Discussion:
OT On London’s Streets, Black Cabs vs Uber
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SolomonW
2017-07-04 10:26:18 UTC
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I think this is a fascinating article on how technology is affecting
established industries today.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/04/world/europe/london-uk-brexit-uber-taxi.html
j***@mdfs.net
2017-07-05 02:03:33 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
I think this is a fascinating article on how technology is affecting
established industries today.
What people forget, or chose to ignore, is that Black Cab taxis are
hackneys (ply for hire), Uber's taxis are private hire (pre-booked).
Ply-for-hire are naturally more tightly regulated as you are getting
whatever random stranger drives past you with no back-office record.

What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
complete and utter liberty to charge whatever the hell they like up to
that ceiling, so yes, natually, ***ANYBODY*** can choose to compete
on price if they so choose. ****INCLUDING**** Black Cabs.
SolomonW
2017-07-05 09:41:46 UTC
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Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
complete and utter liberty to charge whatever the hell they like up to
that ceiling, so yes, natually, ***ANYBODY*** can choose to compete
on price if they so choose. ****INCLUDING**** Black Cabs.
That is interesting.

Uber also often give specials and promotions.
w***@gmail.com
2017-07-05 16:14:04 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.

Uber's business model

(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
(4) profit.

They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.

wes
SolomonW
2017-07-06 09:50:58 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.
true
Post by w***@gmail.com
Uber's business model
(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
It remains to be seen whether they are unsustainable, Uber figures are bad
but they are getting better.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
This is speculation
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(4) profit.
Yep
Post by w***@gmail.com
They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.
wes
The Old Man
2017-07-06 10:45:06 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
To see what this would look like, view the movie "Total Recall" with Arnold Schwarzenegger. There was a sequence where Arnold hailed a self-driving cab called "Johnny Cab" and trashed it.

Regards,
John Braungart
Dimensional Traveler
2017-07-06 16:04:15 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.
true
Post by w***@gmail.com
Uber's business model
(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
It remains to be seen whether they are unsustainable, Uber figures are bad
but they are getting better.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
This is speculation
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(4) profit.
Yep
Post by w***@gmail.com
They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.
wes
The four steps of:
1: Undercut competition to drive them out of business (with repeated
local applications of this when upstarts try to restart competition)
2: Once monopoly established, jack up prices
3: Reduce payroll
4: Rake in money

