Discussion:
OT Question on the Catalonian referendum
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SolomonW
2017-10-02 10:15:11 UTC
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What we have seen that the Catalonian referendum that has causes much
violence, including unbelievably fireman and riot police fighting.

Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.

Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?

On a personal note, I think that the citizens should have the right to vote
in such a referendum, whether the courts rule it valid is another question?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Ned Latham
2017-10-02 11:26:04 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
What we have seen that the Catalonian referendum that has causes much
violence, including unbelievably fireman and riot police fighting.
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
On a personal note, I think that the citizens should have the right to vote
in such a referendum, whether the courts rule it valid is another question?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
The Australian Constitution can only be changed by a referendum in
which a majorityy of citizens in a majority of States vote "yes"
to the proposition. Therefore only a Commonwealth government can
call a valid referendum on a matter affecting the Constitution.

And the Constitution names the States and territories that are
members of the Commonwealth. It would therefore be affected
by a secession issue.
SolomonW
2017-10-02 12:14:31 UTC
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Post by Ned Latham
Post by SolomonW
What we have seen that the Catalonian referendum that has causes much
violence, including unbelievably fireman and riot police fighting.
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
On a personal note, I think that the citizens should have the right to vote
in such a referendum, whether the courts rule it valid is another question?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
The Australian Constitution can only be changed by a referendum in
which a majorityy of citizens in a majority of States vote "yes"
to the proposition. Therefore only a Commonwealth government can
call a valid referendum on a matter affecting the Constitution.
And the Constitution names the States and territories that are
members of the Commonwealth. It would therefore be affected
by a secession issue.
Western Australian were allowed to vote on the question, it was not
declared as illegal, the goverment did not call in the troops and there was
no violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australian_secession_referendum,_1933
Ned Latham
2017-10-02 12:52:10 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Ned Latham
Post by SolomonW
What we have seen that the Catalonian referendum that has causes much
violence, including unbelievably fireman and riot police fighting.
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in
the state of Western Australia which wanted to secede from the
Australian Federation. The referendum was allowed, but the vote
declared invalid as the courts ruled that majority of Australians
had to vote in favour to decide this question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed.
If declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
On a personal note, I think that the citizens should have the right
to vote in such a referendum, whether the courts rule it valid is
another question?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
The Australian Constitution can only be changed by a referendum in
which a majorityy of citizens in a majority of States vote "yes"
to the proposition. Therefore only a Commonwealth government can
call a valid referendum on a matter affecting the Constitution.
And the Constitution names the States and territories that are
members of the Commonwealth. It would therefore be affected
by a secession issue.
Western Australian were allowed to vote on the question, it was not
declared as illegal, the goverment did not call in the troops and
there was no violence.
Why would there even be any controversy? As you stated, the referendum
was declared iinvalid and the matter died dowqn. Madrid's problem is
that they don't know how to rule; that old "do nothing" wisdom really
works.
Post by SolomonW
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australian_secession_referendum,_1933
Don Phillipson
2017-10-02 12:16:57 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
The provincial government of Quebec held referenda in 1980 and 1995
concerning secession from Canada (a federal state since 1867.) No
law or custom defines who "wins" a referendum, viz. 50% + 1 or a two-
thirds majority etc., so at federal government request, the Supreme Court
of Canada ruled in 1998 concerning several points e.g. "whether a right
to unilateral secession exists under international law," see
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1643/index.do

Separatist passions have declined since that date so none of these
legal recommendations has been either implemented or challenged.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
SolomonW
2017-10-03 10:28:43 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
Post by SolomonW
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
The provincial government of Quebec held referenda in 1980 and 1995
concerning secession from Canada (a federal state since 1867.) No
law or custom defines who "wins" a referendum, viz. 50% + 1 or a two-
thirds majority etc., so at federal government request, the Supreme Court
of Canada ruled in 1998 concerning several points e.g. "whether a right
to unilateral secession exists under international law," see
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1643/index.do
Separatist passions have declined since that date so none of these
legal recommendations has been either implemented or challenged.
Thanks and not surprisingly it is very similar in the answer to what the
Australian system has that the whole country has to agree not just the
people in Quebec.

