Discussion:
ASB-What if the Chechen & Ingush peoples, and their lands, go to North America in September 1861?
(too old to reply)
Rob
2018-02-22 00:59:49 UTC
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ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands under their feet down to the mantle, to the same latitude in the American west, ending up in patches of Wyoming and Colorado. The inhabitants of those lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position surrounded by Russia.

How is Chechen and American history changed by the presence of an old world Muslim people in a substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?

---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after 150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture, or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader American mass?

How is Russian history affected by the absence of the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small number of native and European-Americans?

The land swapped runs so deep that the mineral and fossil fuel resources of these areas are swapped along with the people and everything on the surface.
Rob
2018-02-23 02:50:16 UTC
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Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands under their feet down to the mantle, to the same latitude in the American west, ending up in patches of Wyoming and Colorado. The inhabitants of those lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the presence of an old world Muslim people in a substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after 150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture, or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader American mass?
How is Russian history affected by the absence of the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small number of native and European-Americans?
The land swapped runs so deep that the mineral and fossil fuel resources of these areas are swapped along with the people and everything on the surface.
This one was for Alex's benefit in particular.
Alex Milman
2018-02-23 16:32:20 UTC
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Post by Rob
Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands under their feet down to the mantle, to the same latitude in the American west, ending up in patches of Wyoming and Colorado. The inhabitants of those lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the presence of an old world Muslim people in a substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after 150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture, or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader American mass?
How is Russian history affected by the absence of the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small number of native and European-Americans?
The land swapped runs so deep that the mineral and fossil fuel resources of these areas are swapped along with the people and everything on the surface.
This one was for Alex's benefit in particular.
You are forcing my hand.

OK, on the Russian side there would be an audible sight of relief and on the "hosting" side in no time the new arrivals will start qualifying as the Indians in the terms of what represents a good one. :-)
Rob
2018-04-19 02:09:52 UTC
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Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands under their feet down to the mantle, to the same latitude in the American west, ending up in patches of Wyoming and Colorado. The inhabitants of those lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the presence of an old world Muslim people in a substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after 150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture, or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader American mass?
How is Russian history affected by the absence of the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small number of native and European-Americans?
The land swapped runs so deep that the mineral and fossil fuel resources of these areas are swapped along with the people and everything on the surface.
This one was for Alex's benefit in particular.
You are forcing my hand.
OK, on the Russian side there would be an audible sight of relief and on the "hosting" side in no time the new arrivals will start qualifying as the Indians in the terms of what represents a good one. :-)
On the one hand, the Americans would view them as an unusual form of Amerindian and be inclined to treat them as such.

But the Chechens and Ingush lack the vulnerability to alcoholism and disease that marked Amerindians. They have a strong sense of tribal and religious identity and the US federal government will be very, very busy for the next five years.

It seems to me that Muslim Chechens in the Rockies would not be likely to assimilate to larger American society, at least for a long, long time, but that they would also be less vulnerable to genocide or total demographic collapse than most Native American peoples. They could exact a high price on the Americans trying to kill them off, or govern them, or even just live next to them.
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-19 15:14:33 UTC
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Post by Rob
On the one hand, the Americans would view them as an
unusual form of Amerindian and be inclined to treat
them as such.
_Very_ different from Indians, especially the Indians of
the Great Plains and northern Rockies.

The Chechens and Ingush were _civilized_. Very backward,
by the standards of Western Europe or the US, but still
civilized. They farmed, worked metal, wove cloth, had
stone-built villages and towns, were literate (at least
the elite).

In short, they were roughly comparable to medieval
Englishmen.

Also, they were far more numerous than Indians. The
specified ISoT would bring at least 250,000 people,
perhaps as much as 1M. At this time, there were
probably fewer than 100,000 Indians west of the
Mississippi and outside the Indian Territory.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
The Horny Goat
2018-04-19 21:38:42 UTC
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On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:14:33 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Also, they were far more numerous than Indians. The
specified ISoT would bring at least 250,000 people,
perhaps as much as 1M. At this time, there were
probably fewer than 100,000 Indians west of the
Mississippi and outside the Indian Territory.
--
If they were that many they would probably dominate any area they
moved into.

