Discussion:
Had the Holocaust not occurred, how much more developed would science and technology be?
(too old to reply)
WolfBear
2017-07-02 23:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Had the Holocaust not occurred (the best way to do this is probably to kill Adolf Hitler early enough), how much more developed would science and technology be today?

Basically, the Jews are a very talented people (in terms of their wealth, how much Nobel Prizes they win, et cetera) and thus I was wondering how much of a boost the development of science and technology would have if six million additional Jews as well as their descendants survived.

Indeed, any thoughts on this?
jerry kraus
2017-07-03 13:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by WolfBear
Had the Holocaust not occurred (the best way to do this is probably to kill Adolf Hitler early enough), how much more developed would science and technology be today?
Basically, the Jews are a very talented people (in terms of their wealth, how much Nobel Prizes they win, et cetera) and thus I was wondering how much of a boost the development of science and technology would have if six million additional Jews as well as their descendants survived.
Indeed, any thoughts on this?
Hard to say. It's not clear Jews are any smarter than anyone else, genetically, it's the Jewish culture that is education and achievement oriented which probably makes the difference. In any case, the Holocaust gave enormous additional leverage to the surviving Jews in the world, so, whatever talents they had were given rather more scope to develop, as a result of it. Antisemitism would probably be alive and well, still, in the world, without the Holocaust, there would probably be no state of Israel, and Jews would still be a repressed minority with few opportunities.
x
2017-11-14 22:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by WolfBear
Had the Holocaust not occurred (the best way to do this is probably to kill Adolf Hitler early enough), how much more developed would science and technology be today?
Basically, the Jews are a very talented people (in terms of their wealth, how much Nobel Prizes they win, et cetera) and thus I was wondering how much of a boost the development of science and technology would have if six million additional Jews as well as their descendants survived.
Indeed, any thoughts on this?
WolfBear
2017-11-15 03:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by WolfBear
Had the Holocaust not occurred (the best way to do this is probably to kill Adolf Hitler early enough), how much more developed would science and technology be today?
Basically, the Jews are a very talented people (in terms of their wealth, how much Nobel Prizes they win, et cetera) and thus I was wondering how much of a boost the development of science and technology would have if six million additional Jews as well as their descendants survived.
Indeed, any thoughts on this?
Umm ... Yes?
Insane Ranter
2017-11-15 12:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by WolfBear
Post by WolfBear
Had the Holocaust not occurred (the best way to do this is probably to kill Adolf Hitler early enough), how much more developed would science and technology be today?
Basically, the Jews are a very talented people (in terms of their wealth, how much Nobel Prizes they win, et cetera) and thus I was wondering how much of a boost the development of science and technology would have if six million additional Jews as well as their descendants survived.
Indeed, any thoughts on this?
Umm ... Yes?
A better question to ask if WW2 hadn't happened and the 70-80(?) million people had not died would we be better off?
Dimensional Traveler
2017-11-15 15:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Insane Ranter
Post by WolfBear
Post by WolfBear
Had the Holocaust not occurred (the best way to do this is probably to kill Adolf Hitler early enough), how much more developed would science and technology be today?
Basically, the Jews are a very talented people (in terms of their wealth, how much Nobel Prizes they win, et cetera) and thus I was wondering how much of a boost the development of science and technology would have if six million additional Jews as well as their descendants survived.
Indeed, any thoughts on this?
Umm ... Yes?
A better question to ask if WW2 hadn't happened and the 70-80(?) million people had not died would we be better off?
If WW2 hadn't happened would there have been the imperative to advance
science and technology so hard?
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
s***@yahoo.com
2017-11-16 09:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I suspect the bulk of the murder victims were not from modern high-tech places, and wouldn't have been inventing any big-ticket items. Since Germans had been suffering the pre-war slow boil early victimhood, a lot of them, such as Lisa Meitner and Einstein got out.

The war in general, not just the mass murder, caused severe disruption and wildly shifting priorities. Television was a very popular 1930's new tech, featured in fiction. It was probably set back years. Yes, late war missiles were TV guided, but that was small secret programs. I suspect computers were slowed down some. Kuno Zuse was having fun making them with his family, but got very little business. I think the Luftwaffe bought one. When moderns comiserated with him about lack of success, he said considering who was running things then, it's just as well.

Now, for those of you actually taking the risky time travel trip to save folks, don't go expecting Mr Hitler to be all that important. Yes he talked up anti-semitism, but that was an old 1870 Austian political trick, stirring up the rubes with fake threats, leading to crystal nacht modest numbers of murders, and actually theft was a bigger goal of it. The Wannsee conference notes make a good case that the purpose of the mass murder was a weasely scheme by the SS to pump up their own importance.

I don't want to be a total downer. I feel strongly that if the war had been mostly prevented the whole 20th ct. would have been hugely more productive. We were staring down the commies for half of it, with staggeringly unimaginably expensive unusable death machines. A tiny war followed by a true peace would have left us with resources to fly to the moon and beyond on a lark.

Nils K. Hammer
Rich Rostrom
2017-11-21 16:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Television was a very popular 1930's new tech, featured in fiction.
In the 1939 film _Raffles_, starring David Niven as
"The Amateur Cracksman", there is a scene in which
two Scotland Yard higher-ups discuss the mysterious
burglar's exploits. Then one of them turns on a TV
set to watch the Test match (in which Raffles is
bowling).