I will note in Canada not one stops these referendums nor are riot police
used to stop people voting in such referendums.
The Horny Goat
2017-10-03 16:21:22 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Thanks and not surprisingly it is very similar in the answer to what the
Australian system has that the whole country has to agree not just the
people in Quebec.
I will note in Canada not one stops these referendums nor are riot police
used to stop people voting in such referendums.
We are too polite :)
Rick Pikul/Chakat Firepaw
2017-10-03 18:11:42 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
Post by SolomonW
Thanks and not surprisingly it is very similar in the answer to what the
Australian system has that the whole country has to agree not just the
people in Quebec.
I will note in Canada not one stops these referendums nor are riot
police used to stop people voting in such referendums.
We are too polite :)
There is a reason that the game "Canadian Civil War" is one in which you
push deep into enemy territory to seize control of... THE ISSUES! All
the while worrying that your plans will be upset by... AN ELECTION!
--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor and Scientist (mad)
The Horny Goat
2017-10-03 21:56:41 UTC
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On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 18:11:42 -0000 (UTC), Rick Pikul/Chakat Firepaw
Post by Rick Pikul/Chakat Firepaw
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by SolomonW
Thanks and not surprisingly it is very similar in the answer to what the
Australian system has that the whole country has to agree not just the
people in Quebec.
I will note in Canada not one stops these referendums nor are riot
police used to stop people voting in such referendums.
We are too polite :)
There is a reason that the game "Canadian Civil War" is one in which you
push deep into enemy territory to seize control of... THE ISSUES! All
the while worrying that your plans will be upset by... AN ELECTION!
You remember that game? I loved it though I hated that Jim Dunnigan
made up his own provincial abbreviations as opposed to the standard
ones everybody but him uses.
jerry kraus
2017-10-03 18:08:38 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
Post by SolomonW
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Don Phillipson
The provincial government of Quebec held referenda in 1980 and 1995
concerning secession from Canada (a federal state since 1867.) No
law or custom defines who "wins" a referendum, viz. 50% + 1 or a two-
thirds majority etc., so at federal government request, the Supreme Court
of Canada ruled in 1998 concerning several points e.g. "whether a right
to unilateral secession exists under international law," see
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1643/index.do
Separatist passions have declined since that date so none of these
legal recommendations has been either implemented or challenged.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Don Phillipson
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Quebec is a very special case, Don. Quebec separatists aren't really separatists, they're French Nationalists who really want the whole of Canada to once more be New France. However, they have no means currently to arrange this, nor have had since the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. Hence, they are reduced to manipulating the Canadian system to maximize Quebec power within Canada itself, by "playing chicken" with the Canadian system, knowing full well that Canada without Quebec might be largely untenable as a nation. So, the mere threat of Quebec separatism is actually quite useful to the province of Quebec, simply as a means of increasing their political leverage within Canada itself.
The Horny Goat
2017-10-03 21:55:31 UTC
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On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT), jerry kraus
Quebec is a very special case, Don. Quebec separatists aren't really sepa=
ratists, they're French Nationalists who really want the whole of Canada to=
once more be New France. However, they have no means currently to arrang=
e this, nor have had since the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. Hence, the=
y are reduced to manipulating the Canadian system to maximize Quebec power =
within Canada itself, by "playing chicken" with the Canadian system, knowin=
g full well that Canada without Quebec might be largely untenable as a nati=
on. So, the mere threat of Quebec separatism is actually quite useful to =
the province of Quebec, simply as a means of increasing their political lev=
erage within Canada itself.
True - probably the most noxious element is the Quebec "Immigrant
Investor" program where "Investors" (which in 2010-17 is mostly from
Mainland China) pay Quebec for a Canadian visa - and something like
80-90% move within a year to Toronto or Vancouver.

Naturally neither Ontario nor BC ever sees a penny of that moolah
though each has to provide services for "Quebec's" immigrants.

This "Quebec quota" is over and above the "Canadian immigration
quota".
Ingo Siekmann
2017-10-03 10:27:30 UTC
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Hallo

Am 02.10.2017 um 12:15 schrieb SolomonW:
-snip
Post by SolomonW
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
In Germany: Could happen - in theory.

Some Bavarians really sued to get the permission for something like the
Catalonian referendum -, but the Bundesverfassungsgericht (federal
constitution court) stated in January that our constitution "does not
provide the possibility of the secession of individual federal states."

In this case, it was started by some die hard Bavarian super patriots
who are not taken serious by anybody - not even in Bavaria. Even if they
could get enough support for a illegal referendum, it would be
meaningless and a completely waste of time.

And if they manage somehow to get enough support to disturb the economy,
the federal government, the other states, the EU and esp. the Bavarian
corporations would politely cough and say: "Dudes, this is not fun
anymore."

