Discussion:
Plausibility Check: A new German capital in Czechia?
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WolfBear
2018-04-21 01:18:04 UTC
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Basically, there are two ways for this scenario to work:

The first scenario involves Germany allying with Russia and partitioning Austria-Hungary together with Russia, Serbia, Romania, and perhaps Italy in an alternate World War I. After the German-Russian alliance wins this alternate World War I, Germany annexes German Austria, Czechia, Pressburg/Bratislava, the Burgenland, and perhaps Slovenia as well. Afterwards, in order to Germanize Czechia, Germany decides to relocate its capital to somewhere in Czechia. This is also a vanity project for the German Kaiser.

The second scenario involves Hitler dying in mid-1939 and having his successor Goering cancel the planned German invasion of Poland. In this scenario, Germany already has Czechia--which it then proceeds to outright annex. Afterwards, in order to Germanize Czechia, Germany decides to relocate its capital to somewhere in Czechia. This is also a vanity project for Hermann Goering.

Anyway, how plausible is this and which city in Czechia would make the best capital for a Greater Germany?

Any thoughts on this?
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-23 05:15:28 UTC
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Anyway, how plausible is this...
Not at all. Hard enough to get Germany to
erect a wholly new capital city, and _very_
hard to get it placed in a non-German area.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Rhino
2018-04-24 16:00:01 UTC
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Post by Rich Rostrom
Anyway, how plausible is this...
Not at all. Hard enough to get Germany to
erect a wholly new capital city, and _very_
hard to get it placed in a non-German area.
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory. Mind you, I'm reluctant
to assert that as a fact because there's been a lot of history and I'm
not up on most of it....
--
Rhino
g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
2018-04-24 17:02:08 UTC
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Post by Rhino
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory.
Prussia :-)

Apat from that, Portugal, Lithuania (de facto, if not de iure), Ottoman
empire, China
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Rhino
2018-04-24 19:56:42 UTC
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Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Rhino
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory.
Prussia :-)
Berlin was always the capital of Prussia wasn't it? And when was Berlin
*not* in Prussia?
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Apat from that, Portugal, Lithuania (de facto, if not de iure), Ottoman
empire, China
Was Lisbon part of some other country before it was the Portuguese
capital? Or Vilnius? I know China has had several different capitals
over the centuries but which of them were in formerly foreign countries?

As for the Ottoman Empire, I believe Istanbul/Constantinople was the
capital before Ankara but was Ankara ever not part of the Ottoman Empire?
--
Rhino
Robert Woodward
2018-04-25 05:20:09 UTC
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Post by Rhino
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Rhino
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory.
Prussia :-)
Berlin was always the capital of Prussia wasn't it? And when was Berlin
*not* in Prussia?
When it was the capital of Brandenburg. Prussia didn't conqueror
Brandenburg; the Margrave of Brandenburg inherited the Duchy of Prussia.
Post by Rhino
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Apat from that, Portugal, Lithuania (de facto, if not de iure), Ottoman
empire, China
Was Lisbon part of some other country before it was the Portuguese
capital? Or Vilnius? I know China has had several different capitals
over the centuries but which of them were in formerly foreign countries?
What later became the kingdom of Portugal started as a small district in
the north of the current country. Eventually, the reconquest advanced
far enough south, that Lisbon became the capital. For that matter,
during the French invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, the royal family
relocated to Brazil.
Post by Rhino
As for the Ottoman Empire, I believe Istanbul/Constantinople was the
capital before Ankara but was Ankara ever not part of the Ottoman Empire?
The Ottomans used several different cities in Asia Minor and Greece as
their capital as they conquered more and more of the Byzantine empire.
After they captured Constantinople in 1453, it became their capital.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-25 22:29:54 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
When it was the capital of Brandenburg. Prussia didn't conqueror
Brandenburg; the Margrave of Brandenburg inherited the Duchy of Prussia.
But Berlin did not become the capital of Prussia. Until the
dissolution of the HRE, Prussia and Brandenburg were separate
realms under a union of crowns. Berlin was the de facto capitol
of both, but not de jure capital of Prussia. When the post-HRE
Kingdom of Prussia was created, including Brandenburg, it was
really the consolidation of Prussia into Brandenburg.
Post by Robert Woodward
What later became the kingdom of Portugal started as a small district in
the north of the current country. Eventually, the reconquest advanced
far enough south, that Lisbon became the capital.
I believe that was also true for Castile; Madrid was Moorish
territory until 1085.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Robert Woodward
2018-04-24 17:19:25 UTC
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Post by Rhino
Post by Rich Rostrom
Anyway, how plausible is this...
Not at all. Hard enough to get Germany to
erect a wholly new capital city, and _very_
hard to get it placed in a non-German area.
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory. Mind you, I'm reluctant
to assert that as a fact because there's been a lot of history and I'm
not up on most of it....
Two of the Chinese dynasties were foreign conquerors. First, came the
Mongols. I don't know about Kublai Khan, but his descendants had their
capital in Beijing. Also, the Qing (aka Manchu), started in the Liaodong
province, revolted against Ming rule, conquered China, and thereafter
used the Ming capital (Beijing) as its own.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Rhino
2018-04-24 20:01:43 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Rhino
Post by Rich Rostrom
Anyway, how plausible is this...
Not at all. Hard enough to get Germany to
erect a wholly new capital city, and _very_
hard to get it placed in a non-German area.
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory. Mind you, I'm reluctant
to assert that as a fact because there's been a lot of history and I'm
not up on most of it....
Two of the Chinese dynasties were foreign conquerors. First, came the
Mongols. I don't know about Kublai Khan, but his descendants had their
capital in Beijing. Also, the Qing (aka Manchu), started in the Liaodong
province, revolted against Ming rule, conquered China, and thereafter
used the Ming capital (Beijing) as its own.
Okay, I see the logic now. Whatever Kublai Khan's capital was before
conquering China - Ulan Bator? Xanadu? - was replaced by Beijing
afterwards. Yeah, okay, I'll buy that.

