Discussion:
The Prince of Peace 46: Escape from Trifels
(too old to reply)
Faeelin
2004-07-15 03:09:21 UTC
Permalink
"I must sing of what I do not want,
I am so angry with the one whom I loved,
Because I loved him more than anything:
But Mercy nor courtesy moves him,
Neither does my beauty, nor my worthiness, nor my good sense,
For I am deceived and betrayed
As much as I should be, if I were ugly"-Maria, Empress of Rome



Nuremberg, May 1235

Maria, Empress of Rome, continued writing her letter to her daughter. "I do
hope you are well, and, as always, I will endeavor to secure your release
from the Emperor. If God wills it, we shall see you for Christmas." She
looked over the letter and nodded. Taking out juice of lemons, she began to
write things in the margin. She had been doing this for years now, and she
had not been caught yet. If all went well, she wrote, Eleanor would be freed
from her imprisonment on the 4th of July. Smiling, she set the letter aside.

The Emperor entered her private chambers, in a surprisingly jovial mood.
"Italy will soon be taken care of," he said [147]. He was courteous, as
always, to his wife. "Writing another letter?" he said, looking at it.

Maria nodded. "Something to take up my time, in addition to the loom. Will
you not reconsider your treatment of Eleanor? She is your stepdaughter,
after all."

Frederick paused as if to consider it. "Perhaps," he said at last. "May I
see your letter?" Maria passed it to the Emperor. Then Frederick smiled and
placed it over the flame of a candle.

Maria's heart stopped. Her message began appearing. Frederick savored her
reaction, and had to resist the urge to gloat. "I've known about what you've
been planning for years, Maria. About your plan to free your daughter. How
you wanted to work with the King of the Greeks to overthrow me and take
Sicily back." Frederick had to grind out the words. "About how you wanted to
assassinate me, and place Henry in my place."
"How did you know?" asked Maria. "It was thought out so carefully!"

Frederick smirked. "Come now. The Empress begins acquiring quantities of
lemon juice and takes to writing long winded letters?" He paused, and then
added another line. "I had you watched, as well."

They were silent for several minutes, as Frederick stared at his wife.
"Why?" he said at last. "What did I do to you, that you hate me so?"

Maria looked as if she could kill him. "You imprisoned my daughter. You
tried to kill my grandson. What did you expect, that I would scatter rose
petals before the feet of our glorious Emperor?"

Frederick began to get angry. "Your sister married a rebel against the
Empire, and hoped to use Aquitane as a stronghold against me. Your grandson
is the last true heir of the Capetians and Plantagenets. He must go." He
stared at his wife. "I did what was necessary to ensure peace. You of all
people should understand that."

"Assassination?" said Frederick. "Consorting with Greeks?" Frederick said
this without emotion. "You hated me that much?"

"More."

At that point, Maria broke down in tears. Despite himself, Frederick found
himself going towards her. She was his wife, after all.

"Hush," he said. "We'll get you to a nunnery with your daughter. I will not
free her, but at least she shall not be alone." Maria sobbed, and reached
for a dagger on her desk while Frederick was distracted. He knocked it aside
and pushed her back.

Maria tripped backwards, and fumbled over a piece of furniture. She
desperately flailed her arms, but to no avail. It was at that point that she
fell out of the window. She hit the ground with a loud thud mere moments
later.

Frederick looked down at the corpse, or what remained of it. "The Empress,"
he told his guard, who had been waiting outside the entire time, "has
fallen. Attend to her corpse, and leave me be."

History would record that Frederick II, the Wonder of the World, cared
little for his wife. After all, he had no problem having affairs on the
side, and having several bastards. And aside from his attitude towards his
children, the Emperor was never known for being particularly soft and
sentimental. It was rumored by some that the Emperor had pushed his wife, or
had some one else do it. And there would be many historians, in the future,
who would believe it.

Historians would never know, after all, that, by himself in his wife's
chambers, Frederick II wept.


"As the desire to sing takes hold of me,
I will make a song about my sorrow;
I will no longer be a servant of love
In Poitou nor in Ile de France.

For now I will go into exile:
In great fear, in great peril,
In war, I will leave my son
And the Caesar will harm him.

I seek mercy on my companion
If I have ever wronged him, may he pardon me,
And I pray to Jesus on the throne,
In French and in Latin.

