother of an actual search happens.
Which may work as long as the inspectors are not paid a bonus per person
turned in - in such a case, tipping migh raise suspicion, or would have to
be fairly high (and risky).
I suspect they're not, and tipping is more or less an expected behaviour for
aristocrats ITTL. For an aristocrat, not paying at least a nominal tip
would probably be viewed strangely.
Post by Good Habit
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Wagenbahn -
Yes, they will probably have "Wagens" instead of "autos",
OTL, the word Wagen (car) is not that uncommon in Germany - in Switzerland
it's allways Auto.. The plural would still be Wagen, but maybe this is a
Dutch grammatical form..
The grammar for Neudeutsch is still up in the air, at this stage. I will
try to finalise it, but as is probably painfully clear by now, my knowledge
of even OTL German isn't all that great.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
Randolph Finder
2004-11-23 20:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
So the US stretch MUCH further south, if Baja is still in the NORTH-West?
It's quite a safe assumption that the US border is going to end up further
south. Even in *1885, it stretches as far as Nicaragua, and will probably
go further.
Do we have anything definitive from the modern interludes that there
is *any* land in North America (south of OTL Cape May, NJ), the
Caribbean or South America which is not part of the United States? Or
are we going to find out how Buenos Aires voted in the 1976 USA
Presidential election?

Also, BTW, I noticed that OTL Bolivia is Charcas. Sort of surprised
the butterfly effects ended up hitting that area as quickly as that.

Randy
Kaiser Wilhelm III
2004-11-24 08:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randolph Finder
Post by Kaiser Wilhelm III
Post by Good Habit
So the US stretch MUCH further south, if Baja is still in the NORTH-West?
It's quite a safe assumption that the US border is going to end up further
south. Even in *1885, it stretches as far as Nicaragua, and will probably
go further.
Do we have anything definitive from the modern interludes that there
is *any* land in North America (south of OTL Cape May, NJ), the
Caribbean or South America which is not part of the United States?
Nothing definitive about that from either the interludes or the "historical
works". It has been mentioned in various posts that Mexico City, Veracruz
and Cuba are still part of the USA circa 1950. It's also been mentioned
that there are 77 states in the Union in 1949. As for the rest, well, this
is mostly a case of 'read and find out', if I can borrow another phrase.
Although I should point out that I don't have a set-in-concrete set of world
borders for the *1930s either... I have a rough idea, but one reason I avoid
specifying too many things is in case it turns out I need to change them due
to implausibility...
Post by Randolph Finder
Or
are we going to find out how Buenos Aires voted in the 1976 USA
Presidential election?
Even if the USA stretches that far south, they wouldn't necessarily adopt
turn all that territory into states. That would mean adopting rather a
large number of local citizens into the electorate, even with the US habit
of including only the wealthy...
Post by Randolph Finder
Also, BTW, I noticed that OTL Bolivia is Charcas. Sort of surprised
the butterfly effects ended up hitting that area as quickly as that.
The butterfly in question was that there was some European intervention
(mostly French) in the New World to support the Spanish attempts to
reconquer their former colonies. This only lasted a couple of years before
the British skittled the idea, but it produced various knock-on effects
around the place, including the name change. Bolivar was still around, but
he had other areas to liberate, and Peru/Bolivia won independence elsewhere.

Cheers,
Kaiser Wilhelm III
http://alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/
http://decadesofdarkness.blogspot.com/
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