I'm not so sure I'd buy the Liadong example. That sounds more like a
coup d'etat if the people of Liadong considered themselves Chinese.
Ditto for Mao Zedong who essentially forced the Nationalist government
out and moved the capital for Chungking to Beijing: both Mao and Chiang
Kai Shek considered themselves Chinese as I understand it. Mao wasn't a
foreigner who conquered China from outside.
--
Rhino
g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
2018-04-25 14:13:13 UTC
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Post by Rhino
Ditto for Mao Zedong who essentially forced the Nationalist government
out and moved the capital for Chungking to Beijing
Good entrée - Republic of China moved its capital to Taipei. Well, kind
of. Anyway, Formosa was not part of the country before that.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Rhino
2018-04-25 20:42:53 UTC
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Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Rhino
Ditto for Mao Zedong who essentially forced the Nationalist government
out and moved the capital for Chungking to Beijing
Good entrée - Republic of China moved its capital to Taipei. Well, kind
of. Anyway, Formosa was not part of the country before that.
Formosa has a lot more complicated history than you're acknowledging :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

In a nutshell, Taiwan was annexed by the Qing dynasty a few centuries
back, then was ceded to Japan in the 20th century, then Japan gave it up
- but without specifying who was to be the new owner - in 1952, by which
time Chiang Kai Chek had already established the remnants of the
Republic of China there.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2018-04-25 19:53:40 UTC
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On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:01:43 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Okay, I see the logic now. Whatever Kublai Khan's capital was before
conquering China - Ulan Bator? Xanadu? - was replaced by Beijing
afterwards. Yeah, okay, I'll buy that.
I'm not so sure I'd buy the Liadong example. That sounds more like a
coup d'etat if the people of Liadong considered themselves Chinese.
Ditto for Mao Zedong who essentially forced the Nationalist government
out and moved the capital for Chungking to Beijing: both Mao and Chiang
Kai Shek considered themselves Chinese as I understand it. Mao wasn't a
foreigner who conquered China from outside.
Canada's capital was taken during the war of 1812 but that was
pre-independence days. Queen Victoria chose the site of Ottawa as she
wanted a capital that couldn't be taken on the first day of the war -
unfortunately she did it on a map and the colonials had to build a
capital on a muskeg swamp.