I have left behind all that I once loved
Chivalry and pride;
And since it pleases God, I accept all that
And pray Him to retain me in His presence

Thus I renounce joy and pleasure
The brown, grey, and sable furs."-Eleanor of Aquitane, in Trifels


Trifels, July 1235

Du Lac fixed his robes carefully. Posing as a respectable monk, sent here to
tutor the poor Duchess Eleanor, he knew he had to look the part. People
would begin to question just why he spoke with a Poitevin accent, and begin
to wonder if the Emperor had approved of his visit.

Trifels was a tall, imposing castle that dominated the landscape. It had
been the site of Richard the Lionheart's imprisonment, and, it was rumored,
the castle where the antipope Innocent III had lived out his final days.
Lancelot shivered as he approached its walls.

"Pax Vobiscum," he said to the two guards at the gate. "I am a tutor for the
poor child Eleanor of Aquitaine, daughter of the former Empress. I have been
sent by the Caesar himself to tutor the child and bring her back to the
fold." He gestured at the two nuns and the other monk. "They are here to
help me, of course."

One of the guards guffawed. "Help you with what?" Lancelot glared at him, as
any proper monk should. He produced a letter bearing the Emperor's seal,
which had been produced by a forger in Bristol.

Du Lac smiled inwardly as the guards read the letter slowly. He was but a
minor noble, true. But just because he was a minor one did not mean he could
sit by while the rightful Duchess of Aquitaine was imprisoned in a castle by
the Emperor It was an unchristian thing to do.

He climbed to the highest room of the tallest tower, with the other monks
and nuns in tower, past the other guards. "My Lady," called Du Lac, "I have
been sent to instruct you."

Eleanor sat before him, dressed in black. "Oh, another one of the Emperor's
lackeys?" she said, looking up from a Bible. "I am a tad busy, as you see. I
am reading the Book of Revelations." She smiled. "There are quite a few
similarities to the Emperor in here, you know."

Du Lac looked to make sure the door was closed, and nodded to the other
"monk", who began lecturing her on modesty, chastity, and obedience.
Lancelot leaned close to Eleanor. "Frankly, my Duchess, I don't care if the
Four Horsemen ride out of Nuremberg tomorrow. I am Du Lac, and I am here to
rescue you."

Eleanor blinked. "You are who?"

A few hours later, Du Lac, the other monk, and the nuns walked out of
Trifels. Du Lac sighed walking by the guards. "The strumpet, I fear, has yet
to be conciliated to her new surroundings."

One of the guards laughed. "Yes, she is a whore, isn't she? Always
complaining and sobbing. " He became seriously quickly, however. "But we
have received word from the Emperor himself that some one might try to help
her escape." The guard eyed the nuns. "Disguising her, perhaps. We will have
to check to be sure."

Du Lac looked at the nuns nervously. "Good man, I must protest! These are
women of God!"

"Then God won't mind, will he? He would understand that we do this for the
Empire." The guards began checking the nuns most thoroughly as they blushed.
At long last, they were apparently satisfied. "Pass on, pass on." One of the
guards gave the other monk an odd look, but said nothing.

One of the guards walked up to Du Lac and apologized. "Forgive me, good
monk. We had merely received word that some one had been sent to help the
Duchess escape from the justice she richly deserves."

Du Lac nodded sagely. "And indeed, God smiles upon your efforts. I am
certain that she will receive everything she deserves."

The other monk spoke up. "Yes, indeed she will."

As they rode on, the other monk took off her hood, revealing the radiant
Eleanor of Aquitaine.

"A strumpet?" she said. "Surely you think that was a bit much?" She looked
behind them, at the Castle Trifels. "How long do you think, good knight, it
will be before they realize I am gone?"

Du Loc pulled out a telescope and looked at the castle. He could make out
men on horseback running down the hill. He turned towards Eleanor. "About
now, I would say." And with that, he and Eleanor galloped off towards the
channel, and passage to England.

"One thing," said Eleanor, as they rode, "I do not know the name of my
rescuer."

Du Loc thought for a moment. "My name," he said gravely, "Is Lancelot Du
Loc."

Eleanor thought about asking which lake, but remained silent. "Very well,
Lancelot of the Lake. I am with you."


(The Poems are actually by La Comtess de Dia, and Guillame IX, Duke of
Aquitane)

Emden, July 1238

Lancelot Du Lac looked over the city and sneered. Filthy streets home to
smugglers and pirates. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and
villainy," he said.

Eleanor looked over the cities, and stared at the ships in the dock
thoughtfully. "Excellent," she said. "That means the Emperor will never
think to look for us here."