are a well established business model and have been for hundreds of
years. Amazon did it, Standard Oil did it, etc. There is no reason to
think Uber, Lyft and the other "new" taxi companies aren't trying to do
the same thing. Especially step 2 since that's a key point to the few
at the very top making obscene amounts of money.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
SolomonW
2017-07-08 08:51:48 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by SolomonW
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.
true
Post by w***@gmail.com
Uber's business model
(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
It remains to be seen whether they are unsustainable, Uber figures are bad
but they are getting better.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
This is speculation
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(4) profit.
Yep
Post by w***@gmail.com
They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.
wes
1: Undercut competition to drive them out of business (with repeated
local applications of this when upstarts try to restart competition)
2: Once monopoly established, jack up prices
3: Reduce payroll
4: Rake in money
are a well established business model and have been for hundreds of
years. Amazon did it, Standard Oil did it, etc. There is no reason to
think Uber, Lyft and the other "new" taxi companies aren't trying to do
the same thing. Especially step 2 since that's a key point to the few
at the very top making obscene amounts of money.
Let assume that Uber is planning this, it does not mean it will happen, if
Uber jack up the price too much they will face problems from other taxi
companies.
Dimensional Traveler
2017-07-08 16:31:25 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by SolomonW
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.
true
Post by w***@gmail.com
Uber's business model
(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
It remains to be seen whether they are unsustainable, Uber figures are bad
but they are getting better.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
This is speculation
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(4) profit.
Yep
Post by w***@gmail.com
They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.
wes
1: Undercut competition to drive them out of business (with repeated
local applications of this when upstarts try to restart competition)
2: Once monopoly established, jack up prices
3: Reduce payroll
4: Rake in money
are a well established business model and have been for hundreds of
years. Amazon did it, Standard Oil did it, etc. There is no reason to
think Uber, Lyft and the other "new" taxi companies aren't trying to do
the same thing. Especially step 2 since that's a key point to the few
at the very top making obscene amounts of money.
Let assume that Uber is planning this, it does not mean it will happen, if
Uber jack up the price too much they will face problems from other taxi
companies.
I think you're missing the meaning of "monopoly". I also mentioned in
step 1 the need to occasionally reduce prices again in response to new
competition.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
SolomonW
2017-07-09 01:46:16 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by SolomonW
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by SolomonW
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.
true
Post by w***@gmail.com
Uber's business model
(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
It remains to be seen whether they are unsustainable, Uber figures are bad
but they are getting better.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
This is speculation
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(4) profit.
Yep
Post by w***@gmail.com
They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.
wes
1: Undercut competition to drive them out of business (with repeated
local applications of this when upstarts try to restart competition)
2: Once monopoly established, jack up prices
3: Reduce payroll
4: Rake in money
are a well established business model and have been for hundreds of
years. Amazon did it, Standard Oil did it, etc. There is no reason to
think Uber, Lyft and the other "new" taxi companies aren't trying to do
the same thing. Especially step 2 since that's a key point to the few
at the very top making obscene amounts of money.
Let assume that Uber is planning this, it does not mean it will happen, if
Uber jack up the price too much they will face problems from other taxi
companies.
I think you're missing the meaning of "monopoly". I also mentioned in
step 1 the need to occasionally reduce prices again in response to new
competition.
I find it very unlikely that Uber will get this monopoly which black cab
had and so was able to charge 30% over market rate.
Dimensional Traveler
2017-07-09 04:34:42 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by SolomonW
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by SolomonW
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by SolomonW
Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people also chose to forget is where there are regulated fares, the
regulated fare is a CEILING, not a floor, absolutely *ANY* taxi is at
Uber also often give specials and promotions.
I would guess another big difference is that black cabs make money while Uber loses money hand over fist.
true
Post by w***@gmail.com
Uber's business model
(1) undercut the competition by offering unsustainable fares,
It remains to be seen whether they are unsustainable, Uber figures are bad
but they are getting better.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(2) once the competition has been eliminated, raise fares,
This is speculation
Post by w***@gmail.com
(3) once (if) self-driving cars are available, get rid of drivers,
If this happens, all taxi drivers will go. I wonder if we all into a taxi
model. I take a car to work and let it go to pick up someone else.
Post by w***@gmail.com
(4) profit.
Yep
Post by w***@gmail.com
They are at step 1. They lost US$2.8 billion in 2016.
wes
1: Undercut competition to drive them out of business (with repeated
local applications of this when upstarts try to restart competition)
2: Once monopoly established, jack up prices
3: Reduce payroll
4: Rake in money
are a well established business model and have been for hundreds of
years. Amazon did it, Standard Oil did it, etc. There is no reason to
think Uber, Lyft and the other "new" taxi companies aren't trying to do
the same thing. Especially step 2 since that's a key point to the few
at the very top making obscene amounts of money.
Let assume that Uber is planning this, it does not mean it will happen, if
Uber jack up the price too much they will face problems from other taxi
companies.
I think you're missing the meaning of "monopoly". I also mentioned in
step 1 the need to occasionally reduce prices again in response to new
competition.
I find it very unlikely that Uber will get this monopoly which black cab
had and so was able to charge 30% over market rate.
Whether they will succeed in their strategy is a different matter from
what their intended strategy is. The people in charge of Uber obviously
think they can succeed or they wouldn't be attempting it.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Pete Barrett
2017-07-06 07:10:29 UTC
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Post by j***@mdfs.net
What people forget, or chose to ignore, is that Black Cab taxis are
hackneys (ply for hire), Uber's taxis are private hire (pre-booked).
Ply-for-hire are naturally more tightly regulated as you are getting
whatever random stranger drives past you with no back-office record.
But booking via internet and Uber's app has blurred that distinction. The
time between making the booking and being picked up is short enough (the car
is almost certainly out of the garage, parked somewhere or cruising around
waiting for a call), that the hirer _is_ being picked up by a random
stranger. They're not ringing a taxi firm that they know and trust.

If Uber don't do some check on their drivers (and they clearly do only the
most cursory check), then the only thing stopping them from robbing or
raping their passengers are the moral objections they might have, and that
it's not in their long term interest to do so. I wouldn't want to trust my
safety to that.
--
Pete BARRETT
SolomonW
2017-07-06 09:53:34 UTC
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Post by Pete Barrett
If Uber don't do some check on their drivers (and they clearly do only the
most cursory check), then the only thing stopping them from robbing or
raping their passengers are the moral objections they might have, and that
it's not in their long term interest to do so. I wouldn't want to trust my
safety to that.
How many people have been killed or attacked in a Uber vehicle by the
driver?