Some political analysts would say Ottawa still is but that's
figurative rather than literal.
Rhino
2018-04-25 20:46:13 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:01:43 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Okay, I see the logic now. Whatever Kublai Khan's capital was before
conquering China - Ulan Bator? Xanadu? - was replaced by Beijing
afterwards. Yeah, okay, I'll buy that.
I'm not so sure I'd buy the Liadong example. That sounds more like a
coup d'etat if the people of Liadong considered themselves Chinese.
Ditto for Mao Zedong who essentially forced the Nationalist government
out and moved the capital for Chungking to Beijing: both Mao and Chiang
Kai Shek considered themselves Chinese as I understand it. Mao wasn't a
foreigner who conquered China from outside.
Canada's capital was taken during the war of 1812 but that was
pre-independence days.
That was when the capital was Kingston, if I recall correctly.
Post by The Horny Goat
Queen Victoria chose the site of Ottawa as she
wanted a capital that couldn't be taken on the first day of the war -
unfortunately she did it on a map and the colonials had to build a
capital on a muskeg swamp.
Some political analysts would say Ottawa still is but that's
figurative rather than literal.
What is it with capitals and swamps? It seems to me that Washington DC
was also built on a swamp as was St. Petersburg (Russia) which was the
capital of Russia before it was moved to Moscow late in WW I....
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2018-04-26 00:30:36 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 16:46:13 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Canada's capital was taken during the war of 1812 but that was
pre-independence days.
That was when the capital was Kingston, if I recall correctly.
Correct. The Government recommended that in light of the War of 1812
the capital SHOULDN'T be on the St Lawrence as that was vulnerable to
attack with Victoria left to make the final traditon.

My daughter (a Carleton alumna) says that the weather there turned to
crap 'around midterm examinations' and didn't get good again until the
middle of finals (e.g. right about now) and that she heard that in
Macdonald's time the area was renowned for mosquitoes.

Just the kind of capital Peter the Great would have loved!

Ottawans swear the story about hockey games on the frozen Rideau River
involving 5 mile breakaways aren't legendary but actually have
happened. Which is rather remarkable for a city only at 45N (rather
further south of Vancouver which being on the coast has a much milder
climate!)
Rich Rostrom
2018-04-25 22:35:35 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
Two of the Chinese dynasties were foreign
conquerors. First, came the Mongols. I don't know
about Kublai Khan, but his descendants had their
capital in Beijing.
The original Mongol capital was Karakorum in
Mongolia. Kublai Khan relocated the capital
to Shangtu, NW of Beijing, and then to "Khanbaliq",
now Beijing.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Pete Barrett
2018-04-25 10:22:13 UTC
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Post by Rhino
Agreed. I'm at a loss to think of any country EVER that moved it's
capital to what was formerly foreign territory. Mind you, I'm reluctant
to assert that as a fact because there's been a lot of history and I'm
not up on most of it....
The most obvious example is the capital of the Roman Empire, when it
moved from Rome to Constantinople. Granted, Byzantium had been part of
the Roman Empire for a long time (at least 200 years, depending on the
definition of 'part of'), but it hadn't always been so, and the area
wasn't Latin-speaking.
--
Pete BARRETT
The Horny Goat
2018-04-25 19:54:29 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 10:22:13 +0000 (UTC), Pete Barrett
Post by Pete Barrett
The most obvious example is the capital of the Roman Empire, when it
moved from Rome to Constantinople. Granted, Byzantium had been part of
the Roman Empire for a long time (at least 200 years, depending on the
definition of 'part of'), but it hadn't always been so, and the area
wasn't Latin-speaking.
Don't forget the western Roman Empire also moved their capital to
Ravenna before the end.
Don P
2018-05-10 22:46:10 UTC
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The first scenario involves Germany allying with Russia and partitioning Austria-Hungary together with Russia, Serbia, Romania, and perhaps Italy in an alternate World War I. After the German-Russian alliance wins this alternate World War I, Germany annexes German Austria, Czechia, Pressburg/Bratislava, the Burgenland, and perhaps Slovenia as well. Afterwards, in order to Germanize Czechia, Germany decides to relocate its capital to somewhere in Czechia. This is also a vanity project for the German Kaiser. . . .
Anyway, how plausible is this and which city in Czechia would make the best capital for a Greater Germany?
Any thoughts on this?
Two main differences persist:
1. The German ruling class (both Prussian and not) wanted the German
state to be unambiguously German (and promoted the cultural absorbtion
of Wends, Sorbs and other old-fashioned minorities.) By contrast, the
Austro-Hungarian empire was always a multiracial and multilingual
organization, and even reconciled in the 19th century to being
multinational and multidenominational too.
2. When assembling the German Empire Bismarck did not want too many
Roman Catholics, never enough to have a chance of outvoting all
varieties of Protestant party. The annexations proposed above would
reverse this policy.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ontario, Canada)
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