So, we can not get rid of them. ;-)

Bye
Ingo
jerry kraus
2017-10-03 18:10:59 UTC
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Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo
-snip
Post by SolomonW
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Ingo Siekmann
In Germany: Could happen - in theory.
Some Bavarians really sued to get the permission for something like the
Catalonian referendum -, but the Bundesverfassungsgericht (federal
constitution court) stated in January that our constitution "does not
provide the possibility of the secession of individual federal states."
In this case, it was started by some die hard Bavarian super patriots
who are not taken serious by anybody - not even in Bavaria. Even if they
could get enough support for a illegal referendum, it would be
meaningless and a completely waste of time.
And if they manage somehow to get enough support to disturb the economy,
the federal government, the other states, the EU and esp. the Bavarian
corporations would politely cough and say: "Dudes, this is not fun
anymore."
So, we can not get rid of them. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Ve haf vays to make you stay in Chairmany"
Post by Ingo Siekmann
Bye
Ingo
SolomonW
2017-10-04 10:09:42 UTC
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Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo
-snip
Post by SolomonW
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
In Germany: Could happen - in theory.
Some Bavarians really sued to get the permission for something like the
Catalonian referendum -, but the Bundesverfassungsgericht (federal
constitution court) stated in January that our constitution "does not
provide the possibility of the secession of individual federal states."
In this case, it was started by some die hard Bavarian super patriots
who are not taken serious by anybody - not even in Bavaria. Even if they
could get enough support for a illegal referendum, it would be
meaningless and a completely waste of time.
And if they manage somehow to get enough support to disturb the economy,
the federal government, the other states, the EU and esp. the Bavarian
corporations would politely cough and say: "Dudes, this is not fun
anymore."
So, we can not get rid of them. ;-)
Bye
Ingo
There are a few in Germany all are minor. However, there are a few
separatist movements in France who are not minor, and I am sure they are
closely following this.
jerry kraus
2017-10-04 13:52:25 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo
-snip
Post by SolomonW
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
In Germany: Could happen - in theory.
Some Bavarians really sued to get the permission for something like the
Catalonian referendum -, but the Bundesverfassungsgericht (federal
constitution court) stated in January that our constitution "does not
provide the possibility of the secession of individual federal states."
In this case, it was started by some die hard Bavarian super patriots
who are not taken serious by anybody - not even in Bavaria. Even if they
could get enough support for a illegal referendum, it would be
meaningless and a completely waste of time.
And if they manage somehow to get enough support to disturb the economy,
the federal government, the other states, the EU and esp. the Bavarian
corporations would politely cough and say: "Dudes, this is not fun
anymore."
So, we can not get rid of them. ;-)
Bye
Ingo
There are a few in Germany all are minor. However, there are a few
separatist movements in France who are not minor, and I am sure they are
closely following this.
According to French media, Catalonia has just declared its independence, or is in the process of doing so, in any case.

https://fr.yahoo.com/news/roi-accuse-dirigeants-catalans-menacer-stabilit%C3%A9-lespagne-194908185.html
jerry kraus
2017-10-03 18:13:16 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
What we have seen that the Catalonian referendum that has causes much
violence, including unbelievably fireman and riot police fighting.
More to the point, Solomon, is Catalonian independence an inevitability given the attitude of the Catalans, and the incompetence of the Spanish federal government?
Post by SolomonW
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
On a personal note, I think that the citizens should have the right to vote
in such a referendum, whether the courts rule it valid is another question?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Alex Milman
2017-10-04 20:56:39 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
What we have seen that the Catalonian referendum that has causes much
violence, including unbelievably fireman and riot police fighting.
Now in Australia, such a referendum was held many years ago in the state of
Western Australia which wanted to secede from the Australian Federation.
The referendum was allowed, but the vote declared invalid as the courts
ruled that majority of Australians had to vote in favour to decide this
question.
Now my question is in your country would the referendum be allowed. If
declared illegal would force be used to stop it?
On a personal note, I think that the citizens should have the right to vote
in such a referendum, whether the courts rule it valid is another question?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Well, as of right now, there is more than one country/region/<whatever> which declared independence that is not recognized by its former government and the UN but recognized by SOME foreign government(s).

Kosovo - a precedent of the unilateral declaration of independence which is recognized by a number of countries but, IIRC, not by the UN. To quote Wiki, "There is an estimation that a group of between 70 and 200 unrecognized nations and organizations use the Kosovo precedent to achieve their goals."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent


As far as I can tell, the only comprehensive criteria of legality is "if it is recognized by the US"; if it is not, it is clearly, obviously and unquestionably illegal. Of course, there is a different, and absolutely incorrect point of view which formulates this criteria as "if it is recognized by Russia". I suspect that there is a broader definition: "if it can get away with it, preferably by having strong foreign power(s) supporting you". :-)

Abkhazia and South Ossetia used Kosovo as a precedent but by the reason listed above they are illegal and so are 2 separatist regions in Ukraine. Republic of Crimea also cited Kosovo as a precedent in their declaration of <whatever> but, by the obvious reasons, it is quite illegal (but they seemingly don't care).

So we have to wait until State Department will tell us if Catalonian referendum legal or not.
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