Emden was one of the many cities that had thrived as a result of the Emperor
's attempts to forbid trade with England. The continent needed English wool,
especially in Flanders. Even Eleanor had heard rumors of discontent from
that land, as the Kaiser's efforts to forbid the import of wool had been
ignored.

The people of Emden had taken to smuggling with gusto. They were, after all,
a good sensible people, who would never let trade be interrupted by
something as trivial as a war over the salvation of mankind and the
restoration of Rome's glory.

Therefore, Emden was an ideal place for those who wished to pass to and from
the Empire sail to England. A dangerous city, to be sure, but one in which,
it was said, anything could be had for a price.

Lancelot ended up taking Eleanor with him, for lack of a better option, to a
tavern on the harbor. A few words at the bar, and he ended up sitting with a
captain by the name of Hans Soren.

He nodded to Eleanor and the two sat down. Eleanor looked around her at the
chaos, the fights, and the drunken men. She made a show of placing a dagger
in her hand while Eleanor discussed the price with Hans.

Hans leaned in close over the table. "My partner Christian tells me that you
're looking for passage to England."

Lancelot looked around and decided it was safe to speak. "Yes, if it's a
fast ship."

Hans laughed. "Fast ship? You've never heard of the Adler Jahrtausend?"

Eleanor spoke up. "Should I have?"

Hans waved about the tavern. "It made the Bergen run in twelve days!"

Eleanor remained unimpressed as Hans continued. "I've outrun Hansa ships
serving the Emperor, you know. Not the local river barges, but good Hamburg
ships. She's fast enough for you, boy. What's the cargo?"

Lancelot looked around. "Two passengers. Myself and the girl. No questions
asked."

"What is it?" asked Hans. "Some kind of local trouble?"

Eleanor smiled. "Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial
entanglements." [148]

Hans leaned back and smiled. "Well, that's the trick, isn't it? And it's
going to cost you. A thousand denarii, all in advance."

"A thousand denarii?" said Lancelot. "We could almost buy our own ship for
that!"

"And who's going to sail it, my lord? You?" Hans sneered.

Eleanor held Lancelot's hand down firmly. "We will pay you two hundred now,
fifteen hundred on arrival in London."

"Seventeen hundred, huh?" Hans rubbed his chin. "Alright, I'll take it."


[147] I underestimated the Emperor's strength in Italy. As in Japan
underestimated America's industrial strength in WW2.

[148] Ah, if only he'd brought along a Troubadour.

Okay, enough joking, for now. The next post will deal with the thing you've
all been waiting for: The fiscal policies of the Empire and it relation to
the gold supply coming on caravans from Tunis.
Anthony Mayer
2004-07-15 10:48:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:09:21 +0100, Faeelin wrote:

