Discussion:
WI: Lee Harvey Oswald had been a right-wing racist
(too old to reply)
jerry kraus
2017-10-06 13:30:41 UTC
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Jackie Kennedy expressed considerable irritation with the fact that her husband had been assassinated by a "silly little communist", because the Kennedys considered themselves to be supportive of the left, in general, and to get along comparatively well with the communists, all things considered. Is this, by any chance, the origin of the whole Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory business? Is it all simply a psychological artifact of the fact that President Kennedy was considered a President of the Left, hence his assassin should not have been himself a failed defector to the Soviet Union? So, if Oswald had been a racist red-neck cracker, instead of a loony left-winger, would everyone have been content that he had been the lone assassin?

The reason I'm suggesting this possibility, at this time, are the rather bizarre conspiracy theories emanating from the recent shooting rampage in Las Vegas. Now, to a "liberal" like myself, it seems comparatively obvious that Stephen Paddock was the lone shooter, plagued throughout his life by the death of his father in prison, and hostile to the very capitalist system in which he was so successful, because of its dog eat dog nature. So, now that he was becoming an old man, he thought he could both get his own back, and get his father payback at the same time, by doing unto "Sin City" what it does to so many others -- really screwing it over. And Mr. Paddock certainly had the skills, intelligence and the resources -- as demonstrated by his highly successful career -- to do this quite effectively, entirely on his own. Indeed, we notice that President Trump has not attempted to call Mr. Paddock a "loser", as he has called the Muslim European terrorists. He's a "winner", hence, he's much, much better at killing!

But, the police are now babbling about multiple shooters, conspiracies and unspecified support networks, with no evidence at all apparently. Indeed, the Sheriff has actually accused the people of Las Vegas, as whole, of being responsible for the attacks, for not reporting and preventing Mr. Paddock's suspicious activities! Is it simply that the police cannot psychologically accept that a rich, white male like themselves and their supporters could have turned on their own? It does look a bit that way. They are talking a lot like Kennedy Conspiracy theorists, in dealing with the Las Vegas Massacre.
Don Phillipson
2017-10-06 16:44:27 UTC
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Post by jerry kraus
Jackie Kennedy expressed considerable irritation with the fact that her
husband
had been assassinated by a "silly little communist" . . .
Is this, by any chance, the origin of the whole Kennedy assassination
conspiracy
theory business?
Probably not, because conspiracy theories appeared long before Jackie
Kennedy's views on the matter had been published.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
jerry kraus
2017-10-06 18:07:50 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
Post by jerry kraus
Jackie Kennedy expressed considerable irritation with the fact that her
husband
had been assassinated by a "silly little communist" . . .
Is this, by any chance, the origin of the whole Kennedy assassination
conspiracy
theory business?
Probably not, because conspiracy theories appeared long before Jackie
Kennedy's views on the matter had been published.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Well Don, the implication of my point is, of course, that Jackie Kennedy's views were not unique to Jackie Kennedy, but, were somewhat ubiquitous at the time. In other words, why would a leftist murder a President who was so very popular with the left? Wouldn't it make more sense for some racist from Alabama to do it instead, where, after all, Bobby Kennedy had actually been mildly assaulted by a baton wielding state trooper in the governor's honor guard on his initial "state visit" to George Wallace's Alabama. Or perhaps the very racist FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, who violently disapproved of Kennedy's association with Martin Luther King. In any case, it tends to be psychologically difficult for people to accept that those they consider their allies could turn on them, and try to kill them and their own.
The Old Man
2017-10-06 19:03:11 UTC
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Post by jerry kraus
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by jerry kraus
Jackie Kennedy expressed considerable irritation with the fact that her
husband
had been assassinated by a "silly little communist" . . .
Is this, by any chance, the origin of the whole Kennedy assassination
conspiracy
theory business?
Probably not, because conspiracy theories appeared long before Jackie
Kennedy's views on the matter had been published.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Well Don, the implication of my point is, of course, that Jackie Kennedy's views were not unique to Jackie Kennedy, but, were somewhat ubiquitous at the time. In other words, why would a leftist murder a President who was so very popular with the left? Wouldn't it make more sense for some racist from Alabama to do it instead, where, after all, Bobby Kennedy had actually been mildly assaulted by a baton wielding state trooper in the governor's honor guard on his initial "state visit" to George Wallace's Alabama. Or perhaps the very racist FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, who violently disapproved of Kennedy's association with Martin Luther King. In any case, it tends to be psychologically difficult for people to accept that those they consider their allies could turn on them, and try to kill them and their own.
Jerry - I don't know your age, but I grew up during the sixties and I believe that even if Oswald was a rabid right-winger with a white-power tatoo, the government would have still made him out to be a Commie. Remember that the leftist Kennedy (of description) got us embroiled in Vietnam (no, it wasn't Johnson, all that cowboy did was to make things worse). The only reason that he backed off on Cuber (sic) was that he realized that that war could escalate totally out of control in no time.
Remember that there was a Commie under each bed and hiding in each closet when he was elected to the Presidency and by Krushchev's own words, they were going to bury us.

