Discussion:
Return to the Green Door
(too old to reply)
James Nicoll
2004-11-22 16:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Kind of a meta question but I don't think it came up
when I did Green Door:

For various reasons, I was flipping through _Islands in
Space_ (Cole and Cox), a 1964 book on colonizing the asteroids.
The interesting thing is that the reason C&C pushed for doing this
was to increase the area human occupy by the same factor that our
ability to destroy had increased so that future wars would not
kill a disproportionate number of people.

With that in mind, on what event or events are the Americans
of the Cold War going to blame the extinction of humanity between Now
and +250M? How did the people of the 1950s and 1960s explain mass
extinctions, anyway?
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
Rich Rostrom
2004-11-22 17:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
How did the people of the 1950s and 1960s explain mass
extinctions, anyway?
Ice Ages, volcanic convulsions.

The first section of Disney's 'music video' _Fantasia_
depicts the dinosaurs, and ends with dinosaurs marching
into a vast desert and all dying.
--
Nothing which was ever expressed originally in the English language resembles,
except in the most distant way, the thought of Plotinus, or Hegel, or Foucault.
I take this to be enormously to the credit of our language. -- David Stove
William P. Baird
2004-11-22 17:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Kind of a meta question but I don't think it came up
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAH! It returns! It's about time, James. Some of
us have been waiting for this oen to rear its...uh...wondrous
sensor gangalia for some time.
Post by James Nicoll
With that in mind, on what event or events are the Americans
of the Cold War going to blame the extinction of humanity between Now
and +250M? How did the people of the 1950s and 1960s explain mass
extinctions, anyway?
They only had two as far as I know to explain in the 1950/60s.
The first is the most famous: dinos. The second was the Ice
Age mammals. The latter was due to humnaity, iirc. The former
was really up in the air: droughts and earthquakes, possibly;
disease; mammals eat the eggs; climate cooled; etc.

My bet is that they're going to assume, initially at least,
that the Soviets went nuts and The War was fought...and lost.
In a big, big way. IIRC, nukes dominated thinking. Even if
it might be something else, like say a chunk of rock from space.
I'd expect that any evidence is going to be interpreted that way
for a while. However! I'd expect that there'd be a big time
project to try to find out just what happened once people
wrap their head around what they have. Evidence of what
happened might well be there in the strata. If it was a nuke
exchange, there will be a lot of interesting isotopes at a
particular layer. if its not, then something else. Even a
asteroid strike would leave tell tale signs.

I can see a very bitter short story of an archaeologist digging
and finding skeletons. One happens to be his granddaughter's,
but he never really knew. Interweave her death and his digging,
and you get something...nicely acidicly bitter.

Will

--
William P Baird Do you know why the road less traveled by
Speaking for me has so few sightseers? Normally, there
Home: ***@gmail is something big, mean, with very sharp
Work: ***@nersc teeth - and quite the appetite! - waiting
Add .com/.gov somewhere along its dark and twisty bends.
James Nicoll
2004-11-22 21:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Would it violate the tone of the TL if it turned out there was
one last birdian lineage left: the last ratites, now a diverse sea
dwelling family? The ones from that thread in May, I mean.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
Coyu
2004-11-22 21:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Would it violate the tone of the TL if it turned out there was
one last birdian lineage left: the last ratites, now a diverse sea
dwelling family? The ones from that thread in May, I mean.
Hell no.
William P. Baird
2004-11-22 22:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Would it violate the tone of the TL if it turned out there was
one last birdian lineage left: the last ratites, now a diverse sea
dwelling family? The ones from that thread in May, I mean.
Not at all. I'd be delighted to have the sea ratites added to
the TL. :D

Do we get a critter outline of new discoveries and their impact on
1960s science? The sentients alone are going to play havoc with
a lot; never mind theology. A lot of cherished sacred cows are
going to be slaughtered.

Aren't the Leakey's still the big name in palaeoanthrology at this
point? I'd /love/ to see their reaction to all those nonbipedal
sophonts. :D

Something that might cause a stir too is if there are any fossils
of posthumans that get dug up.

Will

--
William P Baird Do you know why the road less traveled by
Speaking for me has so few sightseers? Normally, there
Home: ***@gmail is something big, mean, with very sharp
Work: ***@nersc teeth - and quite the appetite! - waiting
Add .com/.gov somewhere along its dark and twisty bends.
James Nicoll
2004-11-22 22:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by William P. Baird
Post by James Nicoll
Would it violate the tone of the TL if it turned out there was
one last birdian lineage left: the last ratites, now a diverse sea
dwelling family? The ones from that thread in May, I mean.
Not at all. I'd be delighted to have the sea ratites added to
the TL. :D
Do we get a critter outline of new discoveries and their impact on
1960s science? The sentients alone are going to play havoc with
a lot; never mind theology. A lot of cherished sacred cows are
going to be slaughtered.
Aren't the Leakey's still the big name in palaeoanthrology at this
point? I'd /love/ to see their reaction to all those nonbipedal
sophonts. :D
Something that might cause a stir too is if there are any fossils
of posthumans that get dug up.
The Moon is an excellent place to look for relics....
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
William P. Baird
2004-11-22 22:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The Moon is an excellent place to look for relics....
Depends on when the extinction of man took place. In 2010?
Well, not a lot will be found on the moon by then. In 2100?
Possibly quite a bit.

And what caused it? Evil America? That'd be delightful in
a sick sorta way. Esp with the 1960s going on in the
background.

Actually, I'm interested what else gets found. Critter and
otherwise BtGD.

Will
No, /really/, we /are/ the evil ones...


--
William P Baird Do you know why the road less traveled by
Speaking for me has so few sightseers? Normally, there
Home: ***@gmail is something big, mean, with very sharp
Work: ***@nersc teeth - and quite the appetite! - waiting
Add .com/.gov somewhere along its dark and twisty bends.
James Nicoll
2004-11-24 16:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by William P. Baird
Post by James Nicoll
The Moon is an excellent place to look for relics....
Depends on when the extinction of man took place. In 2010?
Well, not a lot will be found on the moon by then. In 2100?
Possibly quite a bit.
Actually, I think two factors are going to give the
various space programs a big shot in the arm:

1: The Moon is a good place to leave time capsules for +250M.

2: The Green Door not only reaches across time but a considerable
distance in space. Other Green Doors may lead to other solar systems.

It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
James Gassaway
2004-11-24 18:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by William P. Baird
Post by James Nicoll
The Moon is an excellent place to look for relics....
Depends on when the extinction of man took place. In 2010?
Well, not a lot will be found on the moon by then. In 2100?
Possibly quite a bit.
Actually, I think two factors are going to give the
1: The Moon is a good place to leave time capsules for +250M.
2: The Green Door not only reaches across time but a considerable
distance in space. Other Green Doors may lead to other solar systems.
It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
Another Nicoll Event? :)

(Meant in good humor, apologies if too far out of line.)
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
James Nicoll
2004-11-24 19:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Gassaway
Post by James Nicoll
Post by William P. Baird
Post by James Nicoll
The Moon is an excellent place to look for relics....
Depends on when the extinction of man took place. In 2010?
Well, not a lot will be found on the moon by then. In 2100?
Possibly quite a bit.
Actually, I think two factors are going to give the
1: The Moon is a good place to leave time capsules for +250M.
2: The Green Door not only reaches across time but a considerable
distance in space. Other Green Doors may lead to other solar systems.
It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
Another Nicoll Event? :)
(Meant in good humor, apologies if too far out of line.)
Sort of. I am in Phase II of Getting a Good Night's Sleep
and the new stuff I am on made me stupid for over a week and now
seems to be giving me all the benefits of early pregnancy.

But I am beginning to notice it takes a lot less time for
me to get thinking in the morning, so it's worth it.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
William P. Baird
2004-11-24 20:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Sort of. I am in Phase II of Getting a Good Night's Sleep
and the new stuff I am on made me stupid for over a week and now
seems to be giving me all the benefits of early pregnancy.
Nicollian Medicinal Events. That's...frightening.

You definitely have my sympathies about the early pregnancy. oogh.

Get well soon.

Back to the original topic:

More innovative plants, please. The land coral was extremely
interesting for what its implications were. May I coopt with
permission?

May I suggest for the retcon for the sea ratites be that they
were found in the world ocean rather than the inland one? The
inland sea seems to be closer to The Green Door than the World
Sea. That way you can argue that birds were thought extinct
rather than really were because it took a while for the
scientists to get out there.


Will

--
William P Baird Do you know why the road less traveled by
Speaking for me has so few sightseers? Normally, there
Home: ***@gmail is something big, mean, with very sharp
Work: ***@nersc teeth - and quite the appetite! - waiting
Add .com/.gov somewhere along its dark and twisty bends.
James Nicoll
2004-11-24 20:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by William P. Baird
Post by James Nicoll
Sort of. I am in Phase II of Getting a Good Night's Sleep
and the new stuff I am on made me stupid for over a week and now
seems to be giving me all the benefits of early pregnancy.
Nicollian Medicinal Events. That's...frightening.
That would be my encounter with dovenex, which was exactly
like being dipped in bleach.
Post by William P. Baird
You definitely have my sympathies about the early pregnancy. oogh.
Get well soon.
More innovative plants, please. The land coral was extremely
interesting for what its implications were. May I coopt with
permission?
Sure. It was inspired by an old Discover article called
Hyperocean, I think.
Post by William P. Baird
May I suggest for the retcon for the sea ratites be that they
were found in the world ocean rather than the inland one? The
inland sea seems to be closer to The Green Door than the World
Sea. That way you can argue that birds were thought extinct
rather than really were because it took a while for the
scientists to get out there.
Actually, I seem to have assumed that without ever saying.

Given that the Sun is ~2.5% brighter in +250 M and the scale
of the world ocean, the storms must be quite impressive. Any idea
how to model this?
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
James Gassaway
2004-11-25 18:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Gassaway
Post by James Nicoll
It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
Another Nicoll Event? :)
(Meant in good humor, apologies if too far out of line.)
Sort of. I am in Phase II of Getting a Good Night's Sleep
and the new stuff I am on made me stupid for over a week and now
seems to be giving me all the benefits of early pregnancy.
But I am beginning to notice it takes a lot less time for
me to get thinking in the morning, so it's worth it.
A bit out of line on my part then. My apologies. I was (briefly) on
medication that screwed with my sleep some years ago. Not pleasant, so you
have my sympathies as well.
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
Dan Goodman
2004-11-25 19:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Gassaway
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Gassaway
Post by James Nicoll
It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
Another Nicoll Event? :)
(Meant in good humor, apologies if too far out of line.)
Sort of. I am in Phase II of Getting a Good Night's Sleep
and the new stuff I am on made me stupid for over a week and now
seems to be giving me all the benefits of early pregnancy.
But I am beginning to notice it takes a lot less time for
me to get thinking in the morning, so it's worth it.
A bit out of line on my part then. My apologies. I was (briefly) on
medication that screwed with my sleep some years ago. Not pleasant, so you
have my sympathies as well.
I used to have insomnia. And I sometimes stayed awake worrying about it.
Knowing that this was ridiculous didn't help.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
James Nicoll
2004-11-25 19:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by James Gassaway
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Gassaway
Post by James Nicoll
It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
Another Nicoll Event? :)
(Meant in good humor, apologies if too far out of line.)
Sort of. I am in Phase II of Getting a Good Night's Sleep
and the new stuff I am on made me stupid for over a week and now
seems to be giving me all the benefits of early pregnancy.
But I am beginning to notice it takes a lot less time for
me to get thinking in the morning, so it's worth it.
A bit out of line on my part then. My apologies. I was (briefly) on
medication that screwed with my sleep some years ago. Not pleasant, so you
have my sympathies as well.
I used to have insomnia. And I sometimes stayed awake worrying about it.
Knowing that this was ridiculous didn't help.
Luckily, I only rarely get insomina (1). I have apnea and the
twitching thing, which just means I only got sleep in one minute units
and my odds for stroke were higher. I did, however, -get- sleep. With the
cpap and the pills, with any luck I will go down to cancer or heart failure
and _not_ have my brain turned into cheese years before I die.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be on the hell-pills
for something serious: I know someone on them who takes 4 a day. How
does he _move_? How does he _eat_?


1: The dreams about having it seem to have the same effect, which is
just weird.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
martinl
2004-12-02 03:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Actually, I think two factors are going to give the
1: The Moon is a good place to leave time capsules for +250M.
2: The Green Door not only reaches across time but a considerable
distance in space. Other Green Doors may lead to other solar systems.
It may be a while before I get cracking on this for non-serious
health reasons.
I'd like to add a third, based on the following info from the original
thread:

"In 1979, satellite data indicated an anomoly offshore of
Mexico, offshore of the Yucatan Penninsula. A covert operation
(Disguised as oil drilling research) recovered the B end from deep
beneath the sea floor, in the middle of a vast crater. As soon as it
was freed from its rocky tomb, a powerful negative pressure was noted.
Investigation revealed that the A end, in -250M, was in deep
interstellar
space, about 3 ly from the nearest star."

This is a low energy door (I'll call it the Neerg Door) into
interstellar space. Microgravity. Hard Vacuum. Texas T. (Okay,
maybe not the last one.)

Build a space ship/station around the other end. It's value to the
space program will be, well, astronomical. Some possibilites:

Telescopes and other scientific equipment. You can get a Hubble
equivalent into deep space on a flat bed truck equivalent.

Deep space equipment testing. Simplifies a lot of space R&D
significantly.

Nuclear (or other especially icky) waste disposal. Probably as a form
of propulsion. (Although where you'd want to go is an interesting
question, given the 3 ly barrier. Perhaps the telescopes could find
something within a few years reach.) In any case, a big mass driver
firing barrels of nuke waste out of Neerg station is an interesting
image. "Yeeeeehaaaaaaw..." optional.

Especially dangerous science/engineering. Probably on tethered
habitat modules a fair distance from the door.

Zero-G manufacturing. It will probably start as a small spin off of
the equipment testing, but get big as people realize possibilities.
Most likely very big. I doubt the Neerg Door will be as economically
important as the Green one, but it will be important.

Most of this stuff *is* a space program (with absurdly low launch
costs), but it will also encourage "local" space exploration:

A lot of the needed technology will be developed for Neerg Door.

Other nations can more easily compete with Neerg Station
accomplishments than with Green Door ones, as least in terms of
prestiege, if not economics. If zero G manufacturing leads to
strategically important materials, this becomes even more important.

A sufficiently advanced space program can even try to compete with the
Green Door program by exploiting space resources, although again
economic factors will mean this is mostly for prestiege, not wealth.
However, I can easily see the USSR doing exactly that.

Other thoughts?

martinl
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 02:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by martinl
This is a low energy door (I'll call it the Neerg Door) into
interstellar space. Microgravity. Hard Vacuum.
Post by martinl
Telescopes and other scientific equipment. You can get a Hubble
equivalent into deep space on a flat bed truck equivalent.

What questions about space would this allow us to answer?
Post by martinl
A lot of the needed technology will be developed for Neerg Door.
Like what?
Post by martinl
prestiege, if not economics. If zero G manufacturing leads to
strategically important materials, this becomes even more important.<

Hmmm I'm not sure what the advantage of 0GM is, but I'm pretty ignorant
of the topic. . . I'm going to start a thread on zero G Manufacturing
over on AHF.

--
Mike Ralls
James Gassaway
2004-12-07 05:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Hmmm I'm not sure what the advantage of 0GM is, but I'm pretty ignorant
of the topic. . . I'm going to start a thread on zero G Manufacturing
over on AHF.
I seem to recall something about ultra-pure medicine and perfectly spherical
ball bearings. I wonder what one could do with REALLY massive scale
freeze-drying (place items in room, close door 1, open door 2, wait ten
minutes, reverse).
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
JBodi
2004-11-24 02:05:25 UTC
Permalink
I for one would welcome our ratite descendants.
Glad this is in the works ...
JBodi
2004-11-24 02:05:50 UTC
Permalink
I for one would welcome our ratite descendants.
Glad this is in the works ...
Strange Creature
2004-11-24 23:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by William P. Baird
Post by James Nicoll
Kind of a meta question but I don't think it came up
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAH! It returns! It's about time, James. Some of
us have been waiting for this oen to rear its...uh...wondrous
sensor gangalia for some time.
Post by James Nicoll
With that in mind, on what event or events are the Americans
of the Cold War going to blame the extinction of humanity between Now
and +250M? How did the people of the 1950s and 1960s explain mass
extinctions, anyway?
They only had two as far as I know to explain in the 1950/60s.
The first is the most famous: dinos. The second was the Ice
Age mammals. The latter was due to humnaity, iirc.
I am not so sure about the latter.