Just from memory the population of British Columbia in 1871 was 36000
(can't recall if that included aboriginal peoples or not) while the
population of Utah in 1900 was ust under 300000.

Any group of 250k - 1 million at that time would dominate whichever
territory near or west of the Rockies they moved into with the
possible exception of central California.
Alex Milman
2018-04-19 23:10:42 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:14:33 -0500, Rich Rostrom
Post by Rich Rostrom
Also, they were far more numerous than Indians. The
specified ISoT would bring at least 250,000 people,
perhaps as much as 1M. At this time, there were
probably fewer than 100,000 Indians west of the
Mississippi and outside the Indian Territory.
--
If they were that many they would probably dominate any area they
moved into.
According to Wiki by 1861 there were only 140000 Chechens remaining in the Caucasus.

I have no idea why Rob bundled Chechens & Ingushi: AFAIK, they had been administratively joined by the Soviets but other than that their history is different. Ingushi were among the 1st nationalities of Caucasus to join Russian Empire (treaty of 1770), which did not prevent them from being squeezed from the part of their territory by the Cossack settlements. Taking into an account that they remained predominantly pagans until mid-XIX, there is not too much of a common between them and Chechens.

In 1897 there were less than 48K of them.

So, we are talking about the numbers comparable to those of the local Indians. Of course, as Rich already remarked, they were on a higher level of technological development than the Indians.
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-22 21:32:09 UTC
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Post by Alex Milman
According to Wiki by 1861 there were only 140000
Chechens remaining in the Caucasus.
In 1897 there were less than 48K of them [Ingushi]
Still about 200K all up - in a relatively compact area
(about 25,000 km^2).

Compare to 300K (if that) Indians in the entire western US -
about 10M km^2.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Alex Milman
2018-04-22 22:00:05 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Alex Milman
According to Wiki by 1861 there were only 140000
Chechens remaining in the Caucasus.
In 1897 there were less than 48K of them [Ingushi]
Still about 200K all up - in a relatively compact area
(about 25,000 km^2).
Compare to 300K (if that) Indians in the entire western US -
about 10M km^2.
Just dealing with the wild guesses. :-)
Rob
2018-04-23 01:27:35 UTC
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On Thursday, April 19, 2018 at 7:10:44 PM UTC-4, Alex Milman wrote:

This:

AFAIK, they had been administratively joined by the Soviets but other than that their history is different.

Is the answer to this question
The fact is I'm no expert on these nationalities,I only picked out the date of the teleportation because I saw it was around the period of Chechen subjugation.

I first heard of both nationalities in 1992, when the second or third page of the Washington Post or New York Times mentioned they had asserted secession from Russia at that time.

Then I did not hear about them again until the 1994 war.

So, I just ran with it and assumed they seceded together and this meant there was a common history prior to being grouped by Soviets - my bad.
Alex Milman
2018-04-23 15:12:37 UTC
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Post by Alex Milman
AFAIK, they had been administratively joined by the Soviets but other than that their history is different.
Is the answer to this question
The fact is I'm no expert on these nationalities,I only picked out the date of the teleportation because I saw it was around the period of Chechen subjugation.
I first heard of both nationalities in 1992, when the second or third page of the Washington Post or New York Times mentioned they had asserted secession from Russia at that time.
The Chechens did but not the Ingushi.
Post by Alex Milman
Then I did not hear about them again until the 1994 war.
So, I just ran with it and assumed they seceded together and this meant there was a common history prior to being grouped by Soviets - my bad.
Well, the monstrosity called "Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Repiblic" had been created artificially in 1936, then dissolved in 1943, then re-created in 1957 (within somewhat different borders) and in 1991 (?) fall apart. Ingush Republic maintained pro-Russian orientation.
The Horny Goat
2018-04-24 00:28:11 UTC
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On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 18:27:35 -0700 (PDT), Rob
Post by Alex Milman
AFAIK, they had been administratively joined by the Soviets but other than that their history is different.
Is the answer to this question
The fact is I'm no expert on these nationalities,I only picked out the date of the teleportation because I saw it was around the period of Chechen subjugation.
I first heard of both nationalities in 1992, when the second or third page of the Washington Post or New York Times mentioned they had asserted secession from Russia at that time.
Then I did not hear about them again until the 1994 war.
So, I just ran with it and assumed they seceded together and this meant there was a common history prior to being grouped by Soviets - my bad.
Then you didn't read the Gulag Archipelago (published early to mid
1970s) since Solzhenitsyn clearly said the Chechens were the ethnic
group most feared in the camps.

