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WI Spanish expulsion of Jews happened 2 generations after Columbus?
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Rob
2017-09-29 22:38:41 UTC
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In 1492 Castille-Aragon performed a trifecta, conquering Granada, expelling the Jews and backing Columbus.

What if they only did two parts of the trifecta, conquering Granada and backing Columbus, in the 1490s--and if expulsion if the Jews was postponed another 2 generations, about 60years, circa 1550?

Thus by the time the Spaniards do the expulsion, the foundations for Spanish America have been laid. Let's further assume Spain had no rule excluding Jews, at least Castilian ones, from the Americas.

How would the participation of Jews in early Spanish colonization have changed things? And, with expulsion being applied to Jews in Spain but also to Jews throughout the Spanish Empire, how do global migrations of Jews change?

Finally, a basic plausibility question- was the expulsion of 1492 the kind of thing that had to happen when it did, or not happen at all? Or is a scenario involving the same outcome decades later plausible?
Alex Milman
2017-09-30 01:17:29 UTC
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Post by Rob
In 1492 Castille-Aragon performed a trifecta, conquering Granada, expelling the Jews and backing Columbus.
What if they only did two parts of the trifecta, conquering Granada and backing Columbus, in the 1490s--and if expulsion if the Jews was postponed another 2 generations, about 60years, circa 1550?
Thus by the time the Spaniards do the expulsion, the foundations for Spanish America have been laid. Let's further assume Spain had no rule excluding Jews, at least Castilian ones, from the Americas.
How would the participation of Jews in early Spanish colonization have changed things?
I'd recommend you to find and read "Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean": there are quite a few interesting facts on the subject.
Post by Rob
And, with expulsion being applied to Jews in Spain but also to Jews throughout the Spanish Empire, how do global migrations of Jews change?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_pirates#Jewish_pirates_of_Jamaica

This is about the most entertaining aspect of their migrations.
Post by Rob
Finally, a basic plausibility question- was the expulsion of 1492 the kind of thing that had to happen when it did, or not happen at all? Or is a scenario involving the same outcome decades later plausible?
Nothing "had to happen" but it was somewhat logical. Of course, the logic was more than a little bit idiotic but it was there. Somewhere. IIRC, during the reign of Carlos I of Spain (also known as Charles V) there was a discussion regarding the candidates into, in the modern terms "ministers of finances" and the fact that the candidates were Jewish had been overshadowed by the fact that they were the only people who had a clue about the finances. :-)

At the time when it DID happen (and the same applied to the Moors) it was, of course, an issue of a religious purity but it was also an issue of a looting on a fundamental scale. You can pick whatever motivation you prefer. Of course, as usual in these cases, the loot did not last for too long and the marranos and moriscos came handy.
j***@mdfs.net
2017-10-04 22:58:45 UTC
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Post by Rob
What if they only did two parts of the trifecta, conquering Granada
and backing Columbus, in the 1490s--and if expulsion if the Jews was
postponed another 2 generations, about 60years, circa 1550?
The Spanish overseas expansion happened *because* the reconquest had
finished and Spain could start looking outwards without having to
be watching inwards to unify the country. If Granada hadn't been
conquered by 1492 then Columbus would not have happened, altColumbus
would have happened later after whenever Granada was conquered.
Rob
2017-10-05 11:13:12 UTC
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How does your statement disagree with the OP, where indeed the conquest of Granada and Columbian expedition both happened in 1492?
Alex Milman
2017-10-05 20:21:15 UTC
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Post by Rob
How does your statement disagree with the OP, where indeed the conquest of Granada and Columbian expedition both happened in 1492?
In OTL Columbus' expedition did not produce and serious profits to the crown and this situation continued well into the reign of Charles V (IIRC, loot from Mexico started arriving AFTER the battle of Pavia). They allowed to produce the land grants for very few nobles and provided some limited export of the exotic goods into the European markets.

The Reconquista was over and Spain (Castile + Aragon) remained relatively poor country with a big military class that could not count on any further loot (until Charles VIII of France did them a favor by invading Italy in 1494). There is nothing unique in the fact that the "fighters for <whatever>" had been envious of those who was better off while not being an active participant of the glorious Reconquista, especially when they had been easily recognizable by faith. By expelling the unconverted Jews and Moors the government was filling its coffers (situation in 1492 was truly pathetic if Isabella REALLY had to pawn her jewels to equip 3 small ships) and silencing the unhappy ones. And when Inquisition came into the play, there was a continued flow of cash (part of the confiscated property) into the treasury and (IIRC) even something to those denouncing the "evil ones".