This is fantastic fun - I like the way you've got some comic relief in
with the serious stuff. Wonderful.
Post by Faeelin
"Assassination?" said Frederick. "Consorting with Greeks?" Frederick
said this without emotion. "You hated me that much?"
I love it - "Consorting with Greeks?"
Post by Faeelin
Trifels was a tall, imposing castle that dominated the landscape.
Have you seen Trifels? It's quite a sight. If you're in the area I'd check
out Fleckenstein as well, awe inspiring stuff.
Post by Faeelin
"Pax Vobiscum," he said to the two guards at the gate. "I am a tutor for
the poor child Eleanor of Aquitaine, daughter of the former Empress. I
have been sent by the Caesar himself to tutor the child and bring her
back to the fold." He gestured at the two nuns and the other monk. "They
are here to help me, of course."
I'm sensing _Blanche_ here. The princess, the tower, the armed monks and
the Emperor.
Post by Faeelin
Eleanor smiled. "Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial
entanglements." [148]
It was inevitable really. ISTR us joking about this before, and googling I
find you saying " And I just had this strange vision of roger guiscard
telling the pope he wants to avoid any imperial entanglements."
Post by Faeelin
Hans leaned back and smiled. "Well, that's the trick, isn't it? And it's
going to cost you. A thousand denarii, all in advance."
Okay, enough joking, for now. The next post will deal with the thing
you've all been waiting for: The fiscal policies of the Empire and it
relation to the gold supply coming on caravans from Tunis.
I am actually looking forward to this. Keep it up!
--
Anthony Mayer
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~aem3
Faeelin
2004-07-15 17:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Mayer
This is fantastic fun - I like the way you've got some comic relief in
with the serious stuff. Wonderful.
Well, I needed something a bit more lighthearted after the scene with Maria.
The sad part is that future historians will never know the whole story.
Post by Anthony Mayer
Post by Faeelin
Trifels was a tall, imposing castle that dominated the landscape.
Have you seen Trifels? It's quite a sight. If you're in the area I'd check
out Fleckenstein as well, awe inspiring stuff.
Not yet, alas. The only European nation I've been to so far is the UK. I
have talked to people who've seen it, and even today, in its less than full
state, it's impressive. There's a reason it was called the key to the
Empire.
Post by Anthony Mayer
Post by Faeelin
"Pax Vobiscum," he said to the two guards at the gate. "I am a tutor for
the poor child Eleanor of Aquitaine, daughter of the former Empress. I
have been sent by the Caesar himself to tutor the child and bring her
back to the fold." He gestured at the two nuns and the other monk. "They
are here to help me, of course."
I'm sensing _Blanche_ here. The princess, the tower, the armed monks and
the Emperor.
It seemed appropriate. Not like the middle ages are lacking in escapes from
castles, after all, and if the Emperor can focus his full attention on
Italy, ooh boy.
Post by Anthony Mayer
Post by Faeelin
Eleanor smiled. "Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial
entanglements." [148]
It was inevitable really. ISTR us joking about this before, and googling I
find you saying " And I just had this strange vision of roger guiscard
telling the pope he wants to avoid any imperial entanglements."
Ah yes, the Sicilian Republic. Sicily will be fun.
Post by Anthony Mayer
Post by Faeelin
Hans leaned back and smiled. "Well, that's the trick, isn't it? And it's
going to cost you. A thousand denarii, all in advance."
Okay, enough joking, for now. The next post will deal with the thing
you've all been waiting for: The fiscal policies of the Empire and it
relation to the gold supply coming on caravans from Tunis.
I am actually looking forward to this. Keep it up!
Thank you. Now when will we see more of the Necklace?
Daniel McCollum
2004-07-15 15:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Another great entry and I thought that I should tell you as much,
since you were good enough to post under my WI as well. Sadly oyu
seem to be the ONLY person to respond to it, but oh well :)

This TL is getting pretty good; a Germany which dominates Europe
and, despite some political unrest, it would seem that it will
continue to do so for quiet some years longer. I wonder how Henry
will rule when his time comes; he seems as if he'll be more
compasionate that his Father at the very least. Was Frederick II
reall that cold and brutal in OTL?

Anyway, good to see another Middle Ages WI doing well. Keep up the
good work.

BTW; whats going on in Ireland right now? I would expect that with
the fall of the English Monarchy that the Pale was whitteled away to
almost nothing if it hasn't actually ceased to exist.
Faeelin
2004-07-15 17:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel McCollum
Another great entry and I thought that I should tell you as much,
since you were good enough to post under my WI as well. Sadly oyu
seem to be the ONLY person to respond to it, but oh well :)
Oh, come now. It's a medieval Timeline.You're not goign to get many
responses.
Post by Daniel McCollum
This TL is getting pretty good; a Germany which dominates Europe
and, despite some political unrest, it would seem that it will
continue to do so for quiet some years longer.
It's not quite Germany. It's an empire that merely happens to be based in
Germany, and has significant French, Flemish, Czech, Slav, parts.

The actual organization of the Empire is for the next post.
Post by Daniel McCollum
I wonder how Henry
will rule when his time comes; he seems as if he'll be more
compasionate that his Father at the very least.
A bit. He has some odd ideas on governing, which have to do with reading
Aurelius's Meditations as a kid.
Post by Daniel McCollum
Was Frederick II
reall that cold and brutal in OTL?
Oh, yes. He was, to be blunt, a sunnofabitch. The scenes with the criminals
and their stomach, for instance, is OTL. He also had infants raises without
being spoken to, so he could see what humanity's "natural" language was.

He wasn't as stubborn as he is in Prince of Peace, but then he didn't have
Europe handed to him on a platter, either.

Of course, he wasn't necessarily a _bad_ guy. He protected jews, for
instance, and he was willing to make use of muslims in certain roles. He was
capable of conducting diplomacy with them, as well, although he wasn't as
good at that as Roger II.

