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AHC: Ottoman Empire finishes WWI with most of the fertile crescent retained
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Rob
2017-09-30 18:46:39 UTC
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Here's the challenge, have the Ottoman Empire finishing its participation in WWI, and keeping post-war, most of the Fertile Crescent, losing only its provinces directly connected to the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf to British Empire forces. Borders illustrated in blue in the graphic at link here:



You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also be in through the end of the war, or exit it early.

https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
SolomonW
2017-09-30 23:35:48 UTC
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Post by Rob
You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also be in through the end of the war, or exit it early.
https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
Well this would happen if Turkey did not enter WW1, which is a plausible
POD.
Rob
2017-10-01 01:22:41 UTC
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Post by SolomonW
Post by Rob
You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also be in through the end of the war, or exit it early.
https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
Well this would happen if Turkey did not enter WW1, which is a plausible
POD.
In the map at link though, the British have detached Hijaz, Aqaba, and the vilayet of Basra from the Ottomans, locking the Ottomans out of the Red Sea and Persian Gulf.
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-10-01 09:45:35 UTC
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Post by Rob
Post by SolomonW
Post by Rob
Here's the challenge, have the Ottoman Empire finishing its participation
in WWI, and keeping post-war, most of the Fertile Crescent, losing only its
provinces directly connected to the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf to British
You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double
your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also be
in through the end of the war, or exit it early.
https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
Well this would happen if Turkey did not enter WW1, which is a plausible
POD.
In the map at link though, the British have detached Hijaz, Aqaba, and the
vilayet of Basra from the Ottomans, locking the Ottomans out of the Red Sea
and Persian Gulf.
Actually the Ottoman garrison at Medinah held out throughout the war,
surrendering only after the ceasefire.

Anyway, that could happen if the Ottomans (especially Cemal Pasha) were
not so heavy handed withh the Arabs (Cemal is more intelligent in this
timeline), sued for a sepearate peace and the British and French were
hopelessly deadlocked (Sykes and Picot are less skilled diplomats in
this timeline) as to how to divide the Levant and Iraq. The result
would be that the Ottomans would give both massive concessions to both
in those areas so that they both would effectively run the show with
nominal Ottoman authority because the two couldn't agree how to carve
it up.
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-10-01 09:49:35 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Rob
Post by SolomonW
Post by Rob
Here's the challenge, have the Ottoman Empire finishing its participation
in WWI, and keeping post-war, most of the Fertile Crescent, losing only
its provinces directly connected to the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf to
British Empire forces. Borders illustrated in blue in the graphic at link
You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double
your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also
be in through the end of the war, or exit it early.
https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
Well this would happen if Turkey did not enter WW1, which is a plausible
POD.
In the map at link though, the British have detached Hijaz, Aqaba, and the
vilayet of Basra from the Ottomans, locking the Ottomans out of the Red Sea
and Persian Gulf.
Actually the Ottoman garrison at Medinah held out throughout the war,
surrendering only after the ceasefire.
So in the ATL the British and Sherif Husayn^s forces make the mistake
of concentrating forces to take Medinah and other fixed positions in
the Hljaz instead of the correct decision of bypassing them (Lawrence
is less intelligent in this timeline).
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Anyway, that could happen if the Ottomans (especially Cemal Pasha) were not
so heavy handed withh the Arabs (Cemal is more intelligent in this timeline),
sued for a sepearate peace and the British and French were hopelessly
deadlocked (Sykes and Picot are less skilled diplomats in this timeline) as
to how to divide the Levant and Iraq. The result would be that the Ottomans
would give both massive concessions to both in those areas so that they both
would effectively run the show with nominal Ottoman authority because the two
couldn't agree how to carve it up.
Pete Barrett
2017-10-01 15:10:54 UTC
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Post by Rob
Here's the challenge, have the Ottoman Empire finishing its
participation in WWI, and keeping post-war, most of the Fertile
Crescent, losing only its provinces directly connected to the Red Sea
and the Persian Gulf to British Empire forces. Borders illustrated in
You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double
your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also
be in through the end of the war, or exit it early.
https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
The Ottomans join WW1 on the side of the Entente. After the defeat of the
Central Powers, Britain leases the oil-producing regions of Basra from
the Ottoman Empire, and the Ottomans recognise the independence of the
Gulf States (as British protectorates) and the Hejaz (areas which had
been pacified by British Indian forces while the Ottoman army was
involved elsewhere), receiving territorial compensation in the Caucasus
from the collapsed Russian Empire.

(The compensation doesn't look equivalent on the map, but when you
consider that Basra is technically still part of the Ottoman Empire (and
they're being paid for it), and that the Gulf States were practically
independent anyway, it's really only the Hejaz they're losing. And the
Hejaz would be subject to Arab nationalist revolts, while the area in the
Caucasus (roughly equivalent to modern Turkey's borders) may be more
amenable.)
--
Pete BARRETT
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-10-02 14:47:56 UTC
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Post by Pete Barrett
Post by Rob
Here's the challenge, have the Ottoman Empire finishing its
participation in WWI, and keeping post-war, most of the Fertile
Crescent, losing only its provinces directly connected to the Red Sea
and the Persian Gulf to British Empire forces. Borders illustrated in
You can vary the overall WWI settlement as much as you want, but double
your points the better the Entente does in Europe. The Ottomans can also
be in through the end of the war, or exit it early.
https://imgur.com/daJAJFi
The Ottomans join WW1 on the side of the Entente. After the defeat of the
Central Powers, Britain leases the oil-producing regions of Basra from
the Ottoman Empire, and the Ottomans recognise the independence of the
Gulf States (as British protectorates) and the Hejaz (areas which had
been pacified by British Indian forces while the Ottoman army was
involved elsewhere), receiving territorial compensation in the Caucasus
from the collapsed Russian Empire.
(The compensation doesn't look equivalent on the map, but when you
consider that Basra is technically still part of the Ottoman Empire (and
they're being paid for it), and that the Gulf States were practically
independent anyway, it's really only the Hejaz they're losing. And the
Hejaz would be subject to Arab nationalist revolts, while the area in the
Sharif Husayn was principally a conservative Islamist and his motives
were more conservative and selfish rather than nationalist, but he
later made common cause with the Arab nationalists of the Levant and
Iraq and incorporated some but not all of their ideas. The alliance was
an uneasy one. The Arab nationalists were secularizing and modernizing,
ideologically close to the Young Turks except on ethnic issues and
originally their comrades in arms.

Giving up the Hijaz is not an easy deal for the Ottomans. Possession of
the Hijaz, especially Mecca and Medinah, gave legitimacy to the
authority of the Sultan as Caliph, something even the secularizing
Young Turks were exploiting.

After the surrender in OTL the royalist Ottomans were quite willing
accept humiliating terms but still asked that the Ottoman (Turkish)
flag be flown over Mecca and Medina.
Post by Pete Barrett
Caucasus (roughly equivalent to modern Turkey's borders) may be more
amenable.)
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