Discussion:
Formation of a New Ocean
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The Old Man
2017-07-12 10:31:37 UTC
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I've been batting this one around for a while and think I might have latched onto a possible WI.

Lake Ontario (of the Great Lakes for non-Western Hemisphere folks) has been having problems with flooding of its banks this year. In addition, there have been minor (and deep) earthquakes for a while. Some time ago, I saw on a Nature Channel show about the Great Lakes that both Lakes Ontario and Superior are believed to be part of a Rift Valley, although parts of the same one weren't clear - for this posit, let's assume that they are. This Rift Valley continues up the St. Lawrence Channel to the east and appears to connect to the Mississippi River area (think New Madrid area) and very nearly almost separated the two sides a long time ago, about two hundred million years ago. At that time, it might have made life unpleasant for a few reptiles and fish, but now?

So here it is, on May 14th, 1999 a large earthquake occurs under Lake Ontario, causing the fault line to separate a few feet and the basin to drop about one hundred feet. While this isn't much, aftershocks continue along the St. Lawrence Valley and west towards the Georgian Bay of Lake Huron. Damage to Toronto is immense with many casualties, as well as other cities bordering the lake (Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester and Watertown, all in New York State).
The St. Lawrence Seaway is unusable, if not destroyed, as are most bridges in the region (Thousand Islands and other bridges over the St. Lawrence)
Over the next few years, the plates keep separating, a few inches to a few feet at a time, until a channel forms between Lakes Huron and Ontario. When this happens, a flood occurs as Lake Huron is 331 feet higher than Lake Ontario. This causes a huge amount of erosion and diverts all water away from entering Lake Erie. No water in Lake Erie means that Niagara Falls becomes Niagara Cliff and the power generation of both sides of the channel stop.
As the flood between Huron and Ontario deepens the channel and relieves pressure to the fault line (probably the wrong words), the separation increases more quickly and continues to Lake Superior (600 feet above sea level), pouring more water into the rift valley.

My question is this, what happens next? The major economic hub of eastern Canada is gone, as well as commerce and manufacturing. Do the French-Canadians (also damaged by devastation to Montreal and Quebec City) opt to try it on their own? Does western Canada try to consolidate to themselves? Without the two major power generation stations, what happens to America?

So many questions, so little time.