For a good book on him that avoids hagiography, check out Abulafia's
Frederick II.
Post by Daniel McCollum
Anyway, good to see another Middle Ages WI doing well. Keep up the
good work.
Thanks.
Post by Daniel McCollum
BTW; whats going on in Ireland right now? I would expect that with
the fall of the English Monarchy that the Pale was whitteled away to
almost nothing if it hasn't actually ceased to exist.
I don't see why Frederick II would've abandoned it.
Doug Hoff
2004-07-16 02:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
Another great entry and I thought that I should tell you as much,
since you were good enough to post under my WI as well. Sadly oyu
seem to be the ONLY person to respond to it, but oh well :)
Oh, come now. It's a medieval Timeline.You're not goign to get many
responses.
Ja. I have been reading it and shame on me for not thumbs'-upping.
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
Was Frederick II
reall that cold and brutal in OTL?
Oh, yes. He was, to be blunt, a sunnofabitch. The scenes with the criminals
and their stomach, for instance, is OTL. He also had infants raises without
being spoken to, so he could see what humanity's "natural" language was.
He wasn't as stubborn as he is in Prince of Peace, but then he didn't have
Europe handed to him on a platter, either.
Of course, he wasn't necessarily a _bad_ guy. He protected jews, for
instance, and he was willing to make use of muslims in certain roles.
With a little ethnic cleansing in Sicily, to be sure. (which was not beyond
the norm of its time, really) But yeah, he was much more congenial towards
the Muslims than most Christian statesmen of his era.
Post by Faeelin
He was
capable of conducting diplomacy with them, as well,
A condominium in the Holy Land on the cheap. While excommunicated.
*snicker* My favorite FII- related thing is how that must have sent il Papa
into a spluttering rage.
Post by Faeelin
For a good book on him that avoids hagiography, check out Abulafia's
Frederick II.
I like Abulafia, myself. I have the Short Oxford History of Italy volume -
Italy in the Central Middle Ages - which he edited and contributed to. His
chapter on 'The Italian Other' (Greeks, Jews, Muslims) is very interesting.
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
Anyway, good to see another Middle Ages WI doing well. Keep up the
good work.
Of course, seconded.
--
----------

Doug

I like the Fourth of July. It breathes the spirit of revolution.

Eugene Debs

***@dhoff5767.eiomail.com
(replace the 2 with a 3 and you have my shwi e-mail address)

www.althist.com
Faeelin
2004-07-16 02:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faeelin
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
Another great entry and I thought that I should tell you as much,
since you were good enough to post under my WI as well. Sadly oyu
seem to be the ONLY person to respond to it, but oh well :)
Was Frederick II
reall that cold and brutal in OTL?
Oh, yes. He was, to be blunt, a sunnofabitch. The scenes with the
criminals
Post by Faeelin
and their stomach, for instance, is OTL. He also had infants raises
without
Post by Faeelin
being spoken to, so he could see what humanity's "natural" language was.
He wasn't as stubborn as he is in Prince of Peace, but then he didn't have
Europe handed to him on a platter, either.
Of course, he wasn't necessarily a _bad_ guy. He protected jews, for
instance, and he was willing to make use of muslims in certain roles.
With a little ethnic cleansing in Sicily, to be sure. (which was not beyond
the norm of its time, really)
What else could he do? The Muslims were irredentists in the 13th century.
Post by Faeelin
But yeah, he was much more congenial towards
the Muslims than most Christian statesmen of his era.
Spain did ok. Frederick has to be seen in the context of a norman/sicilian
ruler.
Post by Faeelin
Post by Faeelin
He was
capable of conducting diplomacy with them, as well,
A condominium in the Holy Land on the cheap. While excommunicated.
*snicker* My favorite FII- related thing is how that must have sent il Papa
into a spluttering rage.
Oh, yes.

I forgot to mention his assassination of his son.
Post by Faeelin
Post by Faeelin
For a good book on him that avoids hagiography, check out Abulafia's
Frederick II.
I like Abulafia, myself. I have the Short Oxford History of Italy volume -
Italy in the Central Middle Ages - which he edited and contributed to.
His
Post by Faeelin
chapter on 'The Italian Other' (Greeks, Jews, Muslims) is very
interesting.