Regards,
John Braungart
jerry kraus
2017-10-09 13:13:36 UTC
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Post by The Old Man
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by jerry kraus
Jackie Kennedy expressed considerable irritation with the fact that her
husband
had been assassinated by a "silly little communist" . . .
Is this, by any chance, the origin of the whole Kennedy assassination
conspiracy
theory business?
Probably not, because conspiracy theories appeared long before Jackie
Kennedy's views on the matter had been published.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Well Don, the implication of my point is, of course, that Jackie Kennedy's views were not unique to Jackie Kennedy, but, were somewhat ubiquitous at the time. In other words, why would a leftist murder a President who was so very popular with the left? Wouldn't it make more sense for some racist from Alabama to do it instead, where, after all, Bobby Kennedy had actually been mildly assaulted by a baton wielding state trooper in the governor's honor guard on his initial "state visit" to George Wallace's Alabama. Or perhaps the very racist FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, who violently disapproved of Kennedy's association with Martin Luther King. In any case, it tends to be psychologically difficult for people to accept that those they consider their allies could turn on them, and try to kill them and their own.
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Post by The Old Man
Jerry - I don't know your age, but I grew up during the sixties and I believe that even if Oswald was a rabid right-winger with a white-power tatoo, the government would have still made him out to be a Commie.
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There are elements within the government that would have, John, but, certainly not Jackie Kennedy. Note her exact words -- "a silly, little communist". Are you seriously suggesting that J. Edgar Hoover would described Oswald in this fashion?? Of course not. He would have been "An extremely dangerous member of the communist fifth column", to the FBI. To Jackie Kennedy, Oswald was " a silly little communist" because he was attacking the wrong guy. The real enemies of the Kennedy administration within the U.S. were not the Left or the Communists, but the Right, the Racists and Conservatives in general, who opposed social justice and progressive change, which were the Progressive agenda of Kennedy's Camelot.

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Remember that the leftist Kennedy (of description) got us embroiled in Vietnam (no, it wasn't Johnson, all that cowboy did was to make things worse). The only reason that he backed off on Cuber (sic) was that he realized that that war could escalate totally out of control in no time.

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Naturally, in foreign affairs, Kennedy preferred American allies to Soviet allies, so he opposed a communist takeover of Vietnam. As for Cuba, obviously, the issue wasn't Communism, it was nuclear missiles that threatened the entire East Coast of the U.S.
Post by The Old Man
Remember that there was a Commie under each bed and hiding in each closet when he was elected to the Presidency and by Krushchev's own words, they were going to bury us.
Not to Kennedy. There's no indication Kennedy was particularly concerned about American communist fellow travelers. Martin Luther King was, more or less, a Communist fellow traveler, he had strong communist sympathies. Nevertheless, Kennedy ended up giving King everything he wanted, and more. King probably would have been dead much earlier without John F. Kennedy. And, I don't just mean "dead" in a political sense either. The Southern segregationists would certainly have lynched Martin Luther King without John F. Kennedy.
Post by The Old Man
Regards,
John Braungart
The Old Man
2017-10-06 19:07:31 UTC
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Post by jerry kraus
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by jerry kraus
Jackie Kennedy expressed considerable irritation with the fact that her
husband
had been assassinated by a "silly little communist" . . .
Is this, by any chance, the origin of the whole Kennedy assassination
conspiracy
theory business?
Probably not, because conspiracy theories appeared long before Jackie
Kennedy's views on the matter had been published.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Well Don, the implication of my point is, of course, that Jackie Kennedy's views were not unique to Jackie Kennedy, but, were somewhat ubiquitous at the time. In other words, why would a leftist murder a President who was so very popular with the left? Wouldn't it make more sense for some racist from Alabama to do it instead, where, after all, Bobby Kennedy had actually been mildly assaulted by a baton wielding state trooper in the governor's honor guard on his initial "state visit" to George Wallace's Alabama. Or perhaps the very racist FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, who violently disapproved of Kennedy's association with Martin Luther King. In any case, it tends to be psychologically difficult for people to accept that those they consider their allies could turn on them, and try to kill them and their own.
I forgot to add that Ambassador Stevenson was assaulted by a woman in Dallas a week before the assassination and warned Kennedy against going there. And at the time, the John Birch Society was pretty strong, especially in Texas, so no matter Oswald's political leanings, he still would have been a Commie.