I can remember at least a few descriptions and a few books
mentioning climate change as a cause of the latter, or
the extinction of the Ice Age mammals.

Probably back then, people cared less about Native Americans
and other indigenous peoples than they do now.

Still, however, climatologists recognized that the earth
was somewhat colder in the past, but they failed to
recognize the time scales of an ice age on the order of
a few million years, versus the time scales of the
interglacials of about 10,000 to 30,000 years or more,
interspersed with colder periods of nearly 100,000
years, failed to recognize that we are still in the
million-or-so-year-time-scale ice age but only right
now merely in an interglacial, during that ice age,
failed to recognize that there have been tens of
interglacials over the last several million years,
and then failed to do a comparison with regard to
the time scales, of the extinctions of the ice age
mammals, with the time scales in the variations in
the climate over the same periods.

At least I guess so. I don't remember exactly what
I read 20 or 30 years ago, and it may have simply been
a bad array of specific books or articles on the
subject. It might be that the specific journals
dedicated to the subject might have accepted it as
the general idea for a lot longer.
Doug Muir
2004-11-24 21:46:35 UTC
Permalink
***@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote

[more Green Door! Hurrah!]

Plants: the last Big Thing in plant evolution was the development of
flowers in the Cretaceous. Huge deal; flowers now totally dominate
land plants, and a few species -- mangroves and such -- are
considering colonizing the oceans.

Projection: flowering plants /do/ colonize the ocean. Hey, it's a big
niche. I think you can run with this one, no?

Alternate: plants finally, finally -- after over a billion years of
screwing around -- develop a method of photosynthesis that doesn't
grab the wrong damn molecule half the time, and require
photorespiration to get rid of the end products.

More efficient photosynthesis -> more energy available to the
biosphere generally. Possibly also a modest cooling effect. It'd
increase the efficiency of carbon fixing, too (since photorespiration
requires the poor plants to defix some of the carbon they've just
grabbed out of the atmosphere.

Alternate (though not inconsistent with the last): plant defenses seem
to have coevolved over the last couple of hundred million years, with
a gradual long-term tendency towards greater lethality. Extrapolate.
Thorns and toxins, of course; but I'm also thinking of symbioses, like
those acacia trees that have evolved to shelter particularly
unpleasant and aggressive colonies of stinging ants, growing internal
spaces for the ant colony and even producing sweet sap to feed the
little brutes.

As to storms: bitchin' huge. Like modern subantarctic storms, only
cyclonic. Scary. But -- they'd never get near Green Door Base; too
far inland.


Doug M.
Gareth Wilson
2004-11-25 07:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Muir
Alternate (though not inconsistent with the last): plant defenses seem
to have coevolved over the last couple of hundred million years, with
a gradual long-term tendency towards greater lethality. Extrapolate.
Thorns and toxins, of course; but I'm also thinking of symbioses, like
those acacia trees that have evolved to shelter particularly
unpleasant and aggressive colonies of stinging ants, growing internal
spaces for the ant colony and even producing sweet sap to feed the
little brutes.
I was thinking along these lines too. Eating live plants is a rather
difficult lifestyle for an animal; along with all the toxins the
nutrient content is low and you need an elaborate digestive system. It
might be interesting if the lifestyle was even harder. What I came up
with was a combinatorial toxin system for plants, equivalent to the
mammalian immune sytem. Bite on a leaf and you ingest three randomly
synthesised poisons. Bite on another leaf on the same twig and you get
three different poisons. Sooner or later you're dead, no matter how
fast you're evolving resistance. If this becomes common enough, you
can get rid of all herbivores, except those that eat decayed
vegetation and those with specially provided food, like pollinators.
Extend the pollination idea and you get the John Smith ecosystem: work
or starve. Every bite of food is payment for a service to whatever the
food comes from.

Gareth Wilson
http://www.gareth.wilson.name
VGer47
2004-11-25 21:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Wilson
Post by Doug Muir
Alternate (though not inconsistent with the last): plant defenses seem
to have coevolved over the last couple of hundred million years, with
a gradual long-term tendency towards greater lethality. Extrapolate.
Thorns and toxins, of course; but I'm also thinking of symbioses, like
those acacia trees that have evolved to shelter particularly
unpleasant and aggressive colonies of stinging ants, growing internal
spaces for the ant colony and even producing sweet sap to feed the
little brutes.
I was thinking along these lines too. Eating live plants is a rather
difficult lifestyle for an animal; along with all the toxins the
nutrient content is low and you need an elaborate digestive system. It
might be interesting if the lifestyle was even harder. What I came up
with was a combinatorial toxin system for plants, equivalent to the
mammalian immune sytem. Bite on a leaf and you ingest three randomly
synthesised poisons. Bite on another leaf on the same twig and you get
three different poisons. Sooner or later you're dead, no matter how
fast you're evolving resistance. If this becomes common enough, you
can get rid of all herbivores, except those that eat decayed
vegetation and those with specially provided food, like pollinators.
Extend the pollination idea and you get the John Smith ecosystem: work
or starve. Every bite of food is payment for a service to whatever the
food comes from.
Gareth Wilson
http://www.gareth.wilson.name
In that case, one possible adaptations for herbivores would be to
become predatorial: evolve ways to kill plants, then feed on the
remains. This would probably work best for large plants like trees,
who might be 'ringed' using specially developed claws or horns.
Alternatively, some herbivores might develop poisons the could spray
on fields or copses to kill lots of smaller plants.
Perhaps some herbivores might even develop symbiosis with some insects
who kill the plants, then lay eggs in the herbivore's dung?

Another thing I'm curious about: how long would the US be able to keep
the Green Door a secret? Once they start to colonize the world of
+250M, and start shipping large amounts of resources back, it _has_ to
draw attention. The number of people needed for such large-scale
operations alone would attract attention. And during the Cold War, the
Soviets at least would notice something big is going on and not rest
before they find out what it is. Once they know, how long before the
other powers will too?

How would the Russians react when they learn that America is
colonizing and exploiting an entire _world_ behind everybody's back?
How will the British react to the news that while they are
deconstructing their Empire the Americans -who had had a lot of
criticism on England's imperialism- are now creating an even greater
empire, and some of it on land that used to be Britain itself?

So, my questions are: can the US keep the Green Door a secret (IMHO
almost certainly not)
and: Can America keep the world behind the Green Door to itself?
Almost certainly - who's going to make them share if they don't want
to? But it would be a very bitter irony if the existence of the Green
Door would lead to the war that caused the extinction found by the
paleontologists...
James Nicoll
2004-11-25 22:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by VGer47
Another thing I'm curious about: how long would the US be able to keep
the Green Door a secret? Once they start to colonize the world of
+250M, and start shipping large amounts of resources back, it _has_ to
draw attention. The number of people needed for such large-scale
operations alone would attract attention. And during the Cold War, the
Soviets at least would notice something big is going on and not rest
before they find out what it is. Once they know, how long before the
other powers will too?
The first nation to find out what the US has is the USSR,
from its spies.

I don't think I ever said how long it was before everyone
found out but say by 1980.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
James Nicoll
2004-11-25 22:48:17 UTC
Permalink
I just reread the original thread and it seems to me I overlooked
something with the Mock-Spiders: they may have the ability to alter the
colour of their skins, like octopuses do. That should be useful.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
Mike Ralls
2004-11-29 00:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Quick question: How big is the Green Door?

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2004-11-30 14:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Ralls
Quick question: How big is the Green Door?
Why, obviously, big enough to have a freight train going each way.
It'd be damned inconvenient otherwise!

James Nicoll said in post 13 of the original thread

Subject to the dimensions of the GD, up to 50 m wide.

(I see traintracks running through the GD)

ME

What if Britain gets the Door in Jan 1958, the date posited for the
USA in the original? This is late enough that it won't be used as a
source of readily extractible wealth "to susutain the Empire!", but
early enough that Britain does not yet think of itself as a post
imperial nation. It's still mourning what it's lost. Thus we
eventually get the UKoGB,NI&Nova Britannia.

They'd be just as scientifically poised as the US, but it could be
kept secret for an even shorter time. Also there was an awful lot of
"Fear of Imminent Nuclear Death" around, so I could see significant
portions of the UKian population moving. No doubt Britain's allies,
like the USA would get a look in, but unless they were prepared to go
to war for it, it's staying British. This makes the Troubles in the
North look like an unimportant sideshow, and since public support in
Britain for keeping NI has never been anything more than lukewarm,
stuff happens. Any one else feel like discussing this?

And, for added horribleness.

January 1907.

Hokkaido Prefecture, Empire of Japan, some godforsaken place.

Weird floaty thing is observed, and causes commotion among lkocal
AInu, the only people around. For an extremely short period it's a
tourist attraction, then a minion of the Imperial government arrives
and it's suddenly Top Secret.

Through some fiddling with magnets which in later times is recognised
as being awe inspiringly dangerous (until they realise that while they
could have sterilised Hokkaido, they could not have broken the crust
without an onsite nuclear reactor to provide power) the Gap is
stabilised at 50m wide.

Expeditions are sent through. It is obvious that thios is not our
earth, but inhabited by something like Earth life, none of it human.
They have the "great good fortune" to end up on biggest island at the
tip of North America.
http://www.scotese.com/future2.htm
handily putting them in the path of storms typhoons and tidal waves
just like home, in a luxuriant, disease infested environment simply
brimming over with predators and nasty herbivores.

The Japanese suddenly stop exporting people. Settling Formosa goes to
a trickle, Hokkaido starts it's long journey to being the most
fortified place on Earth and the focus of Japan's foreign policy
becomes

Retain Hokkaido. Retain control of this New World. Deny Russia a
Pacific coastline, or failing that any decent ports.

Since colonial ventures our side are suddenly less important, but
Korea is still run as a satrapy, large numbers of Koreans are uprooted
to start new cities every decent and half decent port on the Russian
Pacific Coast, and anyone else who will come, Indians Chinese, Malays,
Filipinos. There is a policy of non contiguity of ethnicity so they
can divide and rule, but the important thing is that the Russians are
stopped.

There are efforts at decontamination and such but without negative
pressure warehouses stuff gets out. Flame throwers are used for
disinfection of rampant noxious weeds.

By 1917 the Japanese government feels secure in their hold over the
Sea of New Japan, and their explanations are becoming increasingly
threadbare, so the Gap is formally announced to the World.

Japan probably has another three decades of migration up time in it
before it has to go outside for settlers. Thoughts or comments?
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 01:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Cotter
What if Britain gets the Door in Jan 1958, the date posited for the
USA in the original?<

The British get bumped up in Rank to the third among the Superpowers.

Possession of the Door causes the Third/Fourth British Empire to become
more insular than previous Empires, because the only entrance to that
door is located on British soil. A larger % of the British public
travel through the door than their *American counterpoints who got the
Door in a different travel, but interactions with the Spider-creatures
and others go badly for the first few decades but have mellowed by
2004. The UK invests in a missile shield around the door, it being the
UK's single most valuable asset (this is probably true for the US in
the US-Has-The-Door-TL) resulting in no restrictions on ABM. The Cold
War is likely hotter and the Soviets might spend more than in OTL. Or
not.

The British might allow New Commonwealth immigration to continue longer
as long as the immigrants agree to spend X amount of years on the other
side of the door where labor is dearly needed.

Hmm . . . Labor (both the party and the social unit) is likely to be
very powerful on the other side of the door.
Post by Barry Cotter
Britain for keeping NI has never been anything more than lukewarm,
stuff happens.<

What stuff?
Post by Barry Cotter
Any one else feel like discussing this?
And, for added horribleness.
January 1907.
Hokkaido Prefecture, Empire of Japan, some godforsaken place.
Disagree that it's horribleness. I think such a TL as below gives us a
much better shot at a nicer Japan than in OTL.
Post by Barry Cotter
handily putting them in the path of storms typhoons and tidal waves
just like home, in a luxuriant, disease infested environment simply
brimming over with predators and nasty herbivores.<

Tough, but Japan was actually one of the more successful colonizers of
the 1st half of the 20th century, IMO. They managed to get Japanese
all over the place and get them to stick around and make a life their.
Given the autarkic advantages of having an entire world to themselves,
I see the Japanese going for a Total Empire approach to the Door, even
more so than they did for Manchuria.

Quick background on Manchuria:
Japan's Total Empire
Manchuria and the Culture of Wartime Imperialism
Louise Young

3. Japan got sphere of influence in southern Manchuria 1905. Ruled
through lont-term lease on Liadong Pennisula, South Manchurian Railway
(Mantetsu). The small lease territory was directly ruled, while the
rest was indirectly ruled.
4. 30's Japan saught Manchuria to be 10% Japanese. 5 Million
collonists. Three big goals: Military conquest, economic development
and mass migration. "In the service of these three endeavors, over a
million Japanese soldiers, entrepeneurs, and agricultural emigrants
crossed the waters that separated Japan from the continent."
6. Debate over Manchuria's controlled economy as "bold
expirement" (precursor to post war economic miracle) or risky and
doomed to failure.
7. View of Japanese-colonists-as-victims (To the Russians or Chinese)
very common.
8. "The state wields power in its ordering of society, while society
exercises power in its shaping of the state." Both in Manchukuo.
Should not be seen as separate, but rather as relfections.
9. Teacher-state actor or social agent? Officers may be state, but
what of conscrips?
11. Definition of imperialism tricky. Dominated society not only
effected by it, but can't reject intervention. China 1907 or 1932
couldn't tell the Japanese to go home. Japan in 1890's did send
Euro advisors away.
13. Social Imperialism - idea that you can keep home stable by sending
social discontents away.
13. By the authors definition of Total Empire, (similar to total war,
in that "It entailed the mass and multidimensional mobilization of
domestic society; cultural, military, political, and economic) French
Algeria and British India also qualify.
14. Korea in 1890's and 1900's also might qualify.
15. Chinese and Korean perceptions of Manchuria not really known in
Japan. They were not in the narratives. Even in war they were
faceless. Often Manchuria was pictured as empty.
16. Manchuria many things to different people. Intellectuals - urban
utopia. Rural - agrarian paradise. Businessmen - remedy for
capitalism. Radical army - means to overthrow capitalism. All mixed
together.
23. Japanese imperialism not just European reaction. Had roots in
Japanese history.
24. Manchuria known to Chinese as the Three Eastern Provinces.
28. Japan pushed it's collonies to do commercialized specialization
of crops. Taiwan- sugarcane. Korea - rice. Kwantung Leased Territory
- soybeans.
28. Total police force: 18,463 police in Korea (40% native. 11,166
Taiwan (20% native).
32. Mantetsu very profitable first 25 years. 20 or 30% rate of
return.
34. 230,000 Japanese in Manchuria in 1930. Few in farming or fishing.