Which was long before 1991.

(Solzhenitsyn's camp time was roughly 1945-55)

Alex Milman
2018-04-19 15:55:48 UTC
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Post by Rob
Post by Alex Milman
Post by Rob
Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands under their feet down to the mantle, to the same latitude in the American west, ending up in patches of Wyoming and Colorado. The inhabitants of those lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the presence of an old world Muslim people in a substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after 150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture, or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader American mass?
How is Russian history affected by the absence of the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small number of native and European-Americans?
The land swapped runs so deep that the mineral and fossil fuel resources of these areas are swapped along with the people and everything on the surface.
This one was for Alex's benefit in particular.
You are forcing my hand.
OK, on the Russian side there would be an audible sight of relief and on the "hosting" side in no time the new arrivals will start qualifying as the Indians in the terms of what represents a good one. :-)
On the one hand, the Americans would view them as an unusual form of Amerindian and be inclined to treat them as such.
Taking into an account certain specifics of what can pass for the "national character", they'd be considered as "unusually unpleasant" form of <whatever> with all resulting consequences. :-)
Post by Rob
But the Chechens and Ingush lack the vulnerability to alcoholism and disease that marked Amerindians.
Well, AFAIK, when drunk they are even less pleasant than when sober so not too much of a gain there.
Post by Rob
They have a strong sense of tribal and religious identity and the US federal government will be very, very busy for the next five years.
Yes. By the end of which time they'd remain only as stuffed figures in the local museums. :-)
Post by Rob
It seems to me that Muslim Chechens in the Rockies would not be likely to assimilate to larger American society,
Most of them did not assimilate even in a much more accommodating environment. OTOH, the "cultured minority" were doing just fine. As of here (in the US) and now the only well-known example is Tsarnaev family: 2 generations living on a welfare, shoplifting, getting free education and then there was a loud "BOOOM!!!!" in Boston Marathon.
Post by Rob
at least for a long, long time, but that they would also be less vulnerable to genocide or total demographic collapse than most Native American peoples. They could exact a high price on the Americans trying to kill them off, or govern them, or even just live next to them.
It is an open question which of the listed options would be cheaper. On a completely cynical level, probably the 1st one. :-(
Rich Rostrom
2018-02-24 01:28:40 UTC
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Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands
under their feet down to the mantle, to the same
latitude in the American west, ending up in patches
of Wyoming and Colorado.
Chechnya and Ingushetia lie between 42.5N and 44N;
The border between Colorado and Wyoming is at 41N,
so all the transferees are in Wyoming. The area of
the OTL Wind River Reservation (Shoshone and
Arapaho) would be about right. The arrivals would
also be in contact with the Cheyenne, Crow, and
Flatheads.
Post by Rob
The inhabitants of those
lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain
men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position
surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the
presence of an old world Muslim people in a
substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after
150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture,
or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader
American mass?
There aren't enough Chechens to avoid effective
assimilation.
Post by Rob
How is Russian history affected by the absence of
the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small
number of native and European-Americans?
Middle Eastern history is affected, also. The Russian
conquest of Chechnya caused a wave of refugees into the
Moslem countries to the south, as far as NE Arabia.