He's good. You have to look elsewhere for germany, but he's good.
Doug Hoff
2004-07-16 04:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
Of course, he wasn't necessarily a _bad_ guy. He protected jews, for
instance, and he was willing to make use of muslims in certain roles.
With a little ethnic cleansing in Sicily, to be sure. (which was not
beyond
Post by Doug Hoff
the norm of its time, really)
What else could he do? The Muslims were irredentists in the 13th century.
Yep. I am not saying that he was beyond-the-pale of nasty things people did
to each other during the time period. And, from what I understand, the
exiled Muslims did not do all that bad on the mainland.
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Doug Hoff
But yeah, he was much more congenial towards
the Muslims than most Christian statesmen of his era.
Spain did ok.
Yeah, I have discovered a lot more flexibility on the peninsula than I
expected to.
Post by Doug Hoff
I forgot to mention his assassination of his son.
Yeah, that was pretty hard core.
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
For a good book on him that avoids hagiography, check out Abulafia's
Frederick II.
I like Abulafia, myself. I have the Short Oxford History of Italy
volume -
Post by Doug Hoff
Italy in the Central Middle Ages - which he edited and contributed to.
His
Post by Doug Hoff
chapter on 'The Italian Other' (Greeks, Jews, Muslims) is very
interesting.
He's good. You have to look elsewhere for germany, but he's good.
Interestingly, he has the same last name as a reasonably well-known
Kabbalist rabbi of the period, too.
--
----------

Doug

I like the Fourth of July. It breathes the spirit of revolution.

Eugene Debs

***@dhoff5767.eiomail.com
(replace the 2 with a 3 and you have my shwi e-mail address)

www.althist.com
Faeelin
2004-07-16 12:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
What else could he do? The Muslims were irredentists in the 13th century.
Yep. I am not saying that he was beyond-the-pale of nasty things people did
to each other during the time period. And, from what I understand, the
exiled Muslims did not do all that bad on the mainland.
The Emperor liked them, although I bet a fair bit of this was due to the
papacy's taunts about it.
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
Post by Doug Hoff
But yeah, he was much more congenial towards
the Muslims than most Christian statesmen of his era.
Spain did ok.
Yeah, I have discovered a lot more flexibility on the peninsula than I
expected to.
Indeed. We tend to get a bit of a biased view, in general history, because
we all "know" the papist spaniards were foes of liberty, who did various
horrible things.
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
I forgot to mention his assassination of his son.
Yeah, that was pretty hard core.
Indeed. And I liked Henry (VII). Let's hope ATL's can do better.
Doug Hoff
2004-07-17 15:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faeelin
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
Spain did ok.
Yeah, I have discovered a lot more flexibility on the peninsula than I
expected to.
Indeed. We tend to get a bit of a biased view, in general history, because
we all "know" the papist spaniards were foes of liberty, who did various
horrible things.
Well, I think the Spanish might themselves be somewhat to blame. I mean,
AFAIK, their central national myth for a long time was the supposedly
remorseless war, pushing the Christian frontier down the peninsula until
finally ejecting the Muslims alltogether. Details like Muslim rulers siding
with one Christian king against another do not fit neatly into that story.
It also fits neatly with the Anglophone sense of 'Spanish cruelty,' so it
gains traction.
Post by Faeelin
Post by Doug Hoff
Post by Faeelin
I forgot to mention his assassination of his son.
Yeah, that was pretty hard core.
Indeed. And I liked Henry (VII). Let's hope ATL's can do better.
I imagine we will find out. ;-)
--
----------

Doug

I like the Fourth of July. It breathes the spirit of revolution.

Eugene Debs

***@dhoff5767.eiomail.com
(replace the 2 with a 3 and you have my shwi e-mail address)

www.althist.com
Daniel McCollum
2004-07-16 05:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
BTW; whats going on in Ireland right now? I would expect that with
the fall of the English Monarchy that the Pale was whitteled away to
almost nothing if it hasn't actually ceased to exist.
I don't see why Frederick II would've abandoned it.
Its not wether he'd abandon it or not, its wether he could HOLD it.
We're talking about a region of fronteir which happens to also be on
the furthest reaches of an Empire which is busy attempting to hold
down much of Europe.

If you ever reach much about the Pale it was a region that was in
near constant flux. Although much of the ruling class considered
itself nominally English they were under near constant preassure from
Gaelic princes outside the Pale who would continually raid, as well as
by a majority of their own population which was beginning to see
itself as 'Irish'(even if by 'Irish' they didn't have to much in
common with the Irishmen outside of the Pale). These English lords
were very independant and had, in many ways, just become powerful Ri
in their own right; ex. the Fitzgeraldss.

Frederick is not only going to have to hold this region during
times of peace, he will have to do so while England is in rebellion
against him. No doubt he will pull which ever troops are on Ireland
back in order to deal with the insurrection. There is a good chance
that the Scottish King will try to hold some of the lands; but he's
also trying to project his power into Norway as well as defend his new
Kingdom from renewed German invasion.