Regards,
John Braungart
Don Phillipson
2017-07-12 12:20:06 UTC
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. . . a possible WI.
. . . Over the next few years, the plates keep separating, a few inches to
a few feet at a time, until a channel forms between Lakes Huron and
Ontario. . . . the separation increases more quickly and continues to
Lake Superior (600 feet above sea level), pouring more water into the
rift valley.
. . . Do the French-Canadians (also damaged by devastation to Montreal
and Quebec City) opt to try it on their own? . . .
Without the two major power generation stations, what happens to America?
1: Plate tectonics. The St. Lawrence line is a fault, not a rift between
tectonic
plates. So there are earthquakes, but not of the magnitude suggested.
It could not happen.
2. Geotechnics (if it did happen.) I think no prior event "causing the .
. . basin
to drop about one hundred feet" has ever been discovered. This is three or
four times more than the most cataclysmic change known in N.America.
An event that caused any rock bed to move 100 feet would level every
city within 1000 miles (and most survivors would probably starve in
the first year.) Options like Quebec separatism appear non-functional.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
jerry kraus
2017-07-12 13:12:23 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
. . . a possible WI.
. . . Over the next few years, the plates keep separating, a few inches to
a few feet at a time, until a channel forms between Lakes Huron and
Ontario. . . . the separation increases more quickly and continues to
Lake Superior (600 feet above sea level), pouring more water into the
rift valley.
. . . Do the French-Canadians (also damaged by devastation to Montreal
and Quebec City) opt to try it on their own? . . .
Without the two major power generation stations, what happens to America?
1: Plate tectonics. The St. Lawrence line is a fault, not a rift between
tectonic
plates. So there are earthquakes, but not of the magnitude suggested.
It could not happen.
2. Geotechnics (if it did happen.) I think no prior event "causing the .
. . basin
to drop about one hundred feet" has ever been discovered. This is three or
four times more than the most cataclysmic change known in N.America.
An event that caused any rock bed to move 100 feet would level every
city within 1000 miles (and most survivors would probably starve in
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Don Phillipson
the first year.) Options like Quebec separatism appear non-functional.
Don, the problem Americans have with the concept of "Quebec Separatism" is that they think Quebec really wants to separate. Actually, Quebec simply wants to reverse the results of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham and for Canada to be, once again, entirely French.
Post by Don Phillipson
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The Old Man
2017-07-12 22:49:20 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
. . . a possible WI.
. . . Over the next few years, the plates keep separating, a few inches to
a few feet at a time, until a channel forms between Lakes Huron and
Ontario. . . . the separation increases more quickly and continues to
Lake Superior (600 feet above sea level), pouring more water into the
rift valley.
. . . Do the French-Canadians (also damaged by devastation to Montreal
and Quebec City) opt to try it on their own? . . .
Without the two major power generation stations, what happens to America?
1: Plate tectonics. The St. Lawrence line is a fault, not a rift between
tectonic
plates. So there are earthquakes, but not of the magnitude suggested.
It could not happen.
2. Geotechnics (if it did happen.) I think no prior event "causing the .
. . basin
to drop about one hundred feet" has ever been discovered. This is three or
four times more than the most cataclysmic change known in N.America.
An event that caused any rock bed to move 100 feet would level every
city within 1000 miles (and most survivors would probably starve in
the first year.) Options like Quebec separatism appear non-functional.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Don - I know what you're saying and while I agree that it's what we've been told for a long time, as a Google search will show the nice big North American plate, the Nova program on PBS indicated that it's possible that instead of one huge plate, the North American plate might be made up of dozens of smaller plates, explaining why some areas far away from the edges of these plates still get earthquakes.
What the Nova program told was that there was a separate plate that covered the entire East Coast of the United States and that this plate almost separated from the rest of the North American plate at one time what had stopped it was (in the narrator's words) a "Group Hug" from surrounding plates, holding it in position until when they slid off, it had been (for want of a better term) spot welded back in place.
My WI questions the results of that "weld" cracking and the smaller plate sliding off as it almost did so long ago.

Regards,
John Braungart
jerry kraus
2017-07-12 13:02:08 UTC
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Post by The Old Man
I've been batting this one around for a while and think I might have latched onto a possible WI.
Lake Ontario (of the Great Lakes for non-Western Hemisphere folks) has been having problems with flooding of its banks this year. In addition, there have been minor (and deep) earthquakes for a while. Some time ago, I saw on a Nature Channel show about the Great Lakes that both Lakes Ontario and Superior are believed to be part of a Rift Valley, although parts of the same one weren't clear - for this posit, let's assume that they are. This Rift Valley continues up the St. Lawrence Channel to the east and appears to connect to the Mississippi River area (think New Madrid area) and very nearly almost separated the two sides a long time ago, about two hundred million years ago. At that time, it might have made life unpleasant for a few reptiles and fish, but now?
So here it is, on May 14th, 1999 a large earthquake occurs under Lake Ontario, causing the fault line to separate a few feet and the basin to drop about one hundred feet. While this isn't much, aftershocks continue along the St. Lawrence Valley and west towards the Georgian Bay of Lake Huron. Damage to Toronto is immense with many casualties, as well as other cities bordering the lake (Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester and Watertown, all in New York State).
The St. Lawrence Seaway is unusable, if not destroyed, as are most bridges in the region (Thousand Islands and other bridges over the St. Lawrence)
Over the next few years, the plates keep separating, a few inches to a few feet at a time, until a channel forms between Lakes Huron and Ontario. When this happens, a flood occurs as Lake Huron is 331 feet higher than Lake Ontario. This causes a huge amount of erosion and diverts all water away from entering Lake Erie. No water in Lake Erie means that Niagara Falls becomes Niagara Cliff and the power generation of both sides of the channel stop.
As the flood between Huron and Ontario deepens the channel and relieves pressure to the fault line (probably the wrong words), the separation increases more quickly and continues to Lake Superior (600 feet above sea level), pouring more water into the rift valley.
My question is this, what happens next? The major economic hub of eastern Canada is gone, as well as commerce and manufacturing. Do the French-Canadians (also damaged by devastation to Montreal and Quebec City) opt to try it on their own? Does western Canada try to consolidate to themselves? Without the two major power generation stations, what happens to America?
So many questions, so little time.
Regards,
John Braungart
John, the utter demolition of Toronto could only lead to increased goodwill amongst Canadians, as a whole. There would be great rejoicing, coast to coast.
The Horny Goat
2017-07-13 06:00:57 UTC
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), jerry kraus
John, the utter demolition of Toronto could only lead to increased goodwill=
amongst Canadians, as a whole. There would be great rejoicing, coast to =
coast.
It would be a bad thing economically for Canada and would likely cost
me most of my in-laws who are scattered between Mississauga and
Hamilton.