(When the British first established the force that
developed into the Arab Legion, the men were
recruited from Chechen villages in Trans-Jordan.)
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Rob
2018-02-24 03:20:11 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands
under their feet down to the mantle, to the same
latitude in the American west, ending up in patches
of Wyoming and Colorado.
Chechnya and Ingushetia lie between 42.5N and 44N;
The border between Colorado and Wyoming is at 41N,
so all the transferees are in Wyoming. The area of
the OTL Wind River Reservation (Shoshone and
Arapaho) would be about right. The arrivals would
also be in contact with the Cheyenne, Crow, and
Flatheads.
Post by Rob
The inhabitants of those
lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain
men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position
surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the
presence of an old world Muslim people in a
substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after
150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture,
or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader
American mass?
There aren't enough Chechens to avoid effective
assimilation.
Post by Rob
How is Russian history affected by the absence of
the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small
number of native and European-Americans?
Middle Eastern history is affected, also. The Russian
conquest of Chechnya caused a wave of refugees into the
Moslem countries to the south, as far as NE Arabia.
(When the British first established the force that
developed into the Arab Legion, the men were
recruited from Chechen villages in Trans-Jordan.)
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
So to sum up the responses so far seem to be one vote for genocide versus one vote for assimilation.
WolfBear
2018-02-24 04:32:04 UTC
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Post by Rob
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands
under their feet down to the mantle, to the same
latitude in the American west, ending up in patches
of Wyoming and Colorado.
Chechnya and Ingushetia lie between 42.5N and 44N;
The border between Colorado and Wyoming is at 41N,
so all the transferees are in Wyoming. The area of
the OTL Wind River Reservation (Shoshone and
Arapaho) would be about right. The arrivals would
also be in contact with the Cheyenne, Crow, and
Flatheads.
Post by Rob
The inhabitants of those
lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain
men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position
surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the
presence of an old world Muslim people in a
substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after
150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture,
or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader
American mass?
There aren't enough Chechens to avoid effective
assimilation.
Post by Rob
How is Russian history affected by the absence of
the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small
number of native and European-Americans?
Middle Eastern history is affected, also. The Russian
conquest of Chechnya caused a wave of refugees into the
Moslem countries to the south, as far as NE Arabia.
(When the British first established the force that
developed into the Arab Legion, the men were
recruited from Chechen villages in Trans-Jordan.)
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
So to sum up the responses so far seem to be one vote for genocide versus one vote for assimilation.
It might be a mixture of the two. Indeed, I expect the Chechens to initially resist only to get treated the same way that Indians are treated and thus to gradually assimilate.
Alex Milman
2018-04-19 16:29:43 UTC
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Post by WolfBear
Post by Rob
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Rob
ASBs move the Chechens and Ingush, and the lands
under their feet down to the mantle, to the same
latitude in the American west, ending up in patches
of Wyoming and Colorado.
Chechnya and Ingushetia lie between 42.5N and 44N;
The border between Colorado and Wyoming is at 41N,
so all the transferees are in Wyoming. The area of
the OTL Wind River Reservation (Shoshone and
Arapaho) would be about right. The arrivals would
also be in contact with the Cheyenne, Crow, and
Flatheads.
Post by Rob
The inhabitants of those
lands, mainly a small number of natives and mountain
men, end up in Chechnya-Ingushetiya's position
surrounded by Russia.
How is Chechen and American history changed by the
presence of an old world Muslim people in a
substantial stretch of the Rocky mountains?
---Be bold and extrapolate what the impact is after
150 years. Is there a distinctive Chechen culture,
or is the group entirely dissolved into the broader
American mass?
There aren't enough Chechens to avoid effective
assimilation.
Post by Rob
How is Russian history affected by the absence of
the Chechen and Ingush and the arrival of a small
number of native and European-Americans?
Middle Eastern history is affected, also. The Russian
conquest of Chechnya caused a wave of refugees into the
Moslem countries to the south, as far as NE Arabia.
(When the British first established the force that
developed into the Arab Legion, the men were
recruited from Chechen villages in Trans-Jordan.)
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
So to sum up the responses so far seem to be one vote for genocide versus one vote for assimilation.
It might be a mixture of the two. Indeed, I expect the Chechens to initially resist only to get treated the same way that Indians are treated and thus to gradually assimilate.
They did not in Russia. No sure if the Indians completely assimilated either.
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