The pale withered in OTL until the coming of the Tutors who
restablished control and expanded it over the whole of the island. In
your TL, however, both Germany and England just have much more
pressing matters than what a group of backwoods barbarians are doing.
As long as the Irish stay to themselves, the Pale is going to die off
due to neglect; the Duke's will be left to their own ways and it won't
be long before one decided to renig his allegiance to Longdon and gets
away with it, or some Clann Ri mananges to drive away some of the
other Lords and take large peices of territory.
Faeelin
2004-07-16 12:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel McCollum
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
BTW; whats going on in Ireland right now? I would expect that with
the fall of the English Monarchy that the Pale was whitteled away to
almost nothing if it hasn't actually ceased to exist.
I don't see why Frederick II would've abandoned it.
Its not wether he'd abandon it or not, its wether he could HOLD it.
We're talking about a region of fronteir which happens to also be on
the furthest reaches of an Empire which is busy attempting to hold
down much of Europe.
Not hold. Bring them into the benefits of pax romana under the most augustus
Emperors.
Post by Daniel McCollum
If you ever reach much about the Pale it was a region that was in
near constant flux. Although much of the ruling class considered
itself nominally English they were under near constant preassure from
Gaelic princes outside the Pale who would continually raid, as well as
by a majority of their own population which was beginning to see
itself as 'Irish'(even if by 'Irish' they didn't have to much in
common with the Irishmen outside of the Pale). These English lords
were very independant and had, in many ways, just become powerful Ri
in their own right; ex. the Fitzgeraldss.
So wouldn't they prefer Frederick to Emperor Alexander of Britannia?
Post by Daniel McCollum
Frederick is not only going to have to hold this region during
times of peace, he will have to do so while England is in rebellion
against him. No doubt he will pull which ever troops are on Ireland
back in order to deal with the insurrection. There is a good chance
that the Scottish King will try to hold some of the lands; but he's
also trying to project his power into Norway as well as defend his new
Kingdom from renewed German invasion.
Indeed. Why do I suspect you will next tell me that Ireland could be united,
in this chaotic era? :P
Daniel McCollum
2004-07-16 18:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
BTW; whats going on in Ireland right now? I would expect that with
the fall of the English Monarchy that the Pale was whitteled away to
almost nothing if it hasn't actually ceased to exist.
I don't see why Frederick II would've abandoned it.
Its not wether he'd abandon it or not, its wether he could HOLD it.
We're talking about a region of fronteir which happens to also be on
the furthest reaches of an Empire which is busy attempting to hold
down much of Europe.
Not hold. Bring them into the benefits of pax romana under the most augustus
Emperors.
Tomato tomahto :)
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
If you ever reach much about the Pale it was a region that was in
near constant flux. Although much of the ruling class considered
itself nominally English they were under near constant preassure from
Gaelic princes outside the Pale who would continually raid, as well as
by a majority of their own population which was beginning to see
itself as 'Irish'(even if by 'Irish' they didn't have to much in
common with the Irishmen outside of the Pale). These English lords
were very independant and had, in many ways, just become powerful Ri
in their own right; ex. the Fitzgeraldss.
So wouldn't they prefer Frederick to Emperor Alexander of Britannia?
The English citizens of the Pale? Certainly not, Alexander would be
much preferable to them, especially as Frederick is going to most
likely have to pull what ever troops he has in the Pale out, leaving
them at the mercy of the 'savages' of the interior. The people of the
interior? I doubt it; some might consider giving fealty to Frederick
under the idea that he is far away and Alexader is closer but that
would be a stretch. These are independant minded Gaelic cheiftans and
the last time one of them swore fealty to an outside King is left the
Normans in control of much of the island. Also there isn't exactly
much of a nationalistic feeling at this point; 'tis several centuries
too soon, so allying with Frederick against England for the 'good of
Ireland' is out of the question.
Post by Faeelin
Post by Daniel McCollum
Frederick is not only going to have to hold this region during
times of peace, he will have to do so while England is in rebellion
against him. No doubt he will pull which ever troops are on Ireland
back in order to deal with the insurrection. There is a good chance
that the Scottish King will try to hold some of the lands; but he's
also trying to project his power into Norway as well as defend his new
Kingdom from renewed German invasion.
Indeed. Why do I suspect you will next tell me that Ireland could be united,
in this chaotic era? :P
Not at all; that would just be foolish. The only way to get a
'united ireland' would be for it to be conquered by an outside force.
I'm just arguing that the 'Pale' which dwindled in OTL during this
time period is going to be almost dead in this ATL; my bet would be
that the Emperor of Britania will be lucky to hold Dublin and Wexford
and Waterford.

