Discussion:
AHC: Soviets match Russia's Napoleonic War record, march to Berlin 21 months after getting invaded
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Rob
2017-06-10 02:16:54 UTC
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Napoleon invaded Russia on 24 June, 1812

He lost there and after 21 months Russian armies (with Allies) seized Paris.

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have the Soviet Armies after the start of Barbarossa seizing Berlin in the same number of days/weeks/months.

That would mean Soviets in Berlin by March 29, 1943.

Let's make this happen.

As long as Barbarossa *does* start and starts on its historic schedule of June 22, 1941, you can select a pre-invasion PoD. However, double your points for a post-invasion PoD.
c***@gmail.com
2017-06-10 21:41:59 UTC
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Post by Rob
Napoleon invaded Russia on 24 June, 1812
He lost there and after 21 months Russian armies (with Allies) seized Paris.
Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have the Soviet Armies after the start of Barbarossa seizing Berlin in the same number of days/weeks/months.
That would mean Soviets in Berlin by March 29, 1943.
Let's make this happen.
On December 8, 1941, FDR decides on a "Germany firs" strategy, and casts about for a quick way to make it happen. At the same time, Stalin is frantic about German armies driving toward Moscow. They have a meeting of the minds.

The US and Canada unite to quickly build the US-Canada-Alaska transportation corridor. The US and USSR also unite to quick upgrade a Trans-Siberia transportation corridor. The sea link is between a suitable Alaskan port, or perhaps another Pacific American or Canadian port, and a suitable Siberian port, perhaps Magadan.

In June, the US wins the battle of Midway, and decides to let the Japanese forces in the Aleutians to wither on the vine --- there's simply not enought benefit to justify the cost of retaking the Japanese held islands. US forces, equipment, and material pour into the USSR, so that by December, 1942, the joint US-USSR forces are prepared to undertake a series of offensives against the German forces.

Let's say that Patton replicates his breakout in Normandy, and races across the flat lands of Eastern Europe. The Sovs pull an operation Bragration at about this time as well. They probably won't reach Berlin by March, 1943, but at least they will be well on their way.

CC.
Alex Milman
2017-06-11 18:36:37 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Rob
Napoleon invaded Russia on 24 June, 1812
He lost there and after 21 months Russian armies (with Allies) seized Paris.
Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have the Soviet Armies after the start of Barbarossa seizing Berlin in the same number of days/weeks/months.
That would mean Soviets in Berlin by March 29, 1943.
Let's make this happen.
On December 8, 1941, FDR decides on a "Germany firs" strategy, and casts about for a quick way to make it happen. At the same time, Stalin is frantic about German armies driving toward Moscow. They have a meeting of the minds.
The US and Canada unite to quickly build the US-Canada-Alaska transportation corridor. The US and USSR also unite to quick upgrade a Trans-Siberia transportation corridor.
That's very interesting idea but how exactly this corridor is "upgraded"?
Building an alternative railroad is not a practical option: the attempts
started in 1938 and continued with the interruptions until 2003 with the
resulting addition still not 100% operational. It includes 2230 bridges,
numerous tunnels (the biggest is more than 15km long), high elevation areas,
areas of a high seismic activity, etc.

This, of course, besides the fact that its entry point on the Pacific is
more than thousand miles away from Alaska AND is to the South of Sakhalin
which means that if the US is at war with Japan, then only the Soviet ships
can be used and only for non-military materials.

Building a highway or a railroad from the Russian side of the Bering Strait and
all the way to Trans Siberian Railroad surely would be more than a few months
project.
Post by c***@gmail.com
The sea link is between a suitable Alaskan port, or perhaps another Pacific American or Canadian port, and a suitable Siberian port, perhaps Magadan.
Cool. And from Magadan to where exactly? Again, you need either a highway
or a railroad of which there were none (work on Kolyma Highway had been
conducted by GULAG prisoners and continued from 1932 till 1953). Not too
easy to build anything in permafrost and in one of the coldest places on
Earth.
Post by c***@gmail.com
In June, the US wins the battle of Midway, and decides to let the Japanese forces in the Aleutians to wither on the vine --- there's simply not enought benefit to justify the cost of retaking the Japanese held islands. US forces, equipment, and material pour into the USSR,
How exactly are they going to "pour" if the main Soviet ports on the Pacific
are "screened" by the Japanese-held territories?
Post by c***@gmail.com
so that by December, 1942, the joint US-USSR forces are prepared to undertake a series of offensives against the German forces.
IIRC, by the end of 1942 there were not too many American forces available
for anything but the fight on the Pacific and North Africa and the troops
in the North Africa had been just gaining a combat experience (even putting
aside Montgomery's definition of them being "undertrained and oversupplied"
they had many problems even by Bradley's account). Anyway, by the end of
1942 the US did not have enough of the marginally-prepared troops to make
difference on any European theater.