40. HQ in Tokyo refused to reign in troops, and politicians didn't
want to give up territory that had already been took.
44. Big departure in 1936. Plan to send 5 million (1/5th of J farm
population) to Manchuria over 20 years. Previously J's in M had
been urban. Administorators, enttrepeneurs, professionals.
45. Farmers needed to be bribed (fee passage, free land). Urbans
flocked. Often large portion of cities. J's were Dailan 29%.
Fengtian 59%. Rural were surounded by Chinese. Urbans often rarely
permanent. Return to J. Agricultrual there for good. Stuck there in
some ways (no money to go home, no job back home, etc).
46. Government controll of farm aid really helped it control
Agricultural collonists. Made them almost defacto Army reserves.
55. Manchuria top news in Japan for months after outbreak. Pop
culture became more militerized.
56. In beginning, no coerision. Media very willing to help war
effort. Lots of profits. Similar to British Emprie. Consumer demand.
58. News of war - Everybody wanted to be first to report it.
66. During economic growth, National newspapers spread, but regional
ones also bloomed. Newspapers read widley. Big popular culture.
69. "Manchuria became the theme for vaudeville acts, Kabuki,
tragedies, and even restaurant menus."
72. Jazz became less popular and gunka (war songs) rose.
74. By pop-culturalizing and sanitizing war, news hid true reality.
Lots of "infotainment."
75. Major Kuga Noboru was injured and taken priosner by Chinese. When
realeased he returned to battlefield where he had fallen and shot
himself. Became big hero. Many movies made about him.
76. Because much fewere participents, heroes multiplied. It's
easier to glorify war when there is not much of it.
77. "Three human bombs" or bullets, said to have exploded
themselves to help army's advance. But probably an accident. That
didn't matter to the media.
78. Media boom faded to sports, but League of Nations Lytton report
heated it up.
79. Media more left in the 1920's. Left good for profits in the
20's. Jingoism good for profits in 30's. 1929 Book "Tokyo
March" by Kikuchi Kan. Glorified consumer culture of Ginza Also
leftist social concersen. Kagawa Toyokiko's Shisen Okoet
(Overcomeing the struggle) to help social poor.
84. Peace Preservation Law of 1925. Used mainly against far left, but
doing so set an example for the mainstream.
85. Hard to enforce censorship. Postpublication censorship. So tried
to sell before police got their. Same in the Ruso-Japanese war. "In
fact, critical comments managed to get through the censor's net."

My computer notes for the book stop there. I'll try and find my
hard-copy notes.
Post by Barry Cotter
Retain Hokkaido. Retain control of this New World. Deny Russia a
Pacific coastline, or failing that any decent ports.<

Well, they are already pretty much guaranteed the first two given their
recent victory over Russia. At the same token getting rid of Sakhalin
is more problematic and beyond their level of power, but really in 1907
the Japanese don't have much to fear from a Russian invasion.

For one thing they have an alliance with the Brits, which the UK is
going to take a lot more seriously from now on (Expect the first
non-Japanese to go through the door to be Brits.) , and the Japanese
economy is going to be growing at breakneck speeds. For another the
Russian navy sucks and Russia wasn't even able to retain Korea in the
last war, let alone risk invasion of Japan.
Post by Barry Cotter
and anyone else who will come, Indians Chinese, Malays,
Filipinos. There is a policy of non contiguity of ethnicity so they
can divide and rule, but the important thing is that the Russians are
stopped.<

As long as WWI and the Bolshevik revolution are whipped away, the
Japanese are likely to be able to find enough allies against the USSR
that they don't have to worry too much.
Post by Barry Cotter
By 1917 the Japanese government feels secure in their hold over the
Sea of New Japan, and their explanations are becoming increasingly
threadbare, so the Gap is formally announced to the World.<

I have my doubts that they could hold onto such a secret for so long,
even if it's in rural Hokaido.

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2004-12-17 16:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
What if Britain gets the Door in Jan 1958, the date posited for the
USA in the original?<
The British get bumped up in Rank to the third among the Superpowers.
Hey, classy.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Possession of the Door causes the Third/Fourth British Empire to become
more insular than previous Empires, because the only entrance to that
door is located on British soil.
I suspect they'd start regarding the native intelligent species as
"people" on a governmental level faster than the Americans would. The
UK would be agreat market for some latter day *Kipling.

A larger % of the British public
Post by m***@willamette.edu
travel through the door than their *American counterpoints who got the
Door in a different travel, but interactions with the
Spider-creatures
Post by m***@willamette.edu
and others go badly for the first few decades but have mellowed by
2004.
I want to live in New London, the metropolis on the other side. This
could do quite nice things to British culture actually. (By my own
prejudices) Suddenly all the people who can't afford houses this side
of the Door have someplace with dirtcheap land where labour is going to
be at a premium for a _very_ long time. No excuse for sinkhole estates
now, hell, no reason for council estates.

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
The British might allow New Commonwealth immigration to continue longer
as long as the immigrants agree to spend X amount of years on the other
side of the door where labor is dearly needed.
The Commonwealth is likely a much, much more important organisation
TTL, to the extent that if immigration is so restricted, (likely)
Ireland could apply to rejoin. Irish emigration would more or less stop
going to the USA and end up other side of Green Door. And I se no
reason for Commonwealth immigration to _ever_ stop, provided that
people whose onl;y value is as low skill labour have a high limit on
the no. of years behind the door, so they build a life there, 20 years
say?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Hmm . . . Labor (both the party and the social unit) is likely to be
very powerful on the other side of the door.
Why? I'd expect the rugged, individualist, gonna-make-it-rich persons
to go for the Tories, and that myth is going to appeal mightily even to
those it doesn't fit.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Britain for keeping NI has never been anything more than lukewarm,
stuff happens.<
What stuff?
Buggerall. It's just that if any Government had a referendum in GB
about keeping NI, NI would be shrugged off without a backward glance.
Actually, I bet yousee a _major_ amount of Northern Catholics who'd
have ended up Republicans OTL Other Side, as they couldn't get council
housing in NI OTL. TTL they'll leave to make their fortune.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Any one else feel like discussing this?
And, for added horribleness.
January 1907.
Hokkaido Prefecture, Empire of Japan, some godforsaken place.
Disagree that it's horribleness. I think such a TL as below gives us a
much better shot at a nicer Japan than in OTL.
True.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
handily putting them in the path of storms typhoons and tidal waves
just like home, in a luxuriant, disease infested environment simply
brimming over with predators and nasty herbivores.<
Tough, but Japan was actually one of the more successful colonizers of
the 1st half of the 20th century, IMO. They managed to get Japanese
all over the place and get them to stick around and make a life their.
Given the autarkic advantages of having an entire world to
themselves,
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I see the Japanese going for a Total Empire approach to the Door, even
more so than they did for Manchuria.
Japan's Total Empire
Manchuria and the Culture of Wartime Imperialism
Louise Young
[snip Total Empire]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
My computer notes for the book stop there. I'll try and find my
hard-copy notes.
Post by Barry Cotter
Retain Hokkaido. Retain control of this New World. Deny Russia a
Pacific coastline, or failing that any decent ports.<
Well, they are already pretty much guaranteed the first two given their
recent victory over Russia. At the same token getting rid of
Sakhalin
Post by m***@willamette.edu
is more problematic and beyond their level of power, but really in 1907
the Japanese don't have much to fear from a Russian invasion.
Yes, but they want to make themselves unwinkleable. This is the kind of
thing that's so valuable you have a contingency plan for evacuating the
home islands and putting everyone on the Other Side of the Door.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
For one thing they have an alliance with the Brits, which the UK is
going to take a lot more seriously from now on (Expect the first
non-Japanese to go through the door to be Brits.) , and the Japanese
economy is going to be growing at breakneck speeds.
"You see, a recession is when the economy ios growing at 10%, instead
of the more normal 20% a year."

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
and anyone else who will come, Indians Chinese, Malays,
Filipinos. There is a policy of non contiguity of ethnicity so they
can divide and rule, but the important thing is that the Russians are
stopped.<
As long as WWI and the Bolshevik revolution are whipped away, the
Japanese are likely to be able to find enough allies against the USSR
that they don't have to worry too much.
Yes, but it's important that they're head kiddy, not their "Allies",
because after all, there are no permanent allies or eternal enemies,
only eternal interests.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
By 1917 the Japanese government feels secure in their hold over the
Sea of New Japan, and their explanations are becoming increasingly
threadbare, so the Gap is formally announced to the World.<
I have my doubts that they could hold onto such a secret for so long,
even if it's in rural Hokaido.
Min. and Max. times for keeping it a secret? Likely pool of Japanese
immigrants is utterly squeezed out when? What happens after that? Pre
WW2 Japan felt iotself strongly to be "Asian" in a way that just about
nobody but the Singaporeans does now, would they accept small trickles
of Koreans, say, after thorough indoctrination/preparation for your
life in the New World?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-22 07:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
The British get bumped up in Rank to the third among the
Superpowers.
Post by Barry Cotter
Hey, classy.
And hey, just wait until the Soviet Union collapses and Britain becomes
the second most internationally important country in the world.

Mind you, you'd also have to deal with a lot of hippies and Utopianists
who wanted to make their own little paradise on the otherside.
Post by Barry Cotter
I suspect they'd start regarding the native intelligent species as
"people" on a governmental level faster than the Americans would.
What reason do you see for this?
Post by Barry Cotter
The
UK would be agreat market for some latter day *Kipling.
Oh, aye. No matter which country gets the Green Door it is going to be
a fountain well for literature.
(ObWI: North Korea gets the GD in 1995, and lets the world know due to
incompetence (hey, they _admitted_ to making nukes in OTL). What
"great North Korean" novel comes out of it?)
Post by Barry Cotter
I want to live in New London, the metropolis on the other side.
Probably a nice place if you don't mind the small city/rural
environment.
Post by Barry Cotter
prejudices) Suddenly all the people who can't afford houses this side
of the Door have someplace with dirtcheap land
The thing is, over the past 50 years London has become more and more
not just _the_ place in Britain to "get things done" but practically
the _only_ place in Britain to do so. And the GD represents a serious
bottleneck that would make millions commuting from their cheap suburban
home to The City very problematic.
Post by Barry Cotter
Ireland could apply to rejoin. Irish emigration would more or less stop
going to the USA and end up other side of Green Door.
Keep in mind that Irish immigrants in the second half of the 20th
century didn't go to the rural areas of the US, they went to the cities
for the most part. It's going to be a while before there are any good
size cities in the OthersideUK.
Post by Barry Cotter
people whose onl;y value is as low skill labour have a high limit on
the no. of years behind the door, so they build a life there, 20 years
say?
I see political problems with setting the Other side quota that high.
"Oh, you RACIST! Treating the immigrants like second class citizens by
making them live Otherside for 20 years!"
Post by Barry Cotter
Why? I'd expect the rugged, individualist, gonna-make-it-rich persons
to go for the Tories,
It seems to me that the UK governments of the time would most probably
make colonizing the Otherside a government job, rather than part of the
private sector. At least until *Thatcher comes along.
Post by Barry Cotter
Buggerall. It's just that if any Government had a referendum in GB
about keeping NI, NI would be shrugged off without a backward glance.
Really? Huh. I wasn't aware that support was that small.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
My computer notes for the book stop there. I'll try and find my
hard-copy notes.
I never did find these. Damnit.
Post by Barry Cotter
thing that's so valuable you have a contingency plan for evacuating the
home islands and putting everyone on the Other Side of the Door.
Again, bottlenecks would present a number of problems from making it
this valuable.

Granted, the Japanese came up with some pretty goofy colonization plans
in OTL.
Post by Barry Cotter
Yes, but it's important that they're head kiddy, not their "Allies",
Given the nature of the Japanese economy (weak compared to Western
European countries for most of the first half of the 20th century) they
wouldn't expect to be head kiddy in anything except Asia . . . which
they were already pretty much in OTL. If you look at the concessions
Japan got in Asia in OTL's 1900 - 1941 you'll see that Europe and
America were willing to go a long way in giving Japan what she wanted
in Asia. Not everything certainly, but a lot.
Post by Barry Cotter
Min. and Max. times for keeping it a secret?
Min . . . a few days as reporters from around Japan and then around the
world step through the GD and then come back and write their stories.

Remember, these are 1907 RURAL Japanese we are talking about. Sci-Fi
had just been invented, and the concept of what happened would be
outside the world view of the people in charge. It's not like they
have a team of MIB's to zap people with memory loss guns.

Max . . . a year. Maybe two.
Post by Barry Cotter
Likely pool of Japanese immigrants is utterly squeezed out when?
Umm . . . this depends upon how *Japan's economy develops. If they get
the Japanese Miracle a generation early, then I see Japanese immigrants
as wanting to go to Tokyo rather than the mainly rural otherside by
1960ish.
Post by Barry Cotter
What happens after that?
It's likely that Japan will still have much of her Empire and will be a
lot less reluctant than the British to impose 20 year rules for
immigrants.
Post by Barry Cotter
Pre WW2 Japan felt iotself strongly to be "Asian"
Well . . . a lot of that was rhetoric, especially for the war years
(1937-1945). A lot of Japanese considered themselves to be more
European than Asian. Still do for matter.
Post by Barry Cotter
nobody but the Singaporeans does now, would they accept small
trickles
Post by Barry Cotter
of Koreans, say, after thorough indoctrination/preparation for your
life in the New World?
Heck yea. I see them not just accepting a small trickle but pushing
Koreans through the GD in a flood, especially when labor is in short
supply, which it will be from day one.

Pre-WWII Japan was getting to be a seriously international place with
lots of Korean immigrants in it. Neither the Japanese nor the Koreans
like to talk about it today, but Koreans were the junior partners in
the Japanese empire, and were beginning to become a more integral part
of the home islands as well. It would have been interesting to see how
that developed in a Japan that didn't lose WWII. (Plug: The Ishiwara
Option will return.)