Now, back to your question, what if these things did not happen for the next few decades? I'm not sure that economic situation of Spain would change dramatically: the country had very little in the terms of "industry" of any type so why do you expect that after conquest of Granada economic situation in whole Spain would change noticeably to the better? There could be some private capital available but it was available prior to 1492.

Taking into an account that in less than 3 years Spain started its active involvement in the Italian Wars it is a fair guess that all available capital would be sucked into that ever-growing hole (as happened with the American silver and gold and income from the Netherlands).
Rob
2017-10-05 23:48:05 UTC
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Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
How does your statement disagree with the OP, where indeed the conquest of Granada and Columbian expedition both happened in 1492?
In OTL Columbus' expedition did not produce and serious profits to the crown and this situation continued well into the reign of Charles V (IIRC, loot from Mexico started arriving AFTER the battle of Pavia). They allowed to produce the land grants for very few nobles and provided some limited export of the exotic goods into the European markets.
The Reconquista was over and Spain (Castile + Aragon) remained relatively poor country with a big military class that could not count on any further loot (until Charles VIII of France did them a favor by invading Italy in 1494). There is nothing unique in the fact that the "fighters for <whatever>" had been envious of those who was better off while not being an active participant of the glorious Reconquista, especially when they had been easily recognizable by faith. By expelling the unconverted Jews and Moors the government was filling its coffers (situation in 1492 was truly pathetic if Isabella REALLY had to pawn her jewels to equip 3 small ships) and silencing the unhappy ones. And when Inquisition came into the play, there was a continued flow of cash (part of the confiscated property) into the treasury and (IIRC) even something to those denouncing the "evil ones".
Now, back to your question, what if these things did not happen for the next few decades? I'm not sure that economic situation of Spain would change dramatically: the country had very little in the terms of "industry" of any type so why do you expect that after conquest of Granada economic situation in whole Spain would change noticeably to the better? There could be some private capital available but it was available prior to 1492.
Taking into an account that in less than 3 years Spain started its active involvement in the Italian Wars it is a fair guess that all available capital would be sucked into that ever-growing hole (as happened with the American silver and gold and income from the Netherlands).
These are interesting further observations, but I was actually directing my question in my post recent post to the other participant in the thread, ***@mdfs.net
Alex Milman
2017-10-06 00:07:01 UTC
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Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
How does your statement disagree with the OP, where indeed the conquest of Granada and Columbian expedition both happened in 1492?
In OTL Columbus' expedition did not produce and serious profits to the crown and this situation continued well into the reign of Charles V (IIRC, loot from Mexico started arriving AFTER the battle of Pavia). They allowed to produce the land grants for very few nobles and provided some limited export of the exotic goods into the European markets.
The Reconquista was over and Spain (Castile + Aragon) remained relatively poor country with a big military class that could not count on any further loot (until Charles VIII of France did them a favor by invading Italy in 1494). There is nothing unique in the fact that the "fighters for <whatever>" had been envious of those who was better off while not being an active participant of the glorious Reconquista, especially when they had been easily recognizable by faith. By expelling the unconverted Jews and Moors the government was filling its coffers (situation in 1492 was truly pathetic if Isabella REALLY had to pawn her jewels to equip 3 small ships) and silencing the unhappy ones. And when Inquisition came into the play, there was a continued flow of cash (part of the confiscated property) into the treasury and (IIRC) even something to those denouncing the "evil ones".
Now, back to your question, what if these things did not happen for the next few decades? I'm not sure that economic situation of Spain would change dramatically: the country had very little in the terms of "industry" of any type so why do you expect that after conquest of Granada economic situation in whole Spain would change noticeably to the better? There could be some private capital available but it was available prior to 1492.
Taking into an account that in less than 3 years Spain started its active involvement in the Italian Wars it is a fair guess that all available capital would be sucked into that ever-growing hole (as happened with the American silver and gold and income from the Netherlands).
And I was actually answering to your initial questions but if you are unhappy ... :-)
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