For sure Canadians love to hate Toronto in the same way Americans
think about New York City but if it actually came to 9 million people
dying I think most Canadians would think that's a bad thing though how
you eliminate Toronto without also eliminating Montreal in such a
disaster is beyond me.
The Old Man
2017-07-13 10:17:03 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT), jerry kraus
John, the utter demolition of Toronto could only lead to increased goodwill=
amongst Canadians, as a whole. There would be great rejoicing, coast to =
coast.
It would be a bad thing economically for Canada and would likely cost
me most of my in-laws who are scattered between Mississauga and
Hamilton.
For sure Canadians love to hate Toronto in the same way Americans
think about New York City but if it actually came to 9 million people
dying I think most Canadians would think that's a bad thing though how
you eliminate Toronto without also eliminating Montreal in such a
disaster is beyond me.
Mostly because I wasn't thinking about the eastern part of this rift. I agree that Montreal and Quebec City would suffer more damage to total elimination than I posted. Over all, the body count would be horrific. On the south side of the rift, the devastation would also go down in varying degrees for several hundred miles as well.
One of the things that would hurt would be the loss of the Niagara Power Visa and the Adam Beck station on the Canadian side. Without that electrical power, recovery would be hampered, if not impossible.

Regards,
John Braungart
Pete Barrett
2017-07-12 18:23:30 UTC
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Post by The Old Man
My question is this, what happens next?
There's a bloody great hole for the water to go when the ice caps melt, so
the climate change sceptics say it proves there wasn't and isn't any need to
do anything.
--
Pete BARRETT
jerry kraus
2017-07-12 19:27:26 UTC
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Post by Pete Barrett
Post by The Old Man
My question is this, what happens next?
There's a bloody great hole for the water to go when the ice caps melt, so
the climate change sceptics say it proves there wasn't and isn't any need to
do anything.
--
Pete BARRETT
Yes indeed, Pete, and quite right too. This is a very complex system, we simply don't understand all the checks and balances in place here.
Don Phillipson
2017-07-12 23:08:40 UTC
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Post by jerry kraus
Post by Pete Barrett
There's a bloody great hole for the water to go when the ice caps melt, so
the climate change sceptics say it proves there wasn't and isn't any need to
do anything.
Yes indeed, Pete, and quite right too. This is a very complex system, we
simply don't understand all the checks and balances in place here.
--Except that we have not yet discovered any "checks and
balances" characteristic of geotechnical changes.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
The Horny Goat
2017-07-13 06:02:37 UTC
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:27:26 -0700 (PDT), jerry kraus
Post by jerry kraus
Post by Pete Barrett
There's a bloody great hole for the water to go when the ice caps melt, so
the climate change sceptics say it proves there wasn't and isn't any need to
do anything.
--
Pete BARRETT
Yes indeed, Pete, and quite right too. This is a very complex system, we simply don't understand all the checks and balances in place here.
No question I regreat the demise of the CANADIANS FOR GLOBAL WARMING
web site - it was an extremely funny website full of things like the
Tuktoyaktuk Riviera and that vein. (For those who don't know the berg
in question it's on the Arctic ocean)
t***@go.com
2017-07-13 16:51:10 UTC
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Post by The Old Man
I've been batting this one around for a while and think I might have latched onto a possible WI.
