Discussion:
AHC: Older elected president or PM than Mahathir
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David Tenner
2018-05-12 14:08:15 UTC
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Notice I don't say "head of state" because it's easy to have a monarch in his
or her nineties. But how about an elected [1] president or prime minister
older than Mahathir's current age (92)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahathir_Mohamad They called Konrad Adenauer
"Der Alte" but in fact he was a youngster of 87 when he stepped down as
Federal Chancellor...

[1] Elected, not "elected"--which is why a strongman like Mugabe doesn't
count.
--
David Tenner
***@ameritech.net
Rich Rostrom
2018-05-18 17:43:15 UTC
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Post by David Tenner
[1] Elected, not "elected"--which is why a strongman
like Mugabe doesn't count.
Except that Mugabe was actually elected. Elections
in Zimbabwe were not entirely "free and fair", and
in fact substantially corrupted and distorted. But
neither were they mere rituals where voters had no
choice.

In the election of 2008, opposition leader Tsvangirai
actually led in the first round, 48% to 43%. Tsvangirai
then claimed an actual win (i.e. over 50%), prevented
by fraud by Mugabe, and refused to participate in the
second-round runoff.

It is arguable that Tsvangirai's allegation was correct,
and that he was denied victory by intimidation and fraud
in voting in some areas dominated by Mugabe's followers.

However...

In the 1916 US Presidential election, supporters of
Democrat Woodrow Wilson carried out vote suppression
on a massive scale: over a million black citizens were
eleven southern states were illegally barred from voting,
a practice enforced by Ku Klux Klan violence.

(By 1916, the practice was so thoroughly entrenched that
no violence was needed to enforce it; no black in those
states dared challenge it.)

Wilson won the national popular vote by 570,000; had
those citizens been allowed to vote, Republican
Charles Hughes would have won by at least 500,000.
(Though to be sure, elections in those states being
effectively uncontested depressed white voting there
as well.)

Of course the popular vote does not choose the
President, and Wilson won the electoral vote 277-254.
However, his total popular vote margin in the eleven
states was about 862,000, and so Hughes could have
carried those states, flipping 125 EV. Again, though,
had blacks voted, white voters would almost certainly
have turned out in much greater numbers to oppose the,
and nine of those states had white majorities. But two
did not: Mississippi and South Carolina, which had 19
EV. If only those states flipped, that would be enough
to elect Hughes instead.

Arguably, then, Hughes should have won the 1916 election,
like Tsvangirai in 2008, and Wilson (like Mugabe) won in
part because of forcible suppression of opposition in some
areas.

Would one therefore say, though, that Wilson was not
elected, but "elected"?
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
The Horny Goat
2018-05-18 22:08:04 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2018 12:43:15 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by David Tenner
[1] Elected, not "elected"--which is why a strongman
like Mugabe doesn't count.
Except that Mugabe was actually elected. Elections
in Zimbabwe were not entirely "free and fair", and
in fact substantially corrupted and distorted. But
neither were they mere rituals where voters had no
choice.
Oh I dunno - Kim Jong-Un (who is much younger than Mugabe of course)
was freely elected in his country by a similar overwhelming majority
by people who chose him (admittedly on a basis of 'if you know what is
good for you and your family...")
Rich Rostrom
2018-05-20 18:18:42 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 18 May 2018 12:43:15 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by David Tenner
[1] Elected, not "elected"--which is why a strongman
like Mugabe doesn't count.
Except that Mugabe was actually elected. Elections
in Zimbabwe were not entirely "free and fair", and
in fact substantially corrupted and distorted. But
neither were they mere rituals where voters had no
choice.
Oh I dunno - Kim Jong-Un (who is much younger than
Mugabe of course) was freely elected in his country
by a similar overwhelming majority by people who
chose him...
Apparently you didn't notice the part where, in Zimbabwe,
opposition parties exist and function openly, winning
large shares of votes (and holding substantial numbers
of seats in the national legislature, though this does
not apply directly to the Presidency). I mentioned 2008;
in 2013, Mugabe cracked down harder, but Tsvangirai still
pulled 34% of the vote, including majorities in the cities
of Bulawayo and Harare (the capital).

In North Korea, the "Korean Workers Party" (Communists)
chooses a list of candidates for all legislative seats,
who are elected unopposed (607 seats for the KWP; 80 seats
are allocated to token minor parties). The legislature
then elects the State Affairs Commission Chairman, who
is elected unanimously.

See the difference?
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
The Horny Goat
2018-05-21 02:29:07 UTC
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On Sun, 20 May 2018 13:18:42 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 18 May 2018 12:43:15 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by David Tenner
[1] Elected, not "elected"--which is why a strongman
like Mugabe doesn't count.
Except that Mugabe was actually elected. Elections
in Zimbabwe were not entirely "free and fair", and
in fact substantially corrupted and distorted. But
neither were they mere rituals where voters had no
choice.
Oh I dunno - Kim Jong-Un (who is much younger than
Mugabe of course) was freely elected in his country
by a similar overwhelming majority by people who
chose him...
Apparently you didn't notice the part where, in Zimbabwe,
opposition parties exist and function openly, winning
large shares of votes (and holding substantial numbers
of seats in the national legislature, though this does
not apply directly to the Presidency). I mentioned 2008;
in 2013, Mugabe cracked down harder, but Tsvangirai still
pulled 34% of the vote, including majorities in the cities
of Bulawayo and Harare (the capital).
In North Korea, the "Korean Workers Party" (Communists)
chooses a list of candidates for all legislative seats,
who are elected unopposed (607 seats for the KWP; 80 seats
are allocated to token minor parties). The legislature
then elects the State Affairs Commission Chairman, who
is elected unanimously.
See the difference?
Oh absolutely - but you missed the sarcasm.

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