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2004-12-22 18:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
The British get bumped up in Rank to the third among the
Superpowers.
Post by Barry Cotter
Hey, classy.
And hey, just wait until the Soviet Union collapses and Britain becomes
the second most internationally important country in the world.
How does this iompact on internal British politics? How irritated are
people at this? How much more important is the Commonwealth, effects on
ther EU? I have no _idea_.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Mind you, you'd also have to deal with a lot of hippies and
Utopianists
Post by m***@willamette.edu
who wanted to make their own little paradise on the otherside.
"Certainly. If you can show a plan for reasonable self-sufficiency,
post a £5,000 bond per person and swear the Oath of Allegiance, you
may found an Independent Settlement" (The fact that most of these fail
miserably, and the numerous children assimilate to dominant *British
culture, is, of course, an unforeseen side effect.)
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
I suspect they'd start regarding the native intelligent species as
"people" on a governmental level faster than the Americans would.
What reason do you see for this?
More Imperial experience. Dealing with people you don't quite consider
people, and finding your views shifting towards peoplehood. Also, even
the British right wing is more soft and cuddly than the US variant.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
The
UK would be a great market for some latter day *Kipling.
Oh, aye. No matter which country gets the Green Door it is going to be
a fountain well for literature.
The *Kipling bit was more in referernce to the perople bit than the
literature.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
I want to live in New London, the metropolis on the other side.
Probably a nice place if you don't mind the small city/rural
environment.
Which I do. I was thinking boom town, mining, rich idiots on safari,
thye lure of the new.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
prejudices) Suddenly all the people who can't afford houses this side
of the Door have someplace with dirtcheap land
The thing is, over the past 50 years London has become more and more
not just _the_ place in Britain to "get things done" but practically
the _only_ place in Britain to do so. And the GD represents a
serious
Post by m***@willamette.edu
bottleneck that would make millions commuting from their cheap
suburban
Post by m***@willamette.edu
home to The City very problematic.
I wasn't talking about people who have decent jobs OTL. More than
likely I wouldn't even be talking about people with jobs OTL. I'm
talkin g about second and third generation unemployed, undereducated,
no aspirations people. These are people with no cultural concept of
succedding through hard slog, and long susutained effort. OTL, they
escape through sport, music or drug dealing and other petty crime, TTL
they'll be the 49ers thinking they can strike it rich and live off that
forever. Just like the 49ers, the guys making the money will be the
ones selling them supplies, booze, and hookers.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Ireland could apply to rejoin. Irish emigration would more or less
stop
Post by Barry Cotter
going to the USA and end up other side of Green Door.
Keep in mind that Irish immigrants in the second half of the 20th
century didn't go to the rural areas of the US, they went to the cities
for the most part. It's going to be a while before there are any good
size cities in the OthersideUK.
Labour, mining camps, natural resources boomtowns. The fact that all
the decent land in the USA that was economical to farm in small lots,
or even relatively small ones also contributed. You have non idea how
land hungry a small holder farmer society, recently not peasants can
be. Much less than even 20 years before, but still at least 20,000.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
people whose onl;y value is as low skill labour have a high limit on
the no. of years behind the door, so they build a life there, 20
years
Post by Barry Cotter
say?
I see political problems with setting the Other side quota that high.
"Oh, you RACIST! Treating the immigrants like second class citizens by
making them live Otherside for 20 years!"
Plasusible upper limit, if the policy goal is to get them to settle
there? If it's a decent place to live, 5 years should probably be
plenty.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Why? I'd expect the rugged, individualist, gonna-make-it-rich persons
to go for the Tories,
It seems to me that the UK governments of the time would most
probably
Post by m***@willamette.edu
make colonizing the Otherside a government job, rather than part of the
private sector. At least until *Thatcher comes along.
Maybe Argentine style settlement? Managed, but with rapid expansion.
Airships, helicopters and such should make governmental control
trivially easy, especioally with a veto over settlers. All the same,
you're going to get some people going native, because humans are weird
likel that.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Buggerall. It's just that if any Government had a referendum in GB
about keeping NI, NI would be shrugged off without a backward glance.
Really? Huh. I wasn't aware that support was that small.
Middle England doesn't want it, don't now about Wales, don't thin
Scotland does except for the cesspit of sectarianism that is Glasgow.
What does Alan Lothian think?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
thing that's so valuable you have a contingency plan for evacuating
the
Post by Barry Cotter
home islands and putting everyone on the Other Side of the Door.
Again, bottlenecks would present a number of problems from making it
this valuable.
Granted, the Japanese came up with some pretty goofy colonization plans
in OTL.
I'd say you could get everybody over in three years.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Yes, but it's important that they're head kiddy, not their
"Allies",
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Given the nature of the Japanese economy (weak compared to Western
European countries for most of the first half of the 20th century) they
wouldn't expect to be head kiddy in anything except Asia . . . which
they were already pretty much in OTL. If you look at the concessions
Japan got in Asia in OTL's 1900 - 1941 you'll see that Europe and
America were willing to go a long way in giving Japan what she wanted
in Asia. Not everything certainly, but a lot.
Post by Barry Cotter
Min. and Max. times for keeping it a secret?
Min . . . a few days as reporters from around Japan and then around the
world step through the GD and then come back and write their stories.
Remember, these are 1907 RURAL Japanese we are talking about. Sci-Fi
had just been invented, and the concept of what happened would be
outside the world view of the people in charge. It's not like they
have a team of MIB's to zap people with memory loss guns.
Max . . . a year. Maybe two.
Post by Barry Cotter
Likely pool of Japanese immigrants is utterly squeezed out when?
Umm . . . this depends upon how *Japan's economy develops. If they get
the Japanese Miracle a generation early, then I see Japanese
immigrants
Post by m***@willamette.edu
as wanting to go to Tokyo rather than the mainly rural otherside by
1960ish.
I really don't see it as being primarily rural, more mining than
anything else. Also, where you put all your horrible toxic indusrtries.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
What happens after that?
It's likely that Japan will still have much of her Empire and will be a
lot less reluctant than the British to impose 20 year rules for
immigrants.
How Japanese will these immigrants be by this stage though?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Pre WW2 Japan felt itself strongly to be "Asian"
Well . . . a lot of that was rhetoric, especially for the war years
(1937-1945). A lot of Japanese considered themselves to be more
European than Asian. Still do for matter.
Great. Fooled by propaganda that waqs old before I was born.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
nobody but the Singaporeans does now, would they accept small
trickles
Post by Barry Cotter
of Koreans, say, after thorough indoctrination/preparation for your
life in the New World?
Heck yea. I see them not just accepting a small trickle but pushing
Koreans through the GD in a flood, especially when labor is in short
supply, which it will be from day one.
Again, how Japanese will they be? What about those ports to deny Russia
Pacific Coast I had in the first post? Plausible?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Pre-WWII Japan was getting to be a seriously international place with
lots of Korean immigrants in it. Neither the Japanese nor the
Koreans
Post by m***@willamette.edu
like to talk about it today, but Koreans were the junior partners in
the Japanese empire, and were beginning to become a more integral part
of the home islands as well. It would have been interesting to see how
that developed in a Japan that didn't lose WWII. (Plug: The Ishiwara
Option will return.)
Excellent. I would love to see an arguement between you and Juan Valdez
on that point (Korea junior partner) because he sems to thin it
impossible, and you're both knowledgeable. Junior partners in the way
the Scottish were in the "British" English Empire, or in a 10% of
population leaves upon independence fleeing anti-collaborator mobs way?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-28 00:38:05 UTC
Permalink
How does this impact on internal British politics?
On the whole I would say that it would strengthen the conservatives in
Britain. Not only would the loss of an Empire be cushioned by the
gaining of an entire world to colonize, but it would also increase
Britain's power and it's place in the world. This would see to
give John Bull more punch than in OTL.

On the other hand, the money that Britain gets from the green door
could result in less of a need to roll back socialism and that could
help the left.

I think you really need to TL it out to see exactly how it would go (in
that TL at least).
How irritated are people at this?
Enough to complain, but not enough to actually do anything about it.
Britain sharing the Green Door is something that gets brought up in
international conferences much in the same way that Saudi Arabia
sharing its oil wealth with poorer Arab states gets brought up in Arab
conferences. That is, it's something that everybody except the rich
country wants to happen but that everybody knows will never ever ever
happen.
How much more important is the Commonwealth,
Less than the EU, more so than the UN. Commonwealth countries,
especially the poor ones, will probably want to keep closer ties to
Britain so as to have more access for their citizens to the Green Door.
effects on ther EU?
I think Britain could very well end up outside of the EU in this TL.
"Between Europe and the Green Door, Britain will always chose the
Green Door." A UK-less EU would be a pretty interesting
development.
may found an Independent Settlement" (The fact that most of these fail
miserably, and the numerous children assimilate to dominant *British
culture, is, of course, an unforeseen side effect.)<

Its been my experience that the children of Utopianists almost never
quite fully assimilate. Never quite mainstream at least, not that
there's anything wrong with that. And the green door will attract
all sorts of idealists, including those wanting to escape "Cool
Britainia.".

You could end up with a situation like Orange County (IIRC) with half
the population being ex-Army and the other half being 1st, 2nd and 3rd
generation hippies. Interesting local politics there.
More Imperial experience.
Not sure I agree with that. The US has had this type of imperial
experience from since before it was the US. Keep in mind that
UK-emigrants to Australia didn't exactly treat the natives better
than he US did.
. Also, even
the British right wing is more soft and cuddly than the US variant.<

There is also the "real life experience" factor to consider. That
is, it's very easy for Sweden not to have any serious prejudice
against Africans, because they have almost none in Sweden. But stick a
bunch of Swedish immigrants in Africa and many of them will develop
Boer-like attitudes over time.

Same-same for the UK and the green door. It's very easy to be
sympathetic to the natives when you aren't a settler, but when
suddenly it's in your economic interest to take the natives land and
get the goodies for yourself it becomes a different ball game.
talkin g about second and third generation unemployed, undereducated,
no aspirations people. These are people with no cultural concept of
succedding through hard slog, and long susutained effort.<

Such people would not be likely to emigrate through the Green Door.
Such people would be likely to live off the oil wealth generated by
those who are motivated and willing to work hard on the other side of
the Green Door.

It's not like finding oil and exploiting it are something any dumb
yahoo can do either. It's a highly skilled profession and a drunken
looser isn't going to be able to do it very easily.
Plasusible upper limit, if the policy goal is to get them to settle
there? If it's a decent place to live, 5 years should probably be
plenty.<

5 years would seem to be reasonable to me.

Mind you, that's IF the goal is citizenship. And it doesn't have
to be. The UK could just give "Guest-Worker" permits for people to
work on the Otherside, with no promise of citizenship at all. Just a
promise to pay them for a few years before they return home. Like what
Germany did for the Turks in the 60's.

Mind you, suddenly they'll wake up to find that there are second and
third generation non-citizens on the Otherside and that's when things
become interesting. I actually see this as the higher probability
outcome than a UK which decides to use the Green Door as the pathway to
citizenship.

Ironic that the promise of no-citizenship is more politically viable
than the promise of citizenship in 20 years, no?
Maybe Argentine style settlement? Managed, but with rapid expansion.
I could see that.
you're going to get some people going native, because humans are weird
likel that.<

Yes, but it's going to take a couple of generations. I don't'
see it by 2004. For one thing the Otherside will be to economically
dependent upon this side.
I really don't see it as being primarily rural, more mining than
anything else.<

Bottlenecks. Shipping food over would be a waste of Green Door time.
The things needed to be shipped over would be those things that can't
be easily made on the Otherside, like high tech manufactories. Food
can be grown, therefore lots of farms to support the mines and oil
wells.
Also, where you put all your horrible toxic indusrtries.
Which would have be worthwhile to ship their end results through the
preciously limited green door.
How Japanese will these immigrants be by this stage though?
That's one of the most interesting things about a continued Japanese
Empire TL, the very definition of what "Japanese" is gets radically
changed from OTL. Pre-Surrender it was already warping due to
increased immigration to the home islands and emigration of native
Japanese to parts of the empire, then the end of imperial Japan
resulted in the pretty homogenized definition of Japanese that we have
today.
Again, how Japanese will they be?
Second and third Korean immigrants through the green door probably
speak Japanese perfectly. They are likely to be more Japanese than
those Koreans who remained in Korea, but to still be "off". Again,
you've got to TL it out to get specifics. "Do they have equal
rights?" needs to be answered to determine how assimilated they are.
What about those ports to deny Russia Pacific Coast I had in the
first post? Plausible?

The best bet would be during the Russian Civil War. If Japan is really
desperate it might be able to set up a White Regime heavily backed up
by Japanese bayonets to keep the Soviets out of Siberia.
Low-probability though.
Junior partners in the way
the Scottish were in the "British" English Empire, or in a 10% of
population leaves upon independence fleeing anti-collaborator mobs
way?<

The latter. I've always thought that a continued Japanese Empire
might have Korea go Alegrian if/when Japan democratized and loosened up
the noose.

--
Mike Ralls
James Gassaway
2004-12-28 21:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by Barry Cotter
may found an Independent Settlement" (The fact that most of these
fail
miserably, and the numerous children assimilate to dominant *British
culture, is, of course, an unforeseen side effect.)<
Its been my experience that the children of Utopianists almost never
quite fully assimilate. Never quite mainstream at least, not that
there's anything wrong with that. And the green door will attract
all sorts of idealists, including those wanting to escape "Cool
Britainia.".
How well do the grandchildren assimilate?
Post by Barry Cotter
You could end up with a situation like Orange County (IIRC) with half
the population being ex-Army and the other half being 1st, 2nd and 3rd
generation hippies. Interesting local politics there.
Marin County (other side of Golden Gate from SF) is like that too.
(Although it has been fading some over time.)
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-29 23:14:17 UTC
Permalink
James Gassaway wrote;
Post by James Gassaway
How well do the grandchildren assimilate?
A lot depends upon how big the Utopianist community is, and where it is
geographically located.

Heck, Utah was settled as a Utopianist community. How well are the
great^6 grandchildren of Brigum Young assimilated?

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2004-12-29 05:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
How does this impact on internal British politics?
[GD helps Tories]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
On the other hand, the money that Britain gets from the green door
could result in less of a need to roll back socialism and that could
help the left.
Ugh. A world where Thatcher is even more necessary, and much less
likely.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I think you really need to TL it out to see exactly how it would go (in
that TL at least).
Undoubtedly. Anyone feel like e-mailing me a reading list?

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
How much more important is the Commonwealth,
Less than the EU, more so than the UN. Commonwealth countries,
especially the poor ones, will probably want to keep closer ties to
Britain so as to have more access for their citizens to the Green Door.
Innnteresting. This may have consequences for South Africa, Rhodesia
and such. They stay on good terms with Britain longer, and when things
go pear shaped from the white POV there's a place to Settle again, and
the chances of the lefties getting rid of them approximate to zero if
they're a significant fraction of the settler population. Also, they're
educated, and they have all this frontier, survivalist stuff, and ZA,
in particular has massive mining experience.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
effects on the EU?
I think Britain could very well end up outside of the EU in this TL.
"Between Europe and the Green Door, Britain will always chose the
Green Door." A UK-less EU would be a pretty interesting
development.
Ever closer union is right. Ireland is a British appendage.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Its been my experience that the children of Utopianists almost never
quite fully assimilate. Never quite mainstream at least, not that
there's anything wrong with that. And the green door will attract
all sorts of idealists, including those wanting to escape "Cool
Britainia.".
You could end up with a situation like Orange County (IIRC) with half
the population being ex-Army and the other half being 1st, 2nd and 3rd
generation hippies. Interesting local politics there.
You'll also see right wing settlements over there, as well as left wing
utopian, and I suspect that, along with the truly nasty right wing
ones, many of which I imagine, would have a strongly British flavour
(the underclass may have to be imported, rather than from Britain)
which would fail, you'd get some USAn libertarian wing nuts, willing to
pledge allegiance for the chance to play the "Let's set up a society"
game. Some of the right wing ones, and religious settlements would
expand. If weird groups form a significant fraction of settlement, say
the bare majority, all together, with "normal" settlers ~45-49% you get
something like Israel, with the normals playing the role of Israeli
sabra. Thing is, you'd need massive immigration for these kind of
effects.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
More Imperial experience.
Not sure I agree with that. The US has had this type of imperial
experience from since before it was the US. Keep in mind that
UK-emigrants to Australia didn't exactly treat the natives better
than he US did.
That's actually probably the best analogue to use for Settler
attitudes. They have no concept of land tenure, and they're not human.
Terra Nullius is going to be real easy to pass.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
. Also, even
the British right wing is more soft and cuddly than the US variant.<
There is also the "real life experience" factor to consider. That
is, it's very easy for Sweden not to have any serious prejudice
against Africans, because they have almost none in Sweden. But stick a
bunch of Swedish immigrants in Africa and many of them will develop
Boer-like attitudes over time.
That's nice. No doubt the man on the ground gets to make policy for
some time, but by max. 10 years, all policy comes from the Otherside
Office in Whitehall, and it's informed by a British public opinion that
sees the OtherSide natives in about the way we'd see chimps if they
were smarter, and they all used sign language. Just means they're not
vermin, not that we can't take their land.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Same-same for the UK and the green door. It's very easy to be
sympathetic to the natives when you aren't a settler, but when
suddenly it's in your economic interest to take the natives land and
get the goodies for yourself it becomes a different ball game.
talking about second and third generation unemployed,
undereducated,
Post by m***@willamette.edu
no aspirations people. These are people with no cultural concept of
succedding through hard slog, and long sustained effort.<
Such people would not be likely to emigrate through the Green Door.
Such people would be likely to live off the oil wealth generated by
those who are motivated and willing to work hard on the other side of
the Green Door.
Involuntary emigration, combined with great money in a labour poor
environment, and free housing, but not free food? You can get a ranch
house over there in a place that's still "British" ITTL there will be
no Milton Keynes. Much, much council housing built Other Side, in a
desperately labour poor place, results in even stupid people looking on
working as a much better alternative than the Dole. May be politically
unfeasible.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
It's not like finding oil and exploiting it are something any dumb
yahoo can do either. It's a highly skilled profession and a drunken
looser isn't going to be able to do it very easily.
I know it's highly skilled, but there's a place for unskilled labour
everywhere, particularly if by shifting yahoo from A to B, you solve a
problem both sides. Also, money is an excellent motivator in remedying
dreggishness.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Plausible upper limit, if the policy goal is to get them to settle
there? If it's a decent place to live, 5 years should probably be
plenty.<
5 years would seem to be reasonable to me.
Mind you, that's IF the goal is citizenship. And it doesn't have
to be. The UK could just give "Guest-Worker" permits for people to
work on the Otherside, with no promise of citizenship at all. Just a
promise to pay them for a few years before they return home. Like what
Germany did for the Turks in the 60's.
Both alternatives seem quite plausible, with citizenship shading
guest-worker, because Britain never did any such metic system OTL, and
there would certainly have been support. Also, the Other Side will
impinge little on FirstSide, except in economic fashion. There will be
fewer votes in being racist towards people on Other Side than in
keeping those goodies flowing.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Mind you, suddenly they'll wake up to find that there are second and
third generation non-citizens on the Otherside and that's when things
become interesting. I actually see this as the higher probability
outcome than a UK which decides to use the Green Door as the pathway to
citizenship.
Perhaps this is where the going native persons come from?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Ironic that the promise of no-citizenship is more politically viable
than the promise of citizenship in 20 years, no?
People are damned stupid.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Maybe Argentine style settlement? Managed, but with rapid
expansion.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I could see that.
"After the conflict between the Green Acres Settlement and the Ark
Royal, it became Crown Policy that adjacent Steadings be, insofar as
possible, settled by groups of compatible ideology, resulting in
gradual clines of ideology, so as to avoid small scale civil war. The
remnants of this policy can be seen in the tendency of the West of New
London to vote Tory, and East to vote Lib Dem. The spider web pattern
of nodes of urbanisation also grants plenty of green space between
poleis."
Post by m***@willamette.edu
you're going to get some people going native, because humans are
weird
like that.<
Yes, but it's going to take a couple of generations. I don't'
see it by 2004. For one thing the Otherside will be to economically
dependent upon this side.
You don't think they'll be capable of independence by 2004? Not saying
it wouldn't be nasty, but surely possible? It would be totally
economically integrated, a resource economy if ever there was one, but
I'd see light and heavy manufacturing.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I really don't see it as being primarily rural, more mining than
anything else.<
Bottlenecks. Shipping food over would be a waste of Green Door time.
The things needed to be shipped over would be those things that can't
be easily made on the Otherside, like high tech manufactories. Food
can be grown, therefore lots of farms to support the mines and oil
wells.
Makes sense. Likely one of the first things the Army does with it's
base. This need not take that may people though. Industrial farming
just keeps getting better at mechanisation. Hey, Earth food would be
_expensive_ Other Side, probably so much so that luxury premium is an
insignificant modifier compared to the cost of transport. For
bottlenecks and such: I wonder how fast you could run trains if the
life span of rolling stock was a negligible cost, if the cargo was all
pretty damned valuable. For super silliness say that each end of the
"port" facility is five miles long, pressurised, yadda, yadda. You send
TGVs back and forth at speed, with cranes to pick up containers, in the
half a minute the train is at rest and transfer them to the conveyor
belt, then the train cycles back. You need to shut down one day a month
to replace _everything_ but eventually you've got this down to a fine
art, and the raw materials make the cost of the "port" trivial compared
to having a world's worth of minerals, oil and exotic flora and fauna.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
How Japanese will these immigrants be by this stage though?
That's one of the most interesting things about a continued Japanese
Empire TL, the very definition of what "Japanese" is gets radically
changed from OTL. Pre-Surrender it was already warping due to
increased immigration to the home islands and emigration of native
Japanese to parts of the empire, then the end of imperial Japan
resulted in the pretty homogenized definition of Japanese that we have
today.
Yeah. Isn't Japan the example used of a homogenous first world society?
Absent WW2 we'd use a relatively homogenous white Australia, or, if
that didn't exist, we'd have people saying that monoethnic first world
societies couldn't sustain first world levels of growth or other crap.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Again, how Japanese will they be?
Second and third Korean immigrants through the green door probably
speak Japanese perfectly. They are likely to be more Japanese than
those Koreans who remained in Korea, but to still be "off". Again,
you've got to TL it out to get specifics. "Do they have equal
rights?" needs to be answered to determine how assimilated they are.
I'd assume that all the discrimination they'd face would be unofficial.
Japan seems to have been surprisingly good at learning from other
people's mistakes OTL, more than likely doing as well as possible in
Korea, and brilliantly in assimilation in Micronesia. The nisei and
sansei Koreans behind the Green Door have no realistic choice but
Japan, and have never lived in any other cultural milieu, doubtless
their world view is informed by that. Also, the ancestral homeland is
under Japanese dominion, so they can even feel patriotic, in a way that
no "real" Korean would.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
What about those ports to deny Russia Pacific Coast I had in the
first post? Plausible?
The best bet would be during the Russian Civil War. If Japan is really
desperate it might be able to set up a White Regime heavily backed up
by Japanese bayonets to keep the Soviets out of Siberia.
I was working under the assumption that Japanese colonial interests
would shrink to Korea, Taiwan, Micronesia, and the Green Door, with all
else being subordinate to keeping the Green Door Japanese. ITTL there'd
be no horsing around in China, no Manchuria business, and in order to
keep the Soviets from the GD, a White puppet regime would be excellent,
they'd even be an excellent cats paw for Manchuria. That way Japan
still has considerable influence there, and the White puppet regime
might actually get enough Russians to look plausible.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Low-probability though.
Junior partners in the way
the Scottish were in the "British" English Empire, or in a 10% of
population leaves upon independence fleeing anti-collaborator mobs
way?<
The latter. I've always thought that a continued Japanese Empire
might have Korea go Algerian if/when Japan democratized and loosened
up
Post by m***@willamette.edu
the noose.
The one need not imply the other though it would be awkward. Really,
really awkward, and the effects of Korean unpleasantness on Manchukuo
would be interesting to watch, and thus unlikely. I suspect an awful
lot more Koreans would end up in Manchuria than in Japan, and that
those fleeing would continue to be followed by those looking for money,
Algeria is right. No way this would happen before the 70's at the
earliest so Korea would be a part of the Japanese cultural sphere
anyway, with 60 or 70 years of exposure to the language.