Lake Ontario (of the Great Lakes for non-Western Hemisphere folks) has been having problems with flooding of its banks this year. In addition, there have been minor (and deep) earthquakes for a while. Some time ago, I saw on a Nature Channel show about the Great Lakes that both Lakes Ontario and Superior are believed to be part of a Rift Valley, although parts of the same one weren't clear - for this posit, let's assume that they are. This Rift Valley continues up the St. Lawrence Channel to the east and appears to connect to the Mississippi River area (think New Madrid area) and very nearly almost separated the two sides a long time ago, about two hundred million years ago. At that time, it might have made life unpleasant for a few reptiles and fish, but now?
So here it is, on May 14th, 1999 a large earthquake occurs under Lake Ontario, causing the fault line to separate a few feet and the basin to drop about one hundred feet. While this isn't much, aftershocks continue along the St. Lawrence Valley and west towards the Georgian Bay of Lake Huron. Damage to Toronto is immense with many casualties, as well as other cities bordering the lake (Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester and Watertown, all in New York State).
The St. Lawrence Seaway is unusable, if not destroyed, as are most bridges in the region (Thousand Islands and other bridges over the St. Lawrence)
Over the next few years, the plates keep separating, a few inches to a few feet at a time, until a channel forms between Lakes Huron and Ontario. When this happens, a flood occurs as Lake Huron is 331 feet higher than Lake Ontario. This causes a huge amount of erosion and diverts all water away from entering Lake Erie. No water in Lake Erie means that Niagara Falls becomes Niagara Cliff and the power generation of both sides of the channel stop.
As the flood between Huron and Ontario deepens the channel and relieves pressure to the fault line (probably the wrong words), the separation increases more quickly and continues to Lake Superior (600 feet above sea level), pouring more water into the rift valley.
My question is this, what happens next? The major economic hub of eastern Canada is gone, as well as commerce and manufacturing. Do the French-Canadians (also damaged by devastation to Montreal and Quebec City) opt to try it on their own? Does western Canada try to consolidate to themselves? Without the two major power generation stations, what happens to America?
So many questions, so little time.
Regards,
John Braungart
I get the idea that the earthquake might not be
mild.

If it were however, Canada might come together because
of the natural disaster, and after the dams were built
on the new channel, it might be figured out that this
might not need to be shared with the U.S.

Toronto might figure out that more ships might pass
near Toronto, and Detroit would become more of a
rust belt. Eventually litigation might or might
not result in equal amounts of water being sent
through the new channel and through Niagra falls.

If it did not happen in the past, however, someone
might read this usenet thread and decide to build
a long pipe between lake Huron and lake Ontario
under Toronto and use it to generate electric power.

It is hard to say if litigation would ever shut it
down.

Either way, if somehow the channel were opened
with only a mild earthquake it could turn out to
be a good thing for both Toronto and Canada.
The Horny Goat
2017-07-17 04:06:34 UTC
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So here it is, on May 14th, 1999 a large earthquake occurs under Lake Ont=
ario, causing the fault line to separate a few feet and the basin to drop a=
bout one hundred feet. While this isn't much, aftershocks continue along th=
e St. Lawrence Valley and west towards the Georgian Bay of Lake Huron. Dama=
ge to Toronto is immense with many casualties, as well as other cities bord=
ering the lake (Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester and Watertown, all in New=
York State).
My whole point in mentioning Montreal and Quebec city in this scenario
is that inevitably a massive tsunami would go straight down the St
Lawrence River valley to the sea.

I toured the Ganonoque / Thousand Isles area some years ago and they
were discussing at length the flooding of hundreds of farms during the
St Lawrence Seaway construction - this would be far far worse than
that.

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