The next problem in that Grand Strategy is how exactly these (non-existent,
but let it be) American troops would be fighting side by the with the Red
Army. An idea of the join command, especially with the American colonel (or
was he already a major-general by the late 1942?) who never commanded anything
bigger than a battalion as a candidate for commander-in-chief position would
be a simple no go while OTOH I have very serious doubts that the US would agree
to put the American troops under the overall Soviet command (even as a
separate entity similar to the US-British arrangements of OTL).

Then come the supply issues: with the logistic line being extremely long,
it would be quite difficult not to mix the Soviet and American supplies and
I have very serious doubts that the US troops would be happy with having the
Soviet rations and other types of supplies (you can start with the cigarettes).
Post by c***@gmail.com
Let's say that Patton replicates his breakout in Normandy, and races across the flat lands of Eastern Europe.
The Patton legend grew absolutely out of proportions and well beyond any
common sense. Even superficial familiarity with the subject will tell you
that the main conditions for Patton's fast advances were a lot of gas and
not too many enemies at the front (he arrived to Bastogne very fast but making
a narrow corridor to the city took days). Anyway, an army commander who
(a) thought that with 20% losses any unit will disintegrate and (b) never
faced enemy's attack with a force of more than 2 divisions would have very
interesting time at the Eastern Front.

Well, to make things simpler, almost the last thing that Stalin wanted in
1943 was the US-British forces fighting together with the Red Army. When
(admittedly later) WC expressed an idea of the Allied landing on the Balkans
and the following joined advance, it was killed BOTH by FDR and Stalin.

Of course, it would be entertaining to consider a minimized version of your
scenario which involves not the US Army but rather a massive presence of the
American aviation (still unrealistic but ....) on the Eastern Front in the
early 1943. With the overwhelming advantage in the air the Soviets would be
able to destroy (or at least cripple beyond the repair) the bulk of the
German armor at the 3rd Battle of Kharkov and eliminate the conditions (Belgorod
Bulge) that led to the Battle of Kursk and if it was still happening, the
Germans would have serious problems with amassing the big numbers of the new
tanks in the open areas when the enemy controls the skies.
Post by c***@gmail.com
The Sovs pull an operation Bragration at about this time as well. They probably won't reach Berlin by March, 1943, but at least they will be well on their way.
It would be rather difficult to start Bagration without winning at Kursk: a
prerequisite was a (pretty much) destruction of the German armor.
The Horny Goat
2017-06-12 01:09:56 UTC
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On Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:36:37 -0700 (PDT), Alex Milman
Post by Alex Milman
Post by c***@gmail.com
The US and Canada unite to quickly build the US-Canada-Alaska transportation corridor. The US and USSR also unite to quick upgrade a Trans-Siberia transportation corridor.
That's very interesting idea but how exactly this corridor is "upgraded"?
Building an alternative railroad is not a practical option: the attempts
started in 1938 and continued with the interruptions until 2003 with the
resulting addition still not 100% operational. It includes 2230 bridges,
numerous tunnels (the biggest is more than 15km long), high elevation areas,
areas of a high seismic activity, etc.
This, of course, besides the fact that its entry point on the Pacific is
more than thousand miles away from Alaska AND is to the South of Sakhalin
which means that if the US is at war with Japan, then only the Soviet ships
can be used and only for non-military materials.
Building a highway or a railroad from the Russian side of the Bering Strait and
all the way to Trans Siberian Railroad surely would be more than a few months
project.
True enough - the Alaska highway was a GRAVEL ROAD that ended at
Fairbanks which is.a VERY long way from anywhere shipping to Siberia
could originate.

Both Fairbanks, AK and Dawson Creek, BC are far from any major cities
or railheads even today which to me makes the choice of those two
endpoints rather amazing in the context of early 1942.

Not to mention that the "Russian side of the Bering Strait" (by which
I assume means the point closest to Alaska) is a very very long way
from any connecting point to the Trans-Siberian railway. Guesstimating
that distance from the map looks to be 2000+ km over some fairly
hostile terrain. I know you're not saying this but I'd be amazed if
such a connector could be built in under a year even in 2017 never
mind wartime 1941-42 conditions.

The Horny Goat
2017-06-10 23:19:38 UTC
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:16:54 -0700 (PDT), Rob
Post by Rob
Napoleon invaded Russia on 24 June, 1812
He lost there and after 21 months Russian armies (with Allies) seized Paris.
Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have the Soviet Armies after the start of Barbarossa seizing Berlin in the same number of days/weeks/months.
That would mean Soviets in Berlin by March 29, 1943.
Let's make this happen.
As long as Barbarossa *does* start and starts on its historic schedule of June 22, 1941, you can select a pre-invasion PoD. However, double your points for a post-invasion PoD.
A good start would be the Red Air Force not losing most o their
strength on the first day of the war. Without German air superiority
Germany's going to have a tough time facing Soviet armor and if the
Red Air Force develops any kind of aerial "tank busting" capability
you could have *Kursk being fought in 1942 pretty much anywhere in
Ukraine east of Kiev.
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