I think it is because Uber knows who the driver is, few murders would kill
someone knowing that their identity is already known to the authorities.
Dimensional Traveler
2017-07-06 16:04:58 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Pete Barrett
If Uber don't do some check on their drivers (and they clearly do only the
most cursory check), then the only thing stopping them from robbing or
raping their passengers are the moral objections they might have, and that
it's not in their long term interest to do so. I wouldn't want to trust my
safety to that.
How many people have been killed or attacked in a Uber vehicle by the
driver?
I think it is because Uber knows who the driver is, few murders would kill
someone knowing that their identity is already known to the authorities.
That has not stopped people before.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Pete Barrett
2017-07-07 12:18:13 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Pete Barrett
If Uber don't do some check on their drivers (and they clearly do only
the most cursory check), then the only thing stopping them from robbing
or raping their passengers are the moral objections they might have, and
that it's not in their long term interest to do so. I wouldn't want to
trust my safety to that.
How many people have been killed or attacked in a Uber vehicle by the
driver?
http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/rideshare-incidents

Of course, a lot of these will only be _alleged_ assaults (at least at the
moment); and this is an anti-Uber site, so they're unlikely to have rejected
any allegations, even if the the law enforcement agencies have; and even a
cursory glance shows that in some of these cases there's only a tenuous
connection to Uber. And I don't claim to have examined any of the cases, or
even the list.

But the very fact that the list is being compiled means that people are
worried.
Post by SolomonW
I think it is because Uber knows who the driver is, few murders would kill
someone knowing that their identity is already known to the authorities.
--
Pete BARRETT
Dimensional Traveler
2017-07-07 15:34:14 UTC
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Post by Pete Barrett
Post by SolomonW
Post by Pete Barrett
If Uber don't do some check on their drivers (and they clearly do only
the most cursory check), then the only thing stopping them from robbing
or raping their passengers are the moral objections they might have, and
that it's not in their long term interest to do so. I wouldn't want to
trust my safety to that.
How many people have been killed or attacked in a Uber vehicle by the
driver?
http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/rideshare-incidents
Of course, a lot of these will only be _alleged_ assaults (at least at the
moment); and this is an anti-Uber site, so they're unlikely to have rejected
any allegations, even if the the law enforcement agencies have; and even a
cursory glance shows that in some of these cases there's only a tenuous
connection to Uber. And I don't claim to have examined any of the cases, or
even the list.
But the very fact that the list is being compiled means that people are
worried.
Post by SolomonW
I think it is because Uber knows who the driver is, few murders would kill
someone knowing that their identity is already known to the authorities.
My neighbor drives for Uber. He used to drive for a regular taxi
company. He just finished a several week suspension by Uber because of
a customer complaint. I don't know any details about the complaint.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
SolomonW
2017-07-08 08:56:12 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Pete Barrett
Post by SolomonW
Post by Pete Barrett
If Uber don't do some check on their drivers (and they clearly do only
the most cursory check), then the only thing stopping them from robbing
or raping their passengers are the moral objections they might have, and
that it's not in their long term interest to do so. I wouldn't want to
trust my safety to that.
How many people have been killed or attacked in a Uber vehicle by the
driver?
http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/rideshare-incidents
Of course, a lot of these will only be _alleged_ assaults (at least at the
moment); and this is an anti-Uber site, so they're unlikely to have rejected
any allegations, even if the the law enforcement agencies have; and even a
cursory glance shows that in some of these cases there's only a tenuous
connection to Uber. And I don't claim to have examined any of the cases, or
even the list.
But the very fact that the list is being compiled means that people are
worried.
Post by SolomonW
I think it is because Uber knows who the driver is, few murders would kill
someone knowing that their identity is already known to the authorities.
My neighbor drives for Uber. He used to drive for a regular taxi
company. He just finished a several week suspension by Uber because of
a customer complaint. I don't know any details about the complaint.
Deplorable behavior is not just a problem with Uber.


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/over-400-london-cab-drivers-charged-with-crimes-last-year-a3226396.html
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