Yeah. Watching sports on TV in 1939 - and there is
no indication that this is some miracle to be pointed
out to the audience, they just do it.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
pyotr filipivich
2017-11-22 16:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Television was a very popular 1930's new tech, featured in fiction.
In the 1939 film _Raffles_, starring David Niven as
"The Amateur Cracksman", there is a scene in which
two Scotland Yard higher-ups discuss the mysterious
burglar's exploits. Then one of them turns on a TV
set to watch the Test match (in which Raffles is
bowling).
Yeah. Watching sports on TV in 1939 - and there is
no indication that this is some miracle to be pointed
out to the audience, they just do it.
As my father would cheerfully point out "No one born since the
invention of TV has lived as long as I have" - Of course, he was born
three years before TV was "invented".

I also recall reading the ads for technical jobs in the Exciting
New Field of Broadcast Television, in the 1930s! Get trained, make
upwards of $1000 a year!

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich.
For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait,
several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.
Don P
2017-11-23 22:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I suspect the bulk of the murder victims were not from modern high-tech places, and wouldn't have been inventing any big-ticket items. Since Germans had been suffering the pre-war slow boil early victimhood, a lot of them, such as Lisa Meitner and Einstein got out.
This is cogent, and omits only that the Holocaust was the last (if most
lethal) of a series of antisemitic measures that began in 1933 (with the
dismissal of Jews from state employment) and included direct economic
and social pressure to emigrate out of Germany. These measures were
sufficiently effective in the last six years of peace to force roughly
half of German Jews to emigrate (and the privileged, e.g.
internationally recognised researchers, were the most able to get
admission somewhere else.) So no major effect on S&T seems likely.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
WolfBear
2017-11-24 00:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Don P
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I suspect the bulk of the murder victims were not from modern high-tech places, and wouldn't have been inventing any big-ticket items. Since Germans had been suffering the pre-war slow boil early victimhood, a lot of them, such as Lisa Meitner and Einstein got out.
This is cogent, and omits only that the Holocaust was the last (if most
lethal) of a series of antisemitic measures that began in 1933 (with the
dismissal of Jews from state employment) and included direct economic
and social pressure to emigrate out of Germany. These measures were
sufficiently effective in the last six years of peace to force roughly
half of German Jews to emigrate (and the privileged, e.g.
internationally recognised researchers, were the most able to get
admission somewhere else.) So no major effect on S&T seems likely.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
I agree that a large part of the smart German and perhaps Austrian Jews were able to get out of Europe in time. However, this certainly can't be said for Jews from countries such as Poland! :(
Don P
2017-11-26 00:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by WolfBear
I agree that a large part of the smart German and perhaps Austrian Jews
were able to get out of Europe in time. However, this certainly can't be
said for Jews from countries such as Poland! :(
The practical point seems that from 1933 (and earlier) to 1939 Nazi
antisemitism was focussed solely on German Jewry. The Jews of Poland,
France, etc., were not mentioned (a) because the Third Reich had up to
1939 no capacity to deal with them and (b) because up to 1941 official
Reich government doctrine specified emigration as the practical aim, so
some German Jews emigrated to Poland and many to France, expecting they
would there be safe: as indeed they were so long as the peace was
maintained (as was the aim of Chamberlain and other statesmen.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Rich Rostrom
2017-11-28 17:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
These measures were sufficiently effective in the
last six years of peace to force roughly half of
German Jews to emigrate (and the privileged, e.g.
internationally recognised researchers, were the
most able to get admission somewhere else.) So no
major effect on S&T seems likely.
While most of the existing Jewish elite in Mitteleuropa
got away early, the great pool of middle and east
European Jewry from which this elite was drawn did not.

The survivors of this population later provided many
successful scientists and technologists in the USSR
and Israel.

One might also look at the achievements of east European
Jewry in the US: many highly successful American Jews,
including scientists and technologists, lost numerous
relatives to the Holocaust. Unless one wants to believe
that it was usually the smart ones in the family who
emigrated in 1890-1930, there is no reason to think that
that those who stayed in Europe would have contributed
less.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
s***@yahoo.com
2017-11-24 21:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I'm sorry we don't hear much about Poland, what the intelligencia were up to. Rejewski was mentioned nowhere when I was a kid. I don't suppose he was jewish? Do we have any pol-o-philes here? I met a guy at the Pittsburgh Veterans day a few years ago wearing the AK uniform, and that's where I learned most about it.

Nils K. Hammer
Don P
2017-11-26 18:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I'm sorry we don't hear much about Poland, what the intelligencia were up to. Rejewski was mentioned nowhere when I was a kid. I don't suppose he was jewish?
This probably refers to the code-breaker Marian Rejewski, whose
Wikipedia entry
suggests no Jewish connections (genetic or religious.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The Horny Goat
2017-11-26 20:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Don P
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I'm sorry we don't hear much about Poland, what the intelligencia were up to. Rejewski was mentioned nowhere when I was a kid. I don't suppose he was jewish?
This probably refers to the code-breaker Marian Rejewski, whose
Wikipedia entry
suggests no Jewish connections (genetic or religious.)
Can we assume all here know that Marian is a male name in Poland? (My
late father-in-law's name in fact) It's the Polish version of Martin.
Our wedding was something of a Polish version of My Big Fat Fabulous
Greek Wedding....

I assumed the name was Jewish as the American (Polish born but came to
US when 5 years old) chess grandmaster and 8 time US champion Sammy
Reshevsky had had his name spelled as Rejewski before coming to
America. Polish surnames routinely got scrambled into English - both
my wife's uncles served in the Canadian military with their names
spelled differently! (And my wife's family being descended from the
other brother spelled it differently yet)

It's mostly about how the letters with diacriticals get rendered into
English text. Eastern Ukrainian and Russia names from that area also
can render poorly into English - I know a Nataliia which confuses a
lot of people since English doesn't use the double i.
Loading...