Hell, there is even the chance that Frederick still has control of
these ports which makes the Imperial standoff all the more
interesting.
Nick Pedley
2004-07-15 22:30:08 UTC
Permalink
"Faeelin" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:BzmJc.47449$***@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
SNIP
Post by Faeelin
Emden, July 1238
Lancelot Du Lac looked over the city and sneered. Filthy streets home to
smugglers and pirates. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and
villainy," he said.
LOL! Excellent! I never thought to expect such lines in a mediaeval setting
but they do fit nicely. :-)
BTW, I've lost track of the storyline by now but I can see this as a shwi
classic in need of collecting on a website. Keep up the good work.

Nick
Faeelin
2004-07-16 00:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Pedley
SNIP
Post by Faeelin
Emden, July 1238
Lancelot Du Lac looked over the city and sneered. Filthy streets home to
smugglers and pirates. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum
and
Post by Faeelin
villainy," he said.
LOL! Excellent! I never thought to expect such lines in a mediaeval setting
but they do fit nicely. :-)
You didn't think that would fit in a medieval setting? Good god, have you
never been to Edinburgh?
Post by Nick Pedley
BTW, I've lost track of the storyline by now but I can see this as a shwi
classic in need of collecting on a website. Keep up the good work.
Yes, I think the stoyrline does need summing up.

It can be found, in detail, here http://www.geocities.com/drammos/PoP1.html
Nick Pedley
2004-07-16 16:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Pedley
Post by Nick Pedley
SNIP
Post by Faeelin
Emden, July 1238
Lancelot Du Lac looked over the city and sneered. Filthy streets home to
smugglers and pirates. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum
and
Post by Faeelin
villainy," he said.
LOL! Excellent! I never thought to expect such lines in a mediaeval
setting
Post by Nick Pedley
but they do fit nicely. :-)
You didn't think that would fit in a medieval setting? Good god, have you
never been to Edinburgh?
Yeah, but only twice and then to the main shopping stretch. Maybe I should
head up there for an extended visit one year....
Post by Nick Pedley
Post by Nick Pedley
BTW, I've lost track of the storyline by now but I can see this as a shwi
classic in need of collecting on a website. Keep up the good work.
Yes, I think the stoyrline does need summing up.
It can be found, in detail, here
http://www.geocities.com/drammos/PoP1.html
Thank you very much!
Nick
p***@removeme.scranton.edu
2004-07-16 19:50:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:38:12 +0100, "Nick Pedley"
Post by Faeelin
Post by Faeelin
Yes, I think the stoyrline does need summing up.
It can be found, in detail, here
http://www.geocities.com/drammos/PoP1.html
Thank you very much!
Nick
Thanks, Fae.:-)
Sydney Webb
2004-07-18 10:44:54 UTC
Permalink
I suppose we should be grateful that this episode is not entitled "The
Day of the Trifels" or "The Trouble with Trifels".

Faeelin wrote:

<snip adventures comparable to Joseph Campbell at his best>
Post by Faeelin
The next post will deal with the thing you've
all been waiting for: The fiscal policies of the Empire and it relation to
the gold supply coming on caravans from Tunis.
Hurrah!

- Syd
Faeelin
2004-07-18 17:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sydney Webb
I suppose we should be grateful that this episode is not entitled "The
Day of the Trifels" or "The Trouble with Trifels".
Ah. Err. Right.
Post by Sydney Webb
<snip adventures comparable to Joseph Campbell at his best>
Joseph Campbell of that Hero's cycle? Thanks, although I didn't know he
actually wrote something.
Daniel McCollum
2004-07-18 23:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faeelin
Post by Sydney Webb
I suppose we should be grateful that this episode is not entitled "The
Day of the Trifels" or "The Trouble with Trifels".
Ah. Err. Right.
Post by Sydney Webb
<snip adventures comparable to Joseph Campbell at his best>
Joseph Campbell of that Hero's cycle? Thanks, although I didn't know he
actually wrote something.
Christ; the man wrote a ton of books and you should really check
them out, their genius. "The Hero Cycle" is one of the best known,
but he did quiet a few more.
Sydney Webb
2004-07-21 13:22:20 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Faeelin
Post by Sydney Webb
<snip adventures comparable to Joseph Campbell at his best>
Joseph Campbell of that Hero's cycle? Thanks, although I didn't know he
actually wrote something.
Joseph Campbell didn't write _Star Wars_ but AIUI he inspired George
Lucas.

- Syd

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