Discussion:
ASBs make US declare war on Germany in August 1914
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Rob
2017-07-15 16:54:08 UTC
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ASB mind control takes over Wilson and the Congressional majority in August 1914, causing America to declare war on Germany.

But not for the purposes of "making the war safe for democracy", "ending all wars" or more selfish reasons, rather the ASBs supply more selfish objectives to the Americans.

Even if the Americans use the invasion of Belgium as an excuse, they have no intention at all at this time to send troops or ships to Europe.

Rather their objectives, are to have an excuse to seize Germany's Pacific colonies (instead of anybody else doing it) and excuse to seize German owned property in America, and to make money selling to the Allies.

The U.S. sends units of its Pacific and Asiatic fleets to Micronesia, trying to occupy the territory while not not trying particularly hard to bring the Germans to battle unless it looks tactically advantageous.

America could seek to occupy a range of objectives. On the small end, the Marshalls, Carolines and Palaus, while throwing the Japanese a bone to the north (the Marianas) and the British Commonwealth a bone to the south (German New Guinea & Samoa and Nauru). On the large end, the Americans could seek all of German Pacific territories and Qingdao, leaving none for Japan or the British Commonwealth.
A middle end idea could be just going for all Germany's Pacific islands, north and south of the equator.

Once this is accomplished, and competing claimants on the German Pacific are warned off of grabbing anything America wants, there is not much warfighting to do for the Americans.

The Americans cannot send anyone to participate in the Battle of the Marne, and after the Battle of the Marne the Americans will assume the Entente will win the war in Europe by itself. Like Japan in OTL, it is just profiting by bandwagoning on to the stronger side.

Of course American property in Germany is seized in retaliation for American measures but the US figures it is getting more out of the mutual thievery and can get its property restored or at least get its citzens claims compensated for by seized German assets.

From this point forward, the Germans will also of course feel they have nothing to lose by conducting both surface commerce raiding and unrestricted U-Boat warfare against any ships supplying the Allies.

The Americans can be ambiguous about their endgame for the war, with annexation of occupied German territories as an option but also the option of holding the German Pacific territories as collateral for securing a German withdrawal from poor little Belgium and France, at least in America's rhetoric.

After this, the ASBs pretty much let things take their course. Do the Americans make a separate peace with the Germans and vice versa some months later?

Do the Entente powers tighten the blockade earlier?

When do the Entente powers start screaming that they want and need U.S. troops to resist, turn back and finish off the Germans?

When, if ever, does the U.S. come to agree to send troops and judge it is worth it to do so?

Before any American ground units are sent to Europe, how big a movement of American volunteers to fight in the Entente armies in Europe occurs, and how fast?

When is the war likely to end, and how?
Don Phillipson
2017-07-15 18:07:33 UTC
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Post by Rob
ASB mind control takes over Wilson and the Congressional majority in
August
1914, causing America to declare war on Germany.
1. No legal casus belli.
2. As late as October 1914 all belligerents expected the war
to be decisively over by Xmas 1914. No US expeditionary
force could be raised in August 1914 and trained and equipped
and deployed in Europe before the fighting was expected to end.
(No one thought in 1914 the USN could add any strength to the
large British and French navies.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Rob
2017-07-18 03:01:31 UTC
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Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Rob
ASB mind control takes over Wilson and the Congressional majority in
August
1914, causing America to declare war on Germany.
1. No legal casus belli.
2. As late as October 1914 all belligerents expected the war
to be decisively over by Xmas 1914. No US expeditionary
force could be raised in August 1914 and trained and equipped
and deployed in Europe before the fighting was expected to end.
(No one thought in 1914 the USN could add any strength to the
large British and French navies.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
As usual, your post indicates you did not read past the title or the first line, and in fact you overlooked or could not grasp the significance of the first two words of the title.
Insane Ranter
2017-07-16 18:42:53 UTC
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Since this is ASB territory and Wilson and Congress are controlled by the irrational ASBs.

Since its still 1914 and at Aug the US still holds Veracruz from the Tampico Affair can we get a knock off effect of a Zimmerman telegraph to Mexico from Germany then? To help keep the Americans home to fight in Mexico for a couple of years at least?

I'm not sure Mexico would be in a position still to want or think they could win a war with the US but maybe since its still so early German is able to ship military supplies, to funds Huerta Mexican government?

I think this is a stretch getting Mexico in and delaying the Americans a couple of years till 1916 with Troops in Europe.
Rich Rostrom
2017-07-17 06:29:40 UTC
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Post by Insane Ranter
Since this is ASB territory and Wilson and Congress
are controlled by the irrational ASBs.
Since its still 1914 and at Aug the US still holds
Veracruz from the Tampico Affair can we get a knock
off effect of a Zimmerman telegraph to Mexico from
Germany then? To help keep the Americans home to
fight in Mexico for a couple of years at least?
No. The ZT was sent because Germany expected the US
to declare war over renewed U-boat war. There is no
way to bootstrap into an alt-ZT being the initial
cause of war.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.

http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
Insane Ranter
2017-07-17 12:50:34 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
Post by Insane Ranter
Since this is ASB territory and Wilson and Congress
are controlled by the irrational ASBs.
Since its still 1914 and at Aug the US still holds
Veracruz from the Tampico Affair can we get a knock
off effect of a Zimmerman telegraph to Mexico from
Germany then? To help keep the Americans home to
fight in Mexico for a couple of years at least?
No. The ZT was sent because Germany expected the US
to declare war over renewed U-boat war. There is no
way to bootstrap into an alt-ZT being the initial
cause of war.
--
The real Velvet Revolution - and the would-be hijacker.
http://originalvelvetrevolution.com
I wasn't sure. Just a long shot I suppose.
Rob
2017-07-18 03:10:30 UTC
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Post by Insane Ranter
Since this is ASB territory and Wilson and Congress are controlled by the irrational ASBs.
Since its still 1914 and at Aug the US still holds Veracruz from the Tampico Affair can we get a knock off effect of a Zimmerman telegraph to Mexico from Germany then? To help keep the Americans home to fight in Mexico for a couple of years at least?
I'm not sure Mexico would be in a position still to want or think they could win a war with the US but maybe since its still so early German is able to ship military supplies, to funds Huerta Mexican government?
I think this is a stretch getting Mexico in and delaying the Americans a couple of years till 1916 with Troops in Europe.
Rich is right that an alt-ZT would not be a cause of war, but I don't think Insane Ranter was considering it a cause, rather he sees it as an effect.

What Huerta and other Mexican politicians think they can get away with is one consideration, but sure, to the best of their ability, after suffering from unprovoked American aggression and declared war, Germany and Germans in Latin America will work to the best of their limited ability to use Mexico as vehicle to pay back and irritate the Americans.

If the Mexicans' own anger, and German encouragement and promises, cause Mexican factions to be more brave than wise and lead to more confrontation and needling of the Americans, the US could find itself in an escalating quagmire.
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