When are the promises next instalments of the Ishiwara Option coming?
Next month? Next two months?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-30 00:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Barry Cotter wrote:

[South Africans through the door]
if they're a significant fraction of the settler population.
Given that they aren't start going through en mass until the 1990's, at
the earliest, chances are that Britain will already have a sizeable
enough population on the other side of the door (Many of them "New
Commonwealth") that they will be unable to reach a critical mass.
which would fail, you'd get some USAn libertarian wing nuts, willing to
pledge allegiance for the chance to play the "Let's set up a society"
In my experience Libertarians for the most part just don't "walk the
walk." That is, there have been plenty of spiritual or communist
settlements start up, but no real libertarians ones. For example,
every time you hear a "nation has fallen into anarchy" have you ever
noticed how the Libertarians don't run there and start living in their
government-free paradise?

For the most part the Libertarians are content to be part of the
society and just complain about it, rather than try to start a new one.
expand. If weird groups form a significant fraction of settlement, say
the bare majority,
Doubtful. For one thing I don't think HMG would allow that to come
about. Not when they can get "normal" immigrants in significant
numbers. For another, I just don't think there are that many willing
to do it, in comparison to the millions of average people who would
immigrate for other reasons.
That's nice. No doubt the man on the ground gets to make policy for
some time, but by max. 10 years, all policy comes from the Otherside
Office in Whitehall, and it's informed by a British public opinion
But here's the tricky part: Who's in charge of carrying out those
policies? The man on the ground. And if the men on the ground
_really_ don't agree with the commands from up high, there are ways to
make sure that those orders don't come about. Governments often forget
that real life people carry out their orders, and if those people
regard those orders as against their best orders then problems result.


Heck, not just governments. Plenty of corporate reformers have said
something like, "I'm going to reform it so that all of those X's in the
company can be fired within the year!" and then are amazed when the X's
work to make sure the reforms don't come about.
were smarter, and they all used sign language. Just means they're not
vermin, not that we can't take their land.
They'll probably be no longer treated like vermin by the men on the
spot when the men on the spot find some useful usage for them. Beasts
of burden perhaps? Will the settlers or HMG stop slaving from
developing early on enough?

Oh, and a nasty question: Does the spiders and whatnot
high-but-not-human-high intelligence preclude domestification?
Involuntary emigration,
I have a _real_ hard time seeing the democratically elected British
government forcing the poor through the Green Door. "They're sending
out children to another dimension to get eaten by She-lub the Spider!"
there would certainly have been support. Also, the Other Side will
impinge little on FirstSide, except in economic fashion.
If it's considered part of the UK, then it should have electoral power
by 2004. It could be more powerful than Wales or Scotland in fact.
And the cutlural effect will be huge. Larger than India perhaps, and a
lot of Indian things in the UK go under the radar.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
citizenship.
Perhaps this is where the going native persons come from?
Lots of intersecting factors. Going "native" could have multiple
meanings. One for the 3rd generation white British citizen with full
legal rights on both sides of the door and went to school at Oxford II,
and another for the 3rd generation Turk who isn't a citizen but has
never known any home but the mining camp he was born in.
You don't think they'll be capable of independence by 2004? Not saying
it wouldn't be nasty, but surely possible?
In the same sense it's possible for Kuwait to be independent of the
world economy in 2004. That is, they could do it if they didn't mind
having every man, woman, and child suffer a 90%+ decrease in standard
of living, but realisitcally speaking it's not really possible.
base. This need not take that may people though. Industrial farming
just keeps getting better at mechanisation.
But those depend upon economies of scale. Farming on the Otherside is
going to be completely different depending upon if there are 1, 10, or
100 million people on the Otherside come 2004.
Hey, Earth food would be _expensive_ Other Side,
What reason would people have for eating food imported from ThisSide
Earth when it could just be grown or slaughtered on the OtherSide?
art, and the raw materials make the cost of the "port" trivial
compared
to having a world's worth of minerals, oil and exotic flora and fauna.
Be a hell of a sight to see though. I bet it would be featured in
numerous documentaries.
Yeah. Isn't Japan the example used of a homogenous first world
society?

Yes, I can't think of any other country that is as homogenous.
Absent WW2 we'd use a relatively homogenous white Australia,
Even then you have lots of Australians with non-English names. An
Australian with the last name of "Heinzbach" isn't going to get looked
at in the same way as a Japanese with the last name of "Kim" or "Lo" is
going to get looked at.
I'd assume that all the discrimination they'd face would be
unofficial.

Not a safe assumption, IMO.
Korea, and brilliantly in assimilation in Micronesia. The nisei and
sansei Koreans behind the Green Door have no realistic choice but
Japan,
There would always be the dream of an independent Korea to return to.
In OTL you still have Koreans in Japan giving money to North Korea,
because they sympathize with it, or have relatives there, or like that
it is so anti-Japanese.
ITTL there'd
be no horsing around in China, no Manchuria business, and in order to
keep the Soviets from the GD, a White puppet regime would be
excellent,
they'd even be an excellent cats paw for Manchuria.
It's possible. You'd really have to game it out to see how the dice
fell.
Algeria is right. No way this would happen before the 70's at the
earliest so Korea would be a part of the Japanese cultural sphere
anyway, with 60 or 70 years of exposure to the language.
There is a pretty good Korean movie out there that had Korea remain
part of the Japanese Empire. It features a big statue of the Taiko in
Seoul where in OTL there is a statue of a Korean national here.
When are the promises next instalments of the Ishiwara Option coming?
Next month? Next two months?
Errr. . .
Ah . . .

Well . . .

Look over there!

[runs away]

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2005-01-02 17:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
[South Africans through the door]
if they're a significant fraction of the settler population.
[1990's, at the earliest,Many Settlers on ground "New Commonwealth"]

Would Britain maintain greater influence over the poor Commonwealth
countries than OTL, which might or might not impact, on say, Kenya,
another likely source of settlers, long before 1990's?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
which would fail, you'd get some USAn libertarian wing nuts,
willing
Post by m***@willamette.edu
to
pledge allegiance for the chance to play the "Let's set up a
society"
[Libertarians, in the main, whiners]

Okay, not libertarians, but there's got to be some interesting R-wing
group out there, religious even.

[Many more normal than weird]

[Government makes policy, not man on ground]
[Man on ground enforces policy, if he doesn't like it, it doesn't get
enforced]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
were smarter, and they all used sign language. Just means they're not
vermin, not that we can't take their land.
They'll probably be no longer treated like vermin by the men on the
spot when the men on the spot find some useful usage for them.
Beasts
Post by m***@willamette.edu
of burden perhaps? Will the settlers or HMG stop slaving from
developing early on enough?
Yeeees. Sell them trinkets in exchange for labour. Slavery isn't all
that efficient, and it's extremely unpopular, while people care much
less about destroying other people's culture by giving them cheap steel
and machine goods, and alcohol or some other intoxicant in exchange for
backbreaking labour.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Oh, and a nasty question: Does the spiders and whatnot
high-but-not-human-high intelligence preclude domestification?
No reason it should. If you had an otherwise normal human with a 1000
year lifespan, they could domesticate humans. It'd work faster this way
if it was done in a planned way rather than haphazard.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Involuntary emigration,
I have a _real_ hard time seeing the democratically elected British
government forcing the poor through the Green Door. "They're sending
out children to another dimension to get eaten by She-lub the
Spider!"

Hmm. How can this be finessed? While straight out involuntary
emigration is almost impossible, getting a council house OtherSide
being 20 times easier than here probably isn't. Ditto for higher
quality houses, nicer gardens, etc., and lots and lots of government
propaganda masquerading as documentaries on the BBC.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
there would certainly have been support. Also, the Other Side will
impinge little on FirstSide, except in economic fashion.
If it's considered part of the UK, then it should have electoral power
by 2004. It could be more powerful than Wales or Scotland in fact.
That's only 40 years! Bigger than Wales or Scotland? I can see big, but
why would it get that big that fast?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
And the cutlural effect will be huge. Larger than India perhaps, and a
lot of Indian things in the UK go under the radar.
Oh dear. It's like the Wild West, except the idolised are the Army
units responsible for reconnaissance and clearing of threats, and the
Settlers. Guns'll be a featured difference between OtherSide and Home.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by m***@willamette.edu
citizenship.
Perhaps this is where the going native persons come from?
Lots of intersecting factors. Going "native" could have multiple
meanings. One for the 3rd generation white British citizen with full
legal rights on both sides of the door and went to school at Oxford II,
and another for the 3rd generation Turk who isn't a citizen but has
never known any home but the mining camp he was born in.
Why have Turks? The Indian subcontinent would provide all the labour
you could ever need, without even going into Africa, Hong Kong, the
Asians in Africa if/when they get expelled. Lessee, sansei white Brit,
Otherside is home, not Home, but I fail to see any great hardships he
would labour under or feel he labours under. Possibly, getting more
like him into administration rather than "Homers". As to non-citizen
guest-workers, I can't really see it. Britain's immigration policy (or
rather it's lack of one) has always been very liberal towards former
bits of Empire, and if all the concern is in an area that has few votes
for 20 or so years, why be other than OTL? BTW, Oxford II seems
unlekely for some time, technical colleges more likely. You do a year
or two in "Watford polytechnic" and if you can hack it, your family/the
government covers the astonishing price of Transit, and you go to
Oxford. Britain has it's own worldclass universities, why build more
when the only benefit is letting students go home more than once a
year?

[independence rather4 unlikely]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
base. This need not take that may people though. Industrial farming
just keeps getting better at mechanisation.
But those depend upon economies of scale. Farming on the Otherside is
going to be completely different depending upon if there are 1, 10, or
100 million people on the Otherside come 2004.
1 easily, 10, possibly, 100, more than current UK population, unlikely.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Hey, Earth food would be _expensive_ Other Side,
What reason would people have for eating food imported from ThisSide
Earth when it could just be grown or slaughtered on the OtherSide?
Snobbery. The desire to show off to one's neighbours that you can
afford/appreciate _real_ Freanh cheese or wine, that kind of thing.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
art, and the raw materials make the cost of the "port" trivial
compared
to having a world's worth of minerals, oil and exotic flora and
fauna.
Be a hell of a sight to see though. I bet it would be featured in
numerous documentaries.
Yes. No school tours there though, time really is money, Probably a
military installation.

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I'd assume that all the discrimination they'd face would be
unofficial.
Not a safe assumption, IMO.
Ok, not a safe assumption, but a plausible one? Surely they could see
that having a large disenfranchised minority works badly? After all
we're well within living memory of the ACW, and, and, all the examople
from decolonisation have yet to come about. Perhaps an analogue to the
American Civil Rights movement eventually, once the democracy of the
EoJ is more real than fictional?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Korea, and brilliantly in assimilation in Micronesia. The nisei and
sansei Koreans behind the Green Door have no realistic choice but
Japan,
There would always be the dream of an independent Korea to return to.
In OTL you still have Koreans in Japan giving money to North Korea,
because they sympathize with it, or have relatives there, or like that
it is so anti-Japanese.
Any idea what percentage of Japanese Koreans feel like that?