Regards,
John Braungart
The Horny Goat
2017-10-07 00:48:48 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT), jerry kraus
Post by jerry kraus
Well Don, the implication of my point is, of course, that Jackie Kennedy's views were not unique to Jackie Kennedy, but, were somewhat ubiquitous at the time. In other words, why would a leftist murder a President who was so very popular with the left? Wouldn't it make more sense for some racist from Alabama to do it instead, where, after all, Bobby Kennedy had actually been mildly assaulted by a baton wielding state trooper in the governor's honor guard on his initial "state visit" to George Wallace's Alabama. Or perhaps the very racist FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, who violently disapproved of Kennedy's association with Martin Luther King. In any case, it tends to be psychologically difficult for people to accept that those they consider their allies could turn on them, and try to kill them and their own.
What are you suggesting? That Malcolm X or one of his disciples shoots
JEH? Given the mood in America at the time I cannot imagine this
ending well for racial equality in America during the 1960s.

Of course the big thing would be whether this would be after Kennedy
announces he is going to seek a Test Ban Treaty and his speech on
Civil RIghts in June 1963.

If you want an interesting POD write a scenario where JFK is murdered
6 months earlier - ie. before both those speeches. Because both of
them were seminal and LBJ might not feel the impetus to move the
agenda along quite the way it did in OTL if he becomes president six
months earlier.
jerry kraus
2017-10-09 19:48:07 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT), jerry kraus
Post by jerry kraus
Well Don, the implication of my point is, of course, that Jackie Kennedy's views were not unique to Jackie Kennedy, but, were somewhat ubiquitous at the time. In other words, why would a leftist murder a President who was so very popular with the left? Wouldn't it make more sense for some racist from Alabama to do it instead, where, after all, Bobby Kennedy had actually been mildly assaulted by a baton wielding state trooper in the governor's honor guard on his initial "state visit" to George Wallace's Alabama. Or perhaps the very racist FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, who violently disapproved of Kennedy's association with Martin Luther King. In any case, it tends to be psychologically difficult for people to accept that those they consider their allies could turn on them, and try to kill them and their own.
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Post by The Horny Goat
What are you suggesting? That Malcolm X or one of his disciples shoots
JEH? Given the mood in America at the time I cannot imagine this
ending well for racial equality in America during the 1960s.
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Something like that, possibly. I'm not really sure what effect his would have had on "racial equality", though. Bear in mind, MLK was just one side of the coin, the other was concurrent mass rioting and burning by blacks throughout the country -- carrot and stick, if you will. Really, Kennedy wasn't just being "nice" to blacks, he was trying to prevent a civil war in the U.S. Blacks were openly threatening to become communists if their demands were not met -- what would have prevented Russia and China from supplying them with heavy weapons? Even the most staunch segregationists in the South were well aware that their days were numbered.

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Post by The Horny Goat
Of course the big thing would be whether this would be after Kennedy
announces he is going to seek a Test Ban Treaty and his speech on
Civil RIghts in June 1963.
If you want an interesting POD write a scenario where JFK is murdered
6 months earlier - ie. before both those speeches. Because both of
them were seminal and LBJ might not feel the impetus to move the
agenda along quite the way it did in OTL if he becomes president six
months earlier.
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