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
When are the promises next instalments of the Ishiwara Option coming?
Next month? Next two months?
Next three months?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2005-01-21 20:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Cotter
Would Britain maintain greater influence over the poor Commonwealth
countries than OTL,
Maybe a little, but not much IMO. Emigration is a nice safety value,
as is getting money from emigrants, but unless it's on a very large
scale (US-Mexico) it's usually not that good of a way to pressure a
country.
Post by Barry Cotter
Okay, not libertarians, but there's got to be some interesting R-wing
group out there, religious even.
Pre-UDI Rhodesia would probably be a good analogy. As I understand
many conservative types went there.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
If it's considered part of the UK, then it should have electoral
power
Post by m***@willamette.edu
by 2004. It could be more powerful than Wales or Scotland in fact.
That's only 40 years! Bigger than Wales or Scotland? I can see big, but
why would it get that big that fast?
Scotland has a population of what, six million or so? It's easily
possible to get a population that big Otherside.
Post by Barry Cotter
Oh dear. It's like the Wild West, except the idolised are the Army
units responsible for reconnaissance and clearing of threats,
Like the Canadian Mounties.
Post by Barry Cotter
Why have Turks?
Just an example off the top of my head from another European country
that allowed immigrants from non-European areas.
Post by Barry Cotter
for 20 or so years, why be other than OTL? BTW, Oxford II seems
unlekely for some time, technical colleges more likely.
Agreed. Laziness on my part for not wanting to look up a British
technical college.
Post by Barry Cotter
1 easily, 10, possibly, 100, more than current UK population,
unlikely.

I'll go with those.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
I'd assume that all the discrimination they'd face would be
unofficial.
Not a safe assumption, IMO.
Ok, not a safe assumption, but a plausible one?
If by plausible you mean the highest probability than no, IMO. If you
mean, "within the realm of acceptable possibility (IE non-ASB
territory)" then I'd say yes.
Post by Barry Cotter
Surely they could see
that having a large disenfranchised minority works badly?
How many successful bi-racial states were there in the first half of
the 20th century for them to come to that obvious conclusion?
Post by Barry Cotter
After all we're well within living memory of the ACW,
The lesson that was most agreed upon in that time frame was that it was
good for the North to free the slaves, but stupid for them to try and
get the South to treat the blacks as semi-equals.
Post by Barry Cotter
Perhaps an analogue to the
American Civil Rights movement eventually, once the democracy of the
EoJ is more real than fictional?
That would be my bet, but it would be a _very_ Japanized analogue with
lots of decolonization (Algeria-like) stuff thrown in.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
In OTL you still have Koreans in Japan giving money to North Korea,
because they sympathize with it, or have relatives there, or like
that
Post by m***@willamette.edu
it is so anti-Japanese.
Any idea what percentage of Japanese Koreans feel like that?
Sorry no. Small, I'd say, but there.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
When are the promises next instalments of the Ishiwara Option
coming?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Next month? Next two months?
Next three months?
Lord willing and the creek don't rise.

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2005-01-23 17:41:13 UTC
Permalink
[migration little effect on domestic policy]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Okay, not libertarians, but there's got to be some interesting R-wing
group out there, religious even.
Pre-UDI Rhodesia would probably be a good analogy. As I understand
many conservative types went there.
I almost feel sorry for them. !The Kenyan loyalists! There was a
significant portion of the Kenyan population that sided with the
British against the Mau-Mau, and were killed in gigantic numbers after
the British left. If anybody in power in Britain actually cares about
this, settling them Otherside salves conscience, and gives you copious
cheap labour with no place else to go, with no outside loyalties.
Pretty Good.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
If it's considered part of the UK, then it should have electoral
power
Post by m***@willamette.edu
by 2004. It could be more powerful than Wales or Scotland in fact.
That's only 40 years! Bigger than Wales or Scotland? I can see big,
but
Post by Barry Cotter
why would it get that big that fast?
Scotland has a population of what, six million or so? It's easily
possible to get a population that big Otherside.
What would you see as the likely proportions, i.e. British Empire
white, USAn white, Indians, Europeans, Irish, African Asians, Africans?
Obviously all of this is wildly variable, but given a policy of rapid
expansion, how would you see it going?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Oh dear. It's like the Wild West, except the idolised are the Army
units responsible for reconnaissance and clearing of threats,
Like the Canadian Mounties.
Who are suddenly struggling to retain staff as Britain hoovers up
anyone with appropriate experience.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
for 20 or so years, why be other than OTL? BTW, Oxford II seems
unlikely for some time, technical colleges more likely.
Agreed. Laziness on my part for not wanting to look up a British
technical college.
Entirely understandable. I took great, immature joy in walking around
the careers fair and asking British Universties if they were real
Universities or former polytechics before entering college.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
1 easily, 10, possibly, 100, more than current UK population,
unlikely.
I'll go with those.
20 wouldn't even be that hard. Be gigantic cultural implications that
high though, depopulation of crappy parts of Britain.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
I'd assume that all the discrimination they'd face would be
unofficial.
[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
If by plausible you mean the highest probability than no, IMO. If you
mean, "within the realm of acceptable possibility (IE non-ASB
territory)" then I'd say yes.
What would the poassibilities be, and their order of probability?
Segregation and violent repression seems unlikely, widespread petty
deiscrimination, sneering and such, more or less unavoidable.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Surely they could see
that having a large disenfranchised minority works badly?
How many successful bi-racial states were there in the first half of
the 20th century for them to come to that obvious conclusion?
How many are there now? We have examples of states where one ethnos
definitely holds the upper hand and there are other smaller minorities,
we have the USA which is much more than merely bi-racial, and we have
Malaysia, IIRC tri-racial, separate and almost equal, which _could_
descend into inter ethnic warfare though it's low probability.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
After all we're well within living memory of the ACW,
The lesson that was most agreed upon in that time frame was that it was
good for the North to free the slaves, but stupid for them to try and
get the South to treat the blacks as semi-equals.
It's an awful lot easier for a Korean to "pass" than for a black. I
imagine that'd be a significant demographic factor, with people moving
to a city where noone knows your name, and acquiring a Japanese one.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Perhaps an analogue to the
American Civil Rights movement eventually, once the democracy of the
EoJ is more real than fictional?
That would be my bet, but it would be a _very_ Japanized analogue with
lots of decolonization (Algeria-like) stuff thrown in.
I wonder what kind of a world it would take to have the centenary
celebrations of the Japanese Korean union tis year?

[anti-Japanese Korean Japanese]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
When are the promises next instalments of the Ishiwara Option
coming?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
Next month? Next two months?
Next three months?
Lord willing and the creek don't rise.
I've figured out what has the US howling in anguish. EoJ has declared
war on Russia, probably on Germany as well for cover. The President
realises that fighting somebody fighting communism, who has not
attacked the US is a horribly hard sell, and he's just used up gigantic
capital declaring war on Germany. He is thus less than pleased.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2005-02-03 05:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Cotter
British against the Mau-Mau, and were killed in gigantic numbers after
the British left.
Sadly a common state in a lot of post-independent collonies.
Post by Barry Cotter
If anybody in power in Britain actually cares about
this,
It's not that people don't care, it's that they don't care _enough to
actually do something_.
Post by Barry Cotter
settling them Otherside salves conscience, and gives you copious
cheap labour with no place else to go, with no outside loyalties.
Pretty Good.
Yep, what would you say the odds of it actually happening are though?
Post by Barry Cotter
What would you see as the likely proportions, i.e. British Empire
white, USAn white, Indians, Europeans, Irish, African Asians,
Africans?
Post by Barry Cotter
Obviously all of this is wildly variable, but given a policy of rapid
expansion, how would you see it going?
Urk . . . as you said it's wildly variable, but off the top of my head
I would say that the highest probability is around

35% British
35% European or American
and 30% Indian / African / Asians.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Like the Canadian Mounties.
Who are suddenly struggling to retain staff as Britain hoovers up
anyone with appropriate experience.
Well, we are talking about a Britian that is _just_ begining to wrap up
it's collonies. Plenty of colonial administration talent out their
available to being sent to the otherside.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
mean, "within the realm of acceptable possibility (IE non-ASB
territory)" then I'd say yes.
What would the poassibilities be, and their order of probability?
Again, off the top of my head I'm guessing:

40% Third Class citizens with legal restrictions.
40% Second class citizens with no legal restrictions, but high social
restrictions.
20% Near equality with petty social restrictions.
Post by Barry Cotter
widespread petty
deiscrimination, sneering and such, more or less unavoidable.
Pretty much, IMO.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
How many successful bi-racial states were there in the first half of
the 20th century for them to come to that obvious conclusion?
How many are there now?
That's awfully close to Bop-territory that I'd rather not go.
Post by Barry Cotter
It's an awful lot easier for a Korean to "pass" than for a black.
Well yes Japanese and Koreans are pretty indistinguishable on a
pyschical level (although their are plenty of societal clues). And of
course there are plenty of white Americans with some black in them once
you go a ways back.
Post by Barry Cotter
I
imagine that'd be a significant demographic factor, with people moving
to a city where noone knows your name, and acquiring a Japanese one.
It happened to some in OTL, but no where near the majority. I'm not
sure how a Japanese goes about chaning their name to tell the truth, or
how many Korean-Japanese have done so.
Post by Barry Cotter
I wonder what kind of a world it would take to have the centenary
celebrations of the Japanese Korean union tis year?
[whistles]

And it wouldn't actually be the centenary of the _union_. That didn't
happen until 1910.
Post by Barry Cotter
I've figured out what has the US howling in anguish.
I neither confirm nor deny.

--
Mike Ralls
Barry Cotter
2005-02-18 02:47:28 UTC
Permalink
I tried to send this to your e-mail a/c as this seems to be a dialogue,
but Yahoo says the public e-mail address is false. Mine ain't if you
feel like discussing this via e-mail.
[snip]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
If anybody in power in Britain actually cares
about
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
this,
It's not that people don't care, it's that they
don't care _enough to
Post by m***@willamette.edu
actually do something_.
Any way to save the harkis?

[snip]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Yep, what would you say the odds of it actually
happening are though?

Somewhere between zero and zip, absent someone with
friends in the papers willing to spend vast amounts of
money on a propaganda campaign.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Urk . . . as you said it's wildly variable, but off
the top of my head
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I would say that the highest probability is around
35% British
35% European or American
and 30% Indian / African / Asians.
Does British include White Commonwealth?

[snip]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
What would the poassibilities be, and their order
of probability?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
40% Third Class citizens with legal restrictions.
40% Second class citizens with no legal
restrictions, but high social
Post by m***@willamette.edu
restrictions.
You can become an officer, but you'll never rise to
command rank?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
20% Near equality with petty social restrictions.
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
How many successful bi-racial states were there
in the first half
Post by m***@willamette.edu
of
Post by Barry Cotter
Post by m***@willamette.edu
the 20th century for them to come to that
obvious conclusion?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
How many are there now?
That's awfully close to Bop-territory that I'd
rather not go.

Come on, in private e-mail.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
It's an awful lot easier for a Korean to "pass"
than for a black.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Well yes Japanese and Koreans are pretty
indistinguishable on a
Post by m***@willamette.edu
pyschical level (although their are plenty of
societal clues). And of
Post by m***@willamette.edu
course there are plenty of white Americans with some
black in them once
Post by m***@willamette.edu
you go a ways back.
Post by Barry Cotter
I
imagine that'd be a significant demographic
factor, with people
Post by m***@willamette.edu
moving
Post by Barry Cotter
to a city where noone knows your name, and
acquiring a Japanese one.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
It happened to some in OTL, but no where near the
majority. I'm not
Post by m***@willamette.edu
sure how a Japanese goes about chaning their name to
tell the truth, or
Post by m***@willamette.edu
how many Korean-Japanese have done so.
I'm not saying it'd be gigantic, just something
slotted into demographic models, as a year on year
thing, which is utterly common and acknowledged.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
I wonder what kind of a world it would take to
have the centenary
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
celebrations of the Japanese Korean union this
year?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
[whistles]
And it wouldn't actually be the centenary of the
_union_. That didn't
Post by m***@willamette.edu
happen until 1910.
You need a total war, which severely stresses social
structures, massive influxes of Koreans into Japan and
an enemy that the Koreans can hate much more than the
Japanese. So, what about a nutsoid Chinese warlord
with a hate for Koreans, of the kind Hitler had for
the Jews, with the execution Pol Pot had? Rationality
need not come into it, and neither need winnability.
He only needs enough for a gigantic push to wipe out
large parts of korea
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Barry Cotter
I've figured out what has the US howling in
anguish.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I neither confirm nor deny.
Aw. Come on. You denied that it was EoJ taking over
Indochina wholesale. PLease tell me. I swear it shall
not pass my lips or keyboard.

Please?

Barry Cotter
2005-01-02 18:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
[South Africans through the door]
if they're a significant fraction of the settler population.
[1990's, at the earliest,Many Settlers on ground "New Commonwealth"]

Would Britain maintain greater influence over the poor Commonwealth
countries than OTL, which might or might not impact, on say, Kenya,
another likely source of settlers, long before 1990's?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
which would fail, you'd get some USAn libertarian wing nuts,
willing
Post by m***@willamette.edu
to
pledge allegiance for the chance to play the "Let's set up a
society"
[Libertarians, in the main, whiners]

Okay, not libertarians, but there's got to be some interesting R-wing
group out there, religious even.

[Many more normal than weird]

[Government makes policy, not man on ground]
[Man on ground enforces policy, if he doesn't like it, it doesn't get
enforced]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
were smarter, and they all used sign language. Just means they're not
vermin, not that we can't take their land.
They'll probably be no longer treated like vermin by the men on the
spot when the men on the spot find some useful usage for them.
Beasts
Post by m***@willamette.edu
of burden perhaps? Will the settlers or HMG stop slaving from
developing early on enough?
Yeeees. Sell them trinkets in exchange for labour. Slavery isn't all
that efficient, and it's extremely unpopular, while people care much
less about destroying other people's culture by giving them cheap steel
and machine goods, and alcohol or some other intoxicant in exchange for
backbreaking labour.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Oh, and a nasty question: Does the spiders and whatnot
high-but-not-human-high intelligence preclude domestification?
No reason it should. If you had an otherwise normal human with a 1000
year lifespan, they could domesticate humans. It'd work faster this way
if it was done in a planned way rather than haphazard.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Involuntary emigration,
I have a _real_ hard time seeing the democratically elected British
government forcing the poor through the Green Door. "They're sending
out children to another dimension to get eaten by She-lub the
Spider!"

Hmm. How can this be finessed? While straight out involuntary
emigration is almost impossible, getting a council house OtherSide
being 20 times easier than here probably isn't. Ditto for higher
quality houses, nicer gardens, etc., and lots and lots of government
propaganda masquerading as documentaries on the BBC.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
there would certainly have been support. Also, the Other Side will
impinge little on FirstSide, except in economic fashion.
If it's considered part of the UK, then it should have electoral power
by 2004. It could be more powerful than Wales or Scotland in fact.
That's only 40 years! Bigger than Wales or Scotland? I can see big, but
why would it get that big that fast?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
And the cutlural effect will be huge. Larger than India perhaps, and a
lot of Indian things in the UK go under the radar.
Oh dear. It's like the Wild West, except the idolised are the Army
units responsible for reconnaissance and clearing of threats, and the
Settlers. Guns'll be a featured difference between OtherSide and Home.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by m***@willamette.edu
citizenship.
Perhaps this is where the going native persons come from?
Lots of intersecting factors. Going "native" could have multiple
meanings. One for the 3rd generation white British citizen with full
legal rights on both sides of the door and went to school at Oxford II,
and another for the 3rd generation Turk who isn't a citizen but has
never known any home but the mining camp he was born in.
Why have Turks? The Indian subcontinent would provide all the labour
you could ever need, without even going into Africa, Hong Kong, the
Asians in Africa if/when they get expelled. Lessee, sansei white Brit,
Otherside is home, not Home, but I fail to see any great hardships he
would labour under or feel he labours under. Possibly, getting more
like him into administration rather than "Homers". As to non-citizen
guest-workers, I can't really see it. Britain's immigration policy (or
rather it's lack of one) has always been very liberal towards former
bits of Empire, and if all the concern is in an area that has few votes
for 20 or so years, why be other than OTL? BTW, Oxford II seems
unlekely for some time, technical colleges more likely. You do a year
or two in "Watford polytechnic" and if you can hack it, your family/the
government covers the astonishing price of Transit, and you go to
Oxford. Britain has it's own worldclass universities, why build more
when the only benefit is letting students go home more than once a
year?

[independence rather4 unlikely]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
base. This need not take that may people though. Industrial farming
just keeps getting better at mechanisation.
But those depend upon economies of scale. Farming on the Otherside is
going to be completely different depending upon if there are 1, 10, or
100 million people on the Otherside come 2004.
1 easily, 10, possibly, 100, more than current UK population, unlikely.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Hey, Earth food would be _expensive_ Other Side,
What reason would people have for eating food imported from ThisSide
Earth when it could just be grown or slaughtered on the OtherSide?
Snobbery. The desire to show off to one's neighbours that you can
afford/appreciate _real_ Freanh cheese or wine, that kind of thing.
Post by m***@willamette.edu
art, and the raw materials make the cost of the "port" trivial
compared
to having a world's worth of minerals, oil and exotic flora and
fauna.
Be a hell of a sight to see though. I bet it would be featured in
numerous documentaries.
Yes. No school tours there though, time really is money, Probably a
military installation.

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
I'd assume that all the discrimination they'd face would be
unofficial.
Not a safe assumption, IMO.
Ok, not a safe assumption, but a plausible one? Surely they could see
that having a large disenfranchised minority works badly? After all
we're well within living memory of the ACW, and, and, all the examople
from decolonisation have yet to come about. Perhaps an analogue to the
American Civil Rights movement eventually, once the democracy of the
EoJ is more real than fictional?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Korea, and brilliantly in assimilation in Micronesia. The nisei and
sansei Koreans behind the Green Door have no realistic choice but
Japan,
There would always be the dream of an independent Korea to return to.
In OTL you still have Koreans in Japan giving money to North Korea,
because they sympathize with it, or have relatives there, or like that
it is so anti-Japanese.
Any idea what percentage of Japanese Koreans feel like that?

[deletia]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
When are the promises next instalments of the Ishiwara Option coming?
Next month? Next two months?
Next three months?
Post by m***@willamette.edu
--
Mike Ralls
Mike Ralls
2004-11-26 07:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The first nation to find out what the US has is the USSR,
from its spies.
I don't think I ever said how long it was before everyone
found out but say by 1980.
Well, with a secret as big as this I'd have a hard time seeing it
remain secret for as long as 22 years. In fact, it seems to me that
it would be in the interest of the US to let the USSR know about it
PDQ. After all, if the US makes a major effort to colonize it and has
millions of people on the other side, then that means that some part
of the US is going to survive whatever the soviets could throw at it,
and possibly be able to launch a counterattack from the other side of
the Green Door. The Soviets wouldn't have a hope of launching a
succesful first strike in this TL. That seems like it would increase
the US's deterence level.

Also, once the Green Door was common knowledge it would be easier for
the US to exploit and colonize the other world. Keeping it secret
would also cost a lot of money, time, and energy. And it would be
useful propoganda tool (God/Fate/the ASBs/Etc chose the US for this
wonderful gift, not the godless rat-bastard Commies!). In fact, I
don't see much advantage at all in keeping it secret.

Question: I assume that the US would retain a monopoly in colonizing
that other world up until the present day.

What does everone think would be the population of the Green World in
2004? How many stars would the US flag have in this TL?

What political effect would this colonization have on the US?

At a guess I would say it would increase the number and % of rural
Americans, agree or disagree?

Would this US be self-sufficent in oil? Geo-political effects of
that? Or would a bottleneck effect prevent such self-sufficentcy?

--
Mike Ralls
Gene Wirchenko
2004-11-30 16:05:46 UTC
Permalink
***@willamette.edu (Mike Ralls) wrote:

[snip]
Post by Mike Ralls
Well, with a secret as big as this I'd have a hard time seeing it
remain secret for as long as 22 years. In fact, it seems to me that
True. It might work if going there was one-way. That would tend
to lead to the colonial revolt effect though.
Post by Mike Ralls
it would be in the interest of the US to let the USSR know about it
PDQ. After all, if the US makes a major effort to colonize it and has
millions of people on the other side, then that means that some part
of the US is going to survive whatever the soviets could throw at it,
and possibly be able to launch a counterattack from the other side of
the Green Door. The Soviets wouldn't have a hope of launching a
succesful first strike in this TL. That seems like it would increase
the US's deterence level.
It is a very valuable resource. Consider it as a military
target.
Post by Mike Ralls
Also, once the Green Door was common knowledge it would be easier for
the US to exploit and colonize the other world. Keeping it secret
would also cost a lot of money, time, and energy. And it would be
useful propoganda tool (God/Fate/the ASBs/Etc chose the US for this
wonderful gift, not the godless rat-bastard Commies!). In fact, I
don't see much advantage at all in keeping it secret.
If the Soviets do not know where the resources are coming from,
it will be hard for them to target the source or to estimate U.S.
capabilities.
Post by Mike Ralls
Question: I assume that the US would retain a monopoly in colonizing
that other world up until the present day.
What does everone think would be the population of the Green World in
2004? How many stars would the US flag have in this TL?
Is the Other Side considered to be part of the US? What about
the possibility of a colony effect? The Boston Green Tea Party,
anyone?
Post by Mike Ralls
What political effect would this colonization have on the US?
Is it colonization or not? I think that this could make a big
difference.
Post by Mike Ralls
At a guess I would say it would increase the number and % of rural
Americans, agree or disagree?
Maybe in the medium to long term, but in the short term, I think
the emphasis would be on natural resources easily extracted.
Post by Mike Ralls
Would this US be self-sufficent in oil? Geo-political effects of
that? Or would a bottleneck effect prevent such self-sufficentcy?
Quite possibly. There is a big world there.

The Middle East is left to go hang?

Someone else asked how big the Door is.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
James Nicoll
2004-11-30 17:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Someone else asked how big the Door is.
50 meters, so you could run a train through it, if the air
pressure was the same on both side, which I see we eventually decided
they were probably not.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
Barry Cotter
2004-11-30 21:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Someone else asked how big the Door is.
50 meters, so you could run a train through it, if the air
pressure was the same on both side, which I see we eventually decided
they were probably not.
Um.

If you're willing to build a really gigantic "port" facility on either
side, this could be managed. You have a half circle on each side of
the GD, and it cycles back and forth rapidly carrying stuff, probably
in containers for ships. I imagine it'd be nasty to be inside them
because they want the fastest on-off times possible, and I bet well
designed machinery could get unload, load times down under 15v
seconds, then it returns. The "port" facility in Nevada is truly
gigantic, and pressurised in the appropriate manner (same pressure as
+250m, then surrounded for negative pressure with bio hazard level 3
saftety) this might work.

No one is going to give a monkeys what goes forward in time for some
time, and colonists will be introducing human useful, and cute animals
l,r&c, but such a facility seems at least technically possible, and
well worth the effort if it's the difference between being able to use
freight trains, and not.
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 02:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Given such a valuable resource it seems like the US would be willing to
spend such a "port facility."

Anyone know how much a thing such as that would cost?

Also, bottom line it for me. How much volume (am I correct in
imagining that weight wouldn't be as important a bottleneck as volume?)
is the US able to ship through a day?
Ship back a day?

--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 02:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Gene Wirchenko Nov 30, 8:05 am show options
Post by Gene Wirchenko
It is a very valuable resource. Consider it as a military
target.<

Hmm . . . it'll probably have a very impressive guard around it. Huge
radar and air force plus missile defense.

No ABM treaties in this world?
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Is the Other Side considered to be part of the US?
I don't see why not.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
What about the possibility of a colony effect?
The US has been pretty good at keeping people who move to new land to
consider themselves to be Americans. Having it be US territory and then
US states would probably kill the colony effect dead.

It really depends upon what % of Americans live on the otherside. If
it's 30 million (~10%) then we have a completely different social
situation than if it's 3 million.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Is it colonization or not?
If by colonization you mean the classic definition of people from one
polity going to settle a new place then I can't see how it could not be
colonized. If you mean is it run as a colony and US citizens who go
their become second-class citizens without full constitutional rights
(as is in the case in the tiny colonies the US has) then such a state
would require a lot of tremendous stupidity from the Americans. Not
ASB level, but pretty improbable IMO given a resource of such obvious
and long term definite.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Maybe in the medium to long term, but in the short term, I think
the emphasis would be on natural resources easily extracted.<

How are you defining short, medium, and long term?

I'd go with short 1-2 years, medium 10-50 years, long 50+ years.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Gene Wirchenko
The Middle East is left to go hang?
Given the high amount of oil the US uses, I don't see the door helping
that much (except as an emergency reserve), but on the otherside oil
should be dirt cheap.

So what resources would the Green Door help the US in?

Oh, and would we see the collapse of the Diamond market, or would
DeBeers come to power on the flipside?

--
Mike Ralls
James Gassaway
2004-12-07 05:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
If by colonization you mean the classic definition of people from one
polity going to settle a new place then I can't see how it could not be
colonized. If you mean is it run as a colony and US citizens who go
their become second-class citizens without full constitutional rights
(as is in the case in the tiny colonies the US has) then such a state
would require a lot of tremendous stupidity from the Americans. Not
ASB level, but pretty improbable IMO given a resource of such obvious
and long term definite.
IIRC, Puerto Rico has more than once voted to turn down statehood and remain
a US Territory. So it would seem that being a "second class US citizen"
ain't all bad. (We'll ignore the routine shelling by the US Navy :) )
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
mike
2004-12-07 15:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Hmm . . . it'll probably have a very impressive guard around it.
Huge radar and air force plus missile defense.
No ABM treaties in this world?
I don't see why this would kill the ABM treaty, as each side
was allowed two sites, one site to protect the National Command
Authority and one for military Strategic Missile Forces.

OTL Moscow kept thiers, but Congress killed the Grand Forks
SafeGuard site after it was operational for one day whole day.
[1]
Now with something like the G.D. to protect, well, why
not just plop a bunch of silos nearby and say
'Thats our Site One'

Or make a new Camp David retreat, and 'Thats Site Two'

I figure congress critters objecting to this would
be given a tour of the G.D. [2]

And the Soviets complaining? like anyone would believe
a 'Magic Doorway' story


[1] just imagine I just go off on a rant about this at this
spot for several paragraphs, but won't for space, and doesn't
advance the WI in any way.
[2] Given my feeling on some of those congress critters, a one
way trip.

**
mike
**
Coyu
2004-12-07 16:00:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike
[2] Given my feeling on some of those congress critters, a one
way trip.
Hm. Do you really want humanity's only far future offspring to be
descended from members of Congress?

Anyway, I am skirting the BoP. But I couldn't resist.
The Horny Goat
2004-12-08 06:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coyu
Post by mike
[2] Given my feeling on some of those congress critters, a one
way trip.
Hm. Do you really want humanity's only far future offspring to be
descended from members of Congress?
Anyway, I am skirting the BoP. But I couldn't resist.
Actually I'd settle for Stanley Kubrick's mineshafts - no need to tell
them WW3 has not in fact actually happened.

I believe there was an SF story some time back where the politicians
evacuated to their underground shelter complex - and no war occured.
Three or four generations later their descendents came out to find
out...
Angus McLellan
2004-12-08 13:59:32 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 06:44:47 GMT, The Horny Goat <***@home.ca>
wrote:

<snip>
Post by The Horny Goat
I believe there was an SF story some time back where the politicians
evacuated to their underground shelter complex - and no war occured.
Three or four generations later their descendents came out to find
out...
If it's PKD's _The Penultimate Truth_ you're thinking of it's the
proles who are down below and the pols who are on top.

Cheers,

Angus
--
"It is amazing what you can discover about people when you are willing
to just make stuff up." James Nicoll
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-09 00:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Find out what?

--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 02:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Gene Wirchenko Nov 30, 8:05 am show options
Post by Gene Wirchenko
It is a very valuable resource. Consider it as a military
target.<

Hmm . . . it'll probably have a very impressive guard around it. Huge
radar and air force plus missile defense.

No ABM treaties in this world?
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Is the Other Side considered to be part of the US?
I don't see why not.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
What about the possibility of a colony effect?
The US has been pretty good at keeping people who move to new land to
consider themselves to be Americans. Having it be US territory and then
US states would probably kill the colony effect dead.

It really depends upon what % of Americans live on the otherside. If
it's 30 million (~10%) then we have a completely different social
situation than if it's 3 million.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Is it colonization or not?
If by colonization you mean the classic definition of people from one
polity going to settle a new place then I can't see how it could not be
colonized. If you mean is it run as a colony and US citizens who go
their become second-class citizens without full constitutional rights
(as is in the case in the tiny colonies the US has) then such a state
would require a lot of tremendous stupidity from the Americans. Not
ASB level, but pretty improbable IMO given a resource of such obvious
and long term definite.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Maybe in the medium to long term, but in the short term, I think
the emphasis would be on natural resources easily extracted.<

How are you defining short, medium, and long term?

I'd go with short 1-2 years, medium 10-50 years, long 50+ years.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Gene Wirchenko
The Middle East is left to go hang?
Given the high amount of oil the US uses, I don't see the door helping
that much (except as an emergency reserve), but on the otherside oil
should be dirt cheap.

So what resources would the Green Door help the US in?

Oh, and would we see the collapse of the Diamond market, or would
DeBeers come to power on the flipside?

--
Mike Ralls
Gene Wirchenko
2004-12-10 16:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Gene Wirchenko Nov 30, 8:05 am show options
Post by Gene Wirchenko
It is a very valuable resource. Consider it as a military
target.<
Hmm . . . it'll probably have a very impressive guard around it. Huge
radar and air force plus missile defense.
But it would be a jugular vein. Any significant damage would
have a multiplier effect because of no backup. Another
U.S.-controlled Green Door would change the dynamics significantly.

[snip]
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Maybe in the medium to long term, but in the short term, I think
the emphasis would be on natural resources easily extracted.<
How are you defining short, medium, and long term?
I'd go with short 1-2 years, medium 10-50 years, long 50+ years.
^
10.

Given those numbers, let me change that to "short to medium
term".

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-22 06:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Gene Wirchenk
But it would be a jugular vein. Any significant damage would
have a multiplier effect because of no backup. <

Naaa. It's a useful bolt-hole and hiding place, but it doesn't
actually make the US that much stronger, except psychologically
speaking ("We know that *some* part of the US is going to survive 200
million years from now! . . . even if we did just set up the colony a
decade ago.) But physically it doesn't actually make the US that much
stronger. The transportation bottleneck prevents it from that. Oil,
for example, is a precious resource that the US absolutely needs to
survive, but I doubt the US could transport enough oil through the
gateway to make the price at the pump drop by more than 10 cents a
gallon. (That's just a guess . . . anyone want to do the math?)
--
Mike Ralls
Jon Leech
2004-12-22 09:09:13 UTC
Permalink
... Oil, for example, is a precious resource that the US absolutely
needs to survive, but I doubt the US could transport enough oil through
the gateway to make the price at the pump drop by more than 10 cents a
gallon. (That's just a guess . . . anyone want to do the math?)
"The Sumed pipeline, with a capacity of about 2.5 million bbl/d,
links the Ain Sukhna terminal on the Gulf of Suez with Sidi Kerir on
the Mediterranean. Sumed consists of two parallel 42-inch lines..."
-- http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/choke.html

US oil consumption is a bit over 20 million bbl/d, so presumably
that could be satisfied with 16 parallel 42-inch lines to satisfy.
Jon
__@/
David Johnson
2004-12-22 16:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Leech
... Oil, for example, is a precious resource that the US absolutely
needs to survive, but I doubt the US could transport enough oil through
the gateway to make the price at the pump drop by more than 10 cents a
gallon. (That's just a guess . . . anyone want to do the math?)
"The Sumed pipeline, with a capacity of about 2.5 million bbl/d,
links the Ain Sukhna terminal on the Gulf of Suez with Sidi Kerir on
the Mediterranean. Sumed consists of two parallel 42-inch lines..."
-- http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/choke.html
US oil consumption is a bit over 20 million bbl/d, so presumably
that could be satisfied with 16 parallel 42-inch lines to satisfy.
Jon
Or a block of pipes fourteen feet (4.26 meters) on a side. That takes up a
fair amount of the "door," is doable if you really, really need to.

Problems of then shipping _all_ of the U.S.'s oil from a single point in
Nevada to the entire country might be more of a bottleneck (not to mention
shipping all of the future-world's oil _to_ that single point _there_).
Also one hell of a hell of a jugular, militarilly speaking.

Of course, to lower your piping requirements you could stick your refinerys
on the "other side" as well and only have to pipe over the end results,
thus "condensing" the shipping considerably (add in a big industrial
development(s) on the "other side" and you can "condense" the shipping even
further).

Mind, these is all _real_ long term projects.

David
--
_______________________________________________________________________
David Johnson home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan

"You're a loony, you are!"
"They said that about Galileo, they said that about Einstein..."
"Yeah, and they said it about a good few loonies, too!"
Jon Leech
2004-12-23 08:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnson
Post by Jon Leech
US oil consumption is a bit over 20 million bbl/d, so presumably
that could be satisfied with 16 parallel 42-inch lines to satisfy.
Or a block of pipes fourteen feet (4.26 meters) on a side. That takes up a
fair amount of the "door," is doable if you really, really need to.
Less if you stagger the rows of pipes, or maybe use larger diameter
pipes (if that's possible).

I don't know what timeframe we're talking about - oil consumption in
the US has gone up fairly steadily, and so has the fraction we import,
but even so today imports look to be only about 60% of the total. And
even if we couldn't satisfy all of the imports from the GD, just a few
million bbl/day of new supply should have a big effect on oil prices
worldwide, which touches on the original question.

Jon
__@/
James Gassaway
2004-12-23 17:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Leech
Post by David Johnson
Post by Jon Leech
US oil consumption is a bit over 20 million bbl/d, so presumably
that could be satisfied with 16 parallel 42-inch lines to satisfy.
Or a block of pipes fourteen feet (4.26 meters) on a side. That takes up a
fair amount of the "door," is doable if you really, really need to.
Less if you stagger the rows of pipes, or maybe use larger diameter
pipes (if that's possible).
I don't know what timeframe we're talking about - oil consumption in
the US has gone up fairly steadily, and so has the fraction we import,
but even so today imports look to be only about 60% of the total. And
even if we couldn't satisfy all of the imports from the GD, just a few
million bbl/day of new supply should have a big effect on oil prices
worldwide, which touches on the original question.
What effect would such a supply have on the Strategic Reserve?

And how much would such a supply affect how much of a *bleep* we give about
what happens in the Middle East?
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
David Johnson
2004-12-23 18:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Gassaway
Post by Jon Leech
Post by David Johnson
Post by Jon Leech
US oil consumption is a bit over 20 million bbl/d, so
presumably
that could be satisfied with 16 parallel 42-inch lines to satisfy.
Or a block of pipes fourteen feet (4.26 meters) on a side. That
takes up
a
Post by Jon Leech
Post by David Johnson
fair amount of the "door," is doable if you really, really need to.
Less if you stagger the rows of pipes, or maybe use larger diameter
pipes (if that's possible).
I don't know what timeframe we're talking about - oil consumption in
the US has gone up fairly steadily, and so has the fraction we
import, but even so today imports look to be only about 60% of the
total. And even if we couldn't satisfy all of the imports from the
GD, just a few million bbl/day of new supply should have a big effect
on oil prices worldwide, which touches on the original question.
What effect would such a supply have on the Strategic Reserve?
Would we even have a Strategic Reserve - or would the Green Door
effectively take it's place?

David
--
_______________________________________________________________________
David Johnson home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan

"You're a loony, you are!"
"They said that about Galileo, they said that about Einstein..."
"Yeah, and they said it about a good few loonies, too!"
James Gassaway
2004-12-24 08:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnson
Post by James Gassaway
What effect would such a supply have on the Strategic Reserve?
Would we even have a Strategic Reserve - or would the Green Door
effectively take it's place?
Not with the bottleneck of the Green Door itself. Besides, part of the idea
of the Strategic Reserve in this scenario would be to have at least some of
the resources if you _lost_ the Door.
--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-28 00:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnson
Would we even have a Strategic Reserve - or would the Green Door
effectively take it's place?<

I imagine we would have a much larger Strategic Reserve than OTL. The
US would want a big reserve in case the mysterious door that appeared
for no reason closes for no reason. We are also likely to be more
dependent upon the green door for oil than we are for overseas oil in
OTL. Less fuel-efficient economy for one thing.

--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-28 00:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Gassaway
And how much would such a supply affect how much of a *bleep* we give about
what happens in the Middle East?<

A lot. The US would be unlikly to care very much about supporting the
various Arab dictatorships, except for how it effected teh Cold War.
The US would likely be much more pro-Israel and push harder for reform
(which thanks to the oil wealth of the green door the Arab
dictatorships would be less able to resist). What the results of a
more pro-Israel US would be seems to be too much BOPish for me to get
into.

We still would have probably stopped anything overly imperialist like
the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq though.

--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-28 00:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Leech
I don't know what timeframe we're talking about -
Aproximatly 1960 to Now, for the US.

1950 to Now for the UK.
1907 to Now for the Japanese.

IIRC.

--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-27 23:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnson
Or a block of pipes fourteen feet (4.26 meters) on a side. That takes up a
fair amount of the "door," is doable if you really, really need to.<

Well, what else does the US really need to be shipped from the
Otherside? Other than oil, I can't think of any bulk items. Any
plants that grow on the Otherside that are valuable could also probably
be grown Thisside and thus save on the transportation bottleneck.
Post by David Johnson
Problems of then shipping _all_ of the U.S.'s oil from a single point in
Nevada to the entire country might be more of a bottleneck<

Hmm. . . that's true but it would seem to be worth it in order to not
have to be oil dependent upon a volatile region. A whole bunch of
railroad lines would seem to be the best way to ship it from Nevada to
elsewhere.
Post by David Johnson
Also one hell of a hell of a jugular, militarilly speaking.
Yea, but good luck trying to convince the American people that they
should have expensive oil because of the military dangers of relying
too much on their magic doorway.
Post by David Johnson
on the "other side" as well and only have to pipe over the end
results,
SNIP
Post by David Johnson
Mind, these is all _real_ long term projects.
Sounds perfectly do-able over 40 years or so.

--
Mike Ralls
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 03:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Gene Wirchenko Nov 30, 8:05 am show options
Post by Gene Wirchenko
It is a very valuable resource. Consider it as a military
target.<

Hmm . . . it'll probably have a very impressive guard around it. Huge
radar and air force plus missile defense.

No ABM treaties in this world?
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Is the Other Side considered to be part of the US?
I don't see why not.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
What about the possibility of a colony effect?
The US has been pretty good at keeping people who move to new land to
consider themselves to be Americans. Having it be US territory and then
US states would probably kill the colony effect dead.

It really depends upon what % of Americans live on the otherside. If
it's 30 million (~10%) then we have a completely different social
situation than if it's 3 million.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Is it colonization or not?
If by colonization you mean the classic definition of people from one
polity going to settle a new place then I can't see how it could not be
colonized. If you mean is it run as a colony and US citizens who go
their become second-class citizens without full constitutional rights
(as is in the case in the tiny colonies the US has) then such a state
would require a lot of tremendous stupidity from the Americans. Not
ASB level, but pretty improbable IMO given a resource of such obvious
and long term definite.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Maybe in the medium to long term, but in the short term, I think
the emphasis would be on natural resources easily extracted.<

How are you defining short, medium, and long term?

I'd go with short 1-2 years, medium 10-50 years, long 50+ years.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Gene Wirchenko
The Middle East is left to go hang?
So what resources could the US become

Given the high amount of oil the US uses, I don't see the door helping
that much (except as an emergency reserve), but on the otherside oil
should be dirt cheap.

--
Mike Ralls
Robert Shaw
2004-11-25 11:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Wilson
I was thinking along these lines too. Eating live plants is a rather
difficult lifestyle for an animal; along with all the toxins the
nutrient content is low and you need an elaborate digestive system. It
might be interesting if the lifestyle was even harder. What I came up
with was a combinatorial toxin system for plants, equivalent to the
mammalian immune sytem. Bite on a leaf and you ingest three randomly
synthesised poisons. Bite on another leaf on the same twig and you get
three different poisons. Sooner or later you're dead, no matter how
fast you're evolving resistance.
Not if you have a liver that also works like the immune system,
capable of producing a combinatorial exploson of detoxifying
enzymes.

Also, an handful of enzymes, each targeting a single functional
group can detoxify almost all the millions of poisons containing
those groups, reducing the scale of the problem.


--
Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort
Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first.
That is the heart of physics - The rest is details.- Robert Shaw
Coyu
2004-11-25 16:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Muir
Alternate: plants finally, finally -- after over a billion years of
screwing around -- develop a method of photosynthesis that doesn't
grab the wrong damn molecule half the time, and require
photorespiration to get rid of the end products.
Ah, no. The key enzyme -- ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase --
really can't do this, because CO2 and O2 are too similar in shape
and electronic properties.

[rummaging]

Ah: http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/molecules/pdb11_1.html

It's like hemoglobin having that pesky affinity for carbon monoxide
as well as oxygen. (IMS, CO can also work in a Rubisco reaction.)

You'd have to start from scratch. Not going to happen.
James Nicoll
2004-11-25 16:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coyu
Post by Doug Muir
Alternate: plants finally, finally -- after over a billion years of
screwing around -- develop a method of photosynthesis that doesn't
grab the wrong damn molecule half the time, and require
photorespiration to get rid of the end products.
Ah, no. The key enzyme -- ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase --
really can't do this, because CO2 and O2 are too similar in shape
and electronic properties.
[rummaging]
Ah: http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/molecules/pdb11_1.html
It's like hemoglobin having that pesky affinity for carbon monoxide
as well as oxygen. (IMS, CO can also work in a Rubisco reaction.)
You'd have to start from scratch. Not going to happen.
Unless sometime between 1959 and the End of the Wordl as We
Know It, someone decides that, damn, the new photosynthesising
chemical seen in +250M is just so damn useful that they cut'n'paste
the genes into a contemporary plant, coincidentally the one thought
to be ancestral to the ones in +250M.

Doxy-glitches [1] are hard to avoid in scenarios like this but
I don't see a physical reason why they can't happen.


1: Aztec Ace, where a more flexible form of time travel led to serious
causality problems, like causeless effects.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 02:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Doxy-glitches [1] are hard to avoid in scenarios like this but
I don't see a physical reason why they can't happen.<

Iin such a Time-travel method it seems that each side would keep
changing the other until eventually you would reach a point where they
would stop changing each other, because 10^x changes would have
happened until you reach a reality in which all changes stop, thus
stabalizing the situation.

--
Mike Ralls
Mad Bad Rabbit
2004-11-25 17:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coyu
Post by Doug Muir
Alternate: plants finally, finally -- after over a billion years of
screwing around -- develop a method of photosynthesis that doesn't
grab the wrong damn molecule half the time, and require
photorespiration to get rid of the end products.
Ah, no. The key enzyme -- ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase --
really can't do this, because CO2 and O2 are too similar in shape
and electronic properties.
Could plants evolve some sort of CO2-concentrator organ
(using solvents or permeable membranes) so the cells with
the RUBISCO didn't have to deal with O2 ?

If I understand correctly, C4 plants are already sort of
doing this -- maybe by the time of Green Door, they've
gotten a lot better at it.
--
Post by Coyu
;k
Mike Ralls
2004-11-26 07:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coyu
It's like hemoglobin having that pesky affinity for carbon monoxide
as well as oxygen. (IMS, CO can also work in a Rubisco reaction.)
You'd have to start from scratch. Not going to happen.
Perhaps it could have started from scratch due to genetic engineering?

In fact, the extiction event seems to be so extreme that I would say
that it was probably caused by humans with technology far beyond that
of ours.

OTOH perhaps it was just a really big rock from space that hit the
Earth and caused even the oceans to freeze over.

--
Mike Rall
James Nicoll
2004-11-25 19:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Muir
Plants: the last Big Thing in plant evolution was the development of
flowers in the Cretaceous. Huge deal; flowers now totally dominate
land plants, and a few species -- mangroves and such -- are
considering colonizing the oceans.
Projection: flowering plants /do/ colonize the ocean. Hey, it's a big
niche. I think you can run with this one, no?
What are the oceans like, anyway? Most of the land is concentrated
in or near that super-continent. Does this mean that the oceans are mostly
deep, with a disconnected between the zone with sunlight and the one
with nutrients?

Something, a plant or community, that could exploit surface
light and deep resources would have a huge impact on the active biomass
in the oceans.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
m***@willamette.edu
2004-12-07 02:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Are ocean animals more likely to survive big extinction events than
their land based counterparts?

--
Mike Ralls
James Nicoll
2004-12-07 13:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@willamette.edu
Are ocean animals more likely to survive big extinction events than
their land based counterparts?
Nope.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
William P. Baird
2004-12-21 16:17:25 UTC
Permalink
VERY late follow-up. I was researching something else.
My apologies.
Post by Doug Muir
Plants: the last Big Thing in plant evolution was the development of
flowers in the Cretaceous. Huge deal; flowers now totally dominate
land plants, and a few species -- mangroves and such -- are
considering colonizing the oceans.
Projection: flowering plants /do/ colonize the ocean. Hey, it's a big
niche. I think you can run with this one, no?
"Sea grasses are the only flowering plants that live their entire
lives completely and obligately in seawater. Forty-five species
are known worldwide; six of those occur in Florida, and only
three are of major importance."

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/coastal/habitats/seagrass/awareness_day/info3.htm


? That would tell me that they are already doing so...albeit slowly.
It would be interesting to turn up when the said sea grasses evolved.

Will
Post by Doug Muir
Doug M.
--
William P Baird Do you know why the road less traveled by
Speaking for me has so few sightseers? Normally, there
Home: ***@gmail is something big, mean, with very sharp
Work: ***@nersc teeth - and quite the appetite! - waiting
Add .com/.gov somewhere along its dark and twisty bends
Strange Creature
2004-11-24 22:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Kind of a meta question but I don't think it came up
For various reasons, I was flipping through _Islands in
Space_ (Cole and Cox), a 1964 book on colonizing the asteroids.
The interesting thing is that the reason C&C pushed for doing this
was to increase the area human occupy by the same factor that our
ability to destroy had increased so that future wars would not
kill a disproportionate number of people.
With that in mind, on what event or events are the Americans
of the Cold War going to blame the extinction of humanity between Now
and +250M? How did the people of the 1950s and 1960s explain mass
extinctions, anyway?
There were no mass extinctions except for the dinosaurs
at the end of the Mesozoic.

All of the eggs of the dinosaurs were eaten by small
rodents. Maybe possibly some climate change.

I think that is how it went, anyway.
Mike Ralls
2004-11-26 07:28:41 UTC
Permalink
I've always found this TL very interesting, even if it is a "magical"
one. Glad to see it back.

Any chance we can get some kind of website or big ass post with
everything that is cannon about the Green Door world(s)?

--
Mike Ralls
Matt Giwer
2004-11-27 05:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Kind of a meta question but I don't think it came up
For various reasons, I was flipping through _Islands in
Space_ (Cole and Cox), a 1964 book on colonizing the asteroids.
The interesting thing is that the reason C&C pushed for doing this
was to increase the area human occupy by the same factor that our
ability to destroy had increased so that future wars would not
kill a disproportionate number of people.
With that in mind, on what event or events are the Americans
of the Cold War going to blame the extinction of humanity between Now
and +250M? How did the people of the 1950s and 1960s explain mass
extinctions, anyway?
Keep in mind back in the 1950s much less was known. The dinosaur
extinction was known but there was only speculation and it was
admitted to be only that. If I remember correctly volcanism was the
most common speculation. Earlier extinctions were unknown back then.
The large mammal die off in the Americas was attributed to the arrival
of the Indians. Some still argue for that today. And if you have been
following it, it is now almost certain dinosaurs survived the meteor
strike for at least 400,000 years.

As for what the future will blame, probably something we would find
hysterically funny.
--
I prefer free enterprise to capitalism